E-190s at AWA/US Mainline?

[FDJ2]

Negotiating Committee Update - September 16, 2005
From: Mark Burdick, Negotiating Committee Chairman
To: All AWA Pilots

On behalf of your MEC and Negotiating Committee, I am pleased to announce that the final Transition Agreement passed during today's MEC meeting. The section regarding EMB 190 rates will go out to the membership for a ratification vote in accordance with MEC policy.

On Monday, we will distribute an analysis outlining the protections that have been captured with the agreement. Stay tuned for more details.

 

[Cactus73]

Yes,

They will be at mainline. We have to ratify the pay scales so it's not a done deal yet, but so far it doesn't look like Republic or anyone else will be flying 190's for us.

Pilots on the AAA/AWA seniority lists will fly these airplanes.

The line between mainline and regional has finally been drawn - albeit very late.

 

[Crzipilot]

Anyone seen the proposed pay rates?

 

[Pilotbob3]

Anyone seen the proposed pay rates?

Yes, they are $ 2.00/hr less than JetBlue.

 

[h25b]

At this point it's just nice to be getting these things to mainline. Pay rates are secondary, altough not unimportant.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Amen.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Yes, they are $ 2.00/hr less than JetBlue.

I believe the Capt Pay rate is $6.00 /hr MORE than "Jet Who?".......


PHXFLYR

 

[LittleDeuce]

190s at Mainline

Double AMEN

 

[Bigbeerbelly]

Can you imagine how different the industry would be today if all major airlines had kept their RJs (I know the 190 is not an RJ) on one seniority list? No race to the bottom.

BBB

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Duece,

I had heard a rumor that you went to JetBlue. Drop me a PM sometime.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I told you so.....

Yes,

The line between mainline and regional has finally been drawn - albeit very late.

No Cactus, the line hasn't been "drawn", it has only been further "blurred". Jetblue rates are LOWER than some regional 70 seat rates for captain. As I predicted, the "mainline" groups will start underbidding the regional rates to capture the flying. Maybe PCL128 can explain to me how this is a good thing. What good are more "mainline" jobs if they pay less than my lowly little "regional" job? Maybe we should start undercutting mainline to fly the 737, 757, and 777?

This is no surprise to many of us - we saw this coming. Regional guys WAKE UP! The mainline will do ANYTHING to protect it's own, even if it means undercutting the regionals. Start looking out for yourselves instead of kissing their a$$.

 

[JoeMerchant]

At this point it's just nice to be getting these things to mainline. Pay rates are secondary, altough not unimportant.

What is so magic about bestowing the title "mainline" on an aircraft if the payrates and workrules are equal to or lower than that of the regionals? If a regional group does this to get an aircraft, they are harassed. If a mainline group does this, they are heroes. Pure B$.

 

[Fly4hire]

On behalf of your MEC and Negotiating Committee, I am pleased to announce that the final Transition Agreement passed during today's MEC meeting. The section regarding EMB 190 rates will go out to the membership for a ratification vote in accordance with MEC policy.

Does anyone have access to the actual proposed contract sections that cover rates and work rules for the EMB-190?

 

[amcnd]

What will happen with Mesa's 90's???

 

[lowecur]

Isn't life grand. Just the beginning of the rollover to mainline for all carriers. I'm sure going to enjoy the run up in price from my original purchase of $14. per share. It's a shame WN won't get a chance to purchase these wonderful a/c as there will probably be a wait of 2 or 3 years for delivery in the near future.

 

[Fly4hire]

This is no surprise to many of us - we saw this coming. Regional guys WAKE UP! The mainline will do ANYTHING to protect it's own, even if it means undercutting the regionals. Start looking out for yourselves instead of kissing their a$$.

Why is it OK that we have been losing jobs for years to SJ/RJ flying, with you literally having a job at our expense, with thousands on the street, yet you cry like a 2 year old at the proposition of these jobs becoming mainline positions?

