Duchess v. Seneca v. Seminole for Multi

[BoilerUP]

Did my COM multi add-on in a Seminole, then did my MEI in a Seneca I about a year later. The Seneca is a piece of cake to fly, but even on a standard day, it won't climb single engine with 2 160lb pilots and full tanks. Its also relatively slow, at a 155-160kt cruise at typical power settings. IMO, it was a great airplane to do MEI training in, as SE ops were cake and it flew like the big dump truck any 6 place, straight wing Piper does.

The Seminole flew like a twin Arrow IV. The elevator isn't as powerful as a Dutchess so I often used the electric trim to help me flare, but that was initial multi training. I always managed to land it well, and its systems are very simple and straightforward. Easy, easy multi airplane to learn in, and quite forgiving.

I've never flown a Dutchess, so I can't comment about it.

I'd say fly whichever one is cheapest, but keep in mind you might pay a bit more for a FBO/flying club airplane, but you'll more than likely be checked out to rent it once you get your rating. Which is more than can be said for ATP. This is why I did my MEI training at an FBO, and it only cost me about $100 more.

 

[minitour]

thats what i was thinkin but hey, hes a II, leave minitool alone

Because being a II has anything to do with flying twins?

What's your deal, man?

-mini

 

[Yellow Snow]

Seneca is very easy to fly and very hard to land well. If you can land a seneca 1 well you can probably land anything. The trick to the Seneca landings is to keep rolling in trim as you come down final. If you try to land trimmed for a typical approach above blue line you can't haul the nose up no matter how strong you are. I did my multi and multi comm in the seneca and had no problems. It has a single engine service ceiling realistically about 2500 to 3000 ft. It basically has no vmc above 2500 ft so you will never get to see what really happens when you loose one. All the acft on your list are this way. I went up in an apache with a friend and did a vmc demo just so I could see what it was like to truly loose control. I recommend this as it is really an eye opener. The pipers are simple and stable so either would be fine, never flown a dutchess so can't offer an opinion on that one. The best advice I can offer is to find an instructor with a ton of experience and try to really learn how to fly it not just pass a ride.

 

[flyer172r]

If you're in a plane that doesn't lose directional control on a Vmc demo at the normal altitudes, do a demo with full flaps. It lowers the stall speed so much that the student can really see what Vmc is like. In terms of the airplanes, I did my ME in a Seminole, just finished my MEI in a Seneca I. The Seneca is tough to land well, but that's my biggest complaint about it. I dont imagine Piper still supports the Seneca I, especially with their recent hurricane damage, but I might be mistaken. Seminole was a nice trainer, especially coming out of something like an Arrow. Neither one was particularly bad, I thought. Haven't touched a Duchess.

In terms of where to do it, I'd say keep use your vacation time for your family and do it at your club, especially if you can rent the twin afterwards. Now that we're in daylight savings time, maybe you can go there every day after work for a couple hours and knock it out in a week or two.

And about having 2.9 multi for your checkride, don't you need 3 hours within 60 days for any checkride? The examiner I had for my CFI said 2.9 wouldn't cut it. But if you passed with it, all the more power to you.

 

[minitour]

And about having 2.9 multi for your checkride, don't you need 3 hours within 60 days for any checkride? The examiner I had for my CFI said 2.9 wouldn't cut it. But if you passed with it, all the more power to you.

I was worried about that, but I guess 61.63 doesn't say anything about "3 in 60" like 61.129(A)(4)(ii) does, so it's I guess it's kosher. If it was your initial CFI, I'd think that's right...if it was an addition, it should have been okay.

In hind sight, I wouldn't have done it that quick if I could do it again...I was taught the checkride and I really need some more time with a MEI on some stuff (Short field T/O and crosswind landings OEI specifically) before I'm going to think about soloing...luckily no insurance company in their right mind will cover me to solo a twin yet so there's no temptation...

