Dual Engine Failure--Yeow!

[flywithastick]

Landing an MD 80(2) deadstick. Those guys *are* sierra hotel in my book, even if they may well have fouled up.

know of a guy who landed a T-38 dead stick. I've never been there, but AFAIK it has no alternate hydraulic power source. Supposedly he dove it keeping the engine windmilling supplying hydraulic power (from the engine) and got it down safely. Another guy I know tells how he once lost both on a Merlin in a storm, at night over moutains many years ago. Got them both relit. Good stories to swap over a beer at the hanger.

 

[LXApilot]

Dead Stick? Not the first time!

The odds of a double engine flame-out in cruise flight are low, but its happened plenty of times that I can think of. Most of these cases are pretty publicized, but the news media dosent like to pay attention to the ones that would make a professional pilot actually look like he was an asset in the cockpit during such an emergency. I can think of a 767 flying for a major airline that is affectionately known as the 'Maui Glider' and it has had 3 double engine flame-outs in its flying history with the company. Kinda scary when you think about it. Best advice I ever had was this; "the fuel panel will get you in more trouble, faster than anything else in the cockpit... so don't touch it unless you HAVE to." And this is true, most engine flame-outs are attributed to fuel system errors or pilot error in manipulating that system.

 

[enigma]

Since someone brought up this almost dead thread, I'll add a little for those wondering. The crew did relight both engines, they didn't land dead stick. The incident was turned over to the ASAP program and all info is confidential because of the rules of the program. That's all we know. It could have been anything. I can't speculate. I'm just glad that it wasn't me.

regards,
enigma

 

[Swass]

That's what I thought, how long before they re-lit, does anybody know?

 

[miaboeingcapt]

From what I've heard, the Capt. and FO of this flight no longer work for Spirit. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Typhoon1244]

I recently spoke with a 10,000-hour DC-9/MD-80 guy about this incident. Apparently there are only a couple of things that could cause a double engine failure at cruise in good weather in an MD-80: not turning the center tank pumps on after takeoff, or a failure of some sort in the fuel system.

The center tank issue has come up before lots of times, but people usually catch it before they run the wing tanks dry. As for a failure of the fuel system, wouldn't that have prevented them from relighting the engines?

I'll be interested to see what the outcome is.

(By the way, for all you CRJ pilots out there, a little trivia: the MD-80's APU cannot be bled to the packs--or anything else--in flight. It's an airplane limitation...and besides, when you try to do it, the APU shuts down. Glad we don't have that limitation!)

 

[enigma]

I recently spoke with a 10,000-hour DC-9/MD-80 guy about this incident. Apparently there are only a couple of things that could cause a double engine failure at cruise in good weather in an MD-80: not turning the center tank pumps on after takeoff, or a failure of some sort in the fuel system.

The center tank issue has come up before lots of times, but people usually catch it before they run the wing tanks dry. As for a failure of the fuel system, wouldn't that have prevented them from relighting the engines?

I'll be interested to see what the outcome is.

(By the way, for all you CRJ pilots out there, a little trivia: the MD-80's APU cannot be bled to the packs--or anything else--in flight. It's an airplane limitation...and besides, when you try to do it, the APU shuts down. Glad we don't have that limitation!)

I don't have time to do further research in the NTSB journals, even if I did, I would be well advised to keep my mouth shut