I can just imagine the wailing if any Regionals actually start furloughing or expeirencing the back sliding that's gone on for years now at the mainlines.

Personally I think we sooner we recapture this flying and get everyone on the same list the sooner we stop the whipsawing and outsourcing raceto the bottom.

I guess it's only OK if it pains mainline careers, it that it?

 

[Crzipilot]

If ALPA was wise......they possibility of a unique oppty. here. With the combined carrier, you have two wholly owned regionals. If alpa wanted to start to go in the right direction, which they should have done 20 years ago, I could imagine this would be a situation capitalized on. Why not starting to scope in the name, instead of aircraft size. Essential take PDT and PSA, make a combined seniority list with some sort of fences between the three to give some protection to the pilots on each list. Something like USairways/PSA/PDT. each division continues with their current contracts and seniority lists for the next 5 years or something, with the difference being one can jump from PDT up to PSA up to USairways. Each pilot holds his relative seniority with his native carrier. When the openings come up those at PSA PDT can goto US with some form of credit for longevity and such. You grandfather in the current contract RJ's for the time being, but no more growth to those outlets. As the contracts expire, they go away, If not sooner. New hires start off on the prop and work their way up, unless other situations dictate. Over the period of time, the 3 contracts are melded together, Or one contract is formed with work rules etc for the seperate divisions. This would keep the damn whipsawing and selling out of the lines flying to a minimum I would think. At the same time it could keep the costs to the company essentially competitve.
Any thoughts?

 

[jbDC9]

Why is it OK that we have been losing jobs for years to SJ/RJ flying, with you literally having a job at our expense, with thousands on the street, yet you cry like a 2 year old at the proposition of these jobs becoming mainline positions?

I can just imagine the wailing if any Regionals actually start furloughing or expeirencing the back sliding that's gone on for years now at the mainlines.

Personally I think we sooner we recapture this flying and get everyone on the same list the sooner we stop the whipsawing and outsourcing raceto the bottom.

I guess it's only OK if it pains mainline careers, it that it?

Yeah, what he said! Sometimes I think that Joe Merchant and those RJDC idiots would only be happy if all mainline pilots were fired/furloughed and they could take over all the flying... gotta defend our regionals don't ya know. Those greedy mainline bastards are gonna take away all the regional flying... it's just not fair! Waaaahhhh!!!!!

Seriously though, I wish we could somehow get a single seniority list with each mainline and it's regional affiliates, would be nice to stop all this stupid whipsawing between the lowest bidders... but methinks that it's too late at this point. Or is it?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why is it OK that we have been losing jobs for years to SJ/RJ flying, with you literally having a job at our expense, with thousands on the street, yet you cry like a 2 year old at the proposition of these jobs becoming mainline positions?

I ask again, what is so magical about the "mainline" label? There used to be a big difference, but if you haven't noticed, that line has been blurred. There will be even more cuts at the mainline shortly. Let's stop with this mythical "mainline" and "regional" label. Instead let's call it what it is. It is "yours" and "mine". To simplify this argument for you, "mine" is more important than "yours".

I can just imagine the wailing if any Regionals actually start furloughing or expeirencing the back sliding that's gone on for years now at the mainlines.

With flowbacks and jets4jobs, that has happened to make way for the almighty "mainline" pilot.

Personally I think we sooner we recapture this flying and get everyone on the same list the sooner we stop the whipsawing and outsourcing raceto the bottom.

I guess it's only OK if it pains mainline careers, it that it?

Well to be perfectly blunt, MY career is more important than YOUR career. Sorry, but that is the atmosphere that ALPA has fostered through the years. Nothing personal, it's just business. As far as a single list, the regional pilots have been advocating that for years only to fall on deaf ears. If your version of a single list involves me starting all over at the bottom flying an aircraft for lower rates than we currently do, then you can stick it where the sun don't shine. I'll just bid lower than you!

Joe

 

[FurloughedAgain]

New hires start off on the prop and work their way up, unless other situations dictate. Over the period of time, the 3 contracts are melded together, Or one contract is formed with work rules etc for the seperate divisions.