-mini

 

[LewisU_Pilot]

Mini your avatar is in this months maxim

 

[minitour]

Mini your avatar is in this months maxim

It's time to change...I had a good one of Hillary Duff but it was too large (size not pixel) so that didn't work...still looking for a replacement...

-mini

 

[Fly_Chick]

I did my multi training in the Seminole. Okay airplane. Now I am building hours in a Seneca I. I found the Seneca more challenging and made me more precise with my flying. I like the Seneca.

I will agree the Seneca is challenging to land, need quite a bit of back pressure, keep trimming the plane for nose up while descending to land. I find it helps to put your feet up on the panel and use the strength in your leg muscles to help maintain back pressure and give you some extra force while you are pulling back on the yoke.

All kidding aside, I have not flown the Duchess. Go with the least expensive. The Seminole was a nice, easy plane to fly. The Seneca tests your ability to handle a heavier plane better.

 

[daddysquared]

Thank you so much for your input. It has helped a lot. For what it is worth, I have decided to get the add on in the Duchess at the flying club and then do a checkout in the Seneca I. Getting it done in 2.9 like mini would be outstanding, however, I think I'll try to be a little more realistic and shoot for getting it done in 10 or less. Thanks again.

 

[cforst513]

good luck, daddy. let's see if you can beat mini's record

 

[mayday1]

so you will never get to see what really happens when you loose one. All the acft on your list are this way. I went up in an apache with a friend and did a vmc demo just so I could see what it was like to truly loose control. I recommend this as it is really an eye opener.

were you doing VMC demos, or VMC rollovers? I hope the former.

 

[BoilerUP]

On my MEI checkride, the examiner asked me if my instructor had shown me what happens when a student pushes the wrong pedal during SE ops. I said no, we discussed it and ways to prevent it, but he never demonstrated. So the DPE promptly climbed up to 5000ft, killed an engine, and stomped the incorrect pedal. We *quickly* flipped over on our backs in the Seneca I we were flying. So fast, in fact, I think I only had time to say "Oh sh!t" before we were about 110 degrees or so from where we started. So fast it was only the second time I'd truly been scared flying. I retarded the other throttle and recovered from the maneuver using a spilt-s, and the DPE said "THAT is why multi-engine instructing is so dangerous."

It was most certainly an eye opener, and I suggest anybody working on their MEI do this at least once with a competent instructor, if only for the experience. It might safe your life one day...

 

[CapnVegetto]

I suppose that might happen with a 2.9 hour multi pilot with a rating.

Come on people, don't train for a checkride, train to be proficient and safe. I promise you, you're NOT in 2.9 hours.

 

[Doubleo6point9]

Thank you so much for your input. It has helped a lot. For what it is worth, I have decided to get the add on in the Duchess at the flying club and then do a checkout in the Seneca I. Getting it done in 2.9 like mini would be outstanding, however, I think I'll try to be a little more realistic and shoot for getting it done in 10 or less. Thanks again.

I think you'll be happy with the Duchess. Although i've never flown a Seneca or a Seminole I do have about 100 hrs in the Duchess and it's an awesome plane to learn in. Well I should say it's awesome aslong as it's in good condition and well maintained. The only downside really has been mentioned before about the possible lack of spare parts. Oh that and the heaters usually don't work because circuit breakers always pop because people always forget to let it cool off before shutting things down.

 

[Doubleo6point9]

I suppose that might happen with a 2.9 hour multi pilot with a rating.

Come on people, don't train for a checkride, train to be proficient and safe. I promise you, you're NOT in 2.9 hours.

I'd have to agree with this. It took me 16 hrs to get my multi/comm/inst add on and although I could have gotten it about 5 hours sooner I didn't because I didn't feel 100% confident in the a/c by myself doing long IFR x/c flights. That and needing an IPC didn't help either.

Although i'm glad that mini's making a good choice in choosing to get some more time in with an MEI.