Sure. How exactly is ALPA going to persuade the company to do that?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sure. How exactly is ALPA going to persuade the company to do that?

To do what?

 

[DornierPilot]

Crzipilot,

I agree with many of your ideas (from a purely civilian perspective), however, I doubt that our military trained friends would feel that it is fair to "start over" to get a commercial flying job. Don't forget that their 7+ years of "apprenticeship" has already been served.

I guess we'll just have to come up with a more inclusive career path for both pure civilian trained vs. pure military trained.

 

[FlyinPiker]

Good Jobs guys......reverse the trend. Gotta get the planes on the property.....do any of you haters have any suggestions on how they were going to be able to do that without low rates??

Piker

 

[Crzipilot]

Furloughed,

Well that's another distaste of ALPO.....as there is someone making 400+ that's supposed to have those answers...... give me some time though, and possibly be able to come up with an idea. One off the top of my head, is again, the fee for departure contracts. How much, if any of a savings is there to do it inhouse. Now granted there would have to be some synergies between the 3 corporate offices and such, but they've sorta gone in that direction with the SSO for hotels and such. (supposedly mainline/express/mda to be staying in same hotels whenever contracts come up) 3 dir. of ops??/ 3 dir. mtx / 3 of everything.....how much would be gained from cutting those??? So basically show a cost savings of some sort, and it would make sense. Now of course, if new mgmnt main goal is to continue to whipsaw the labor groups, well forget about it.

 

[Superpilot92]

Crzipilot,

I agree with many of your ideas (from a purely civilian perspective), however, I doubt that our military trained friends would feel that it is fair to "start over" to get a commercial flying job. Don't forget that their 7+ years of "apprenticeship" has already been served.

I guess we'll just have to come up with a more inclusive career path for both pure civilian trained vs. pure military trained.

It was the choice to go the military route. Everyone has to start somewhere.

 

[onthestreet]

Yes,

They will be at mainline. We have to ratify the pay scales so it's not a done deal yet, but so far it doesn't look like Republic or anyone else will be flying 190's for us.

Pilots on the AAA/AWA seniority lists will fly these airplanes.

The line between mainline and regional has finally been drawn - albeit very late.

Does anyone know when the first domestic 190 delivery is available to someone other than Jetblue?

 

[Fly4hire]

Well to be perfectly blunt, MY career is more important than YOUR career. Sorry, but that is the atmosphere that ALPA has fostered through the years. Nothing personal, it's just business. ........ If your version of a single list involves me starting all over at the bottom flying an aircraft for lower rates than we currently do, then you can stick it where the sun don't shine.
Joe

Yeah, ditto MY career as well. I was not talking the mythical shangri-la national list, but within a carrier, all flying done from RJ F/O up to 747-400 Capt. by the same company, same contract, same list.

As to stapling, etc, what would you think if the rate were the same or better, and you had the ability to bid up to larger equipment as your seniority would allow?

 

[Swaayze]

.....yet you cry like a 2 year old at the proposition of these jobs becoming mainline positions?

These jobs have always been mainline positions!

I say we just do away with code-sharing and contracting. Let each airline try to make it on their own. (That or just re-regulate the industry completely)

 

[Swaayze]

Crzipilot,

I agree with many of your ideas (from a purely civilian perspective), however, I doubt that our military trained friends would feel that it is fair to "start over" to get a commercial flying job. Don't forget that their 7+ years of "apprenticeship" has already been served.

I guess we'll just have to come up with a more inclusive career path for both pure civilian trained vs. pure military trained.

Well whaaaa. If they don't want to start over they should stay in the military. Great benefits and retirement I hear. Christ, is EVERYONE ENTITLED nowadays!?

 

[JohnyChimpo99]

How does this work? If AWA ALPA wants to scope regionals out of the E190 market and they get payrates ready, can management still put these aircraft at the regionals? Do both sides have to agree on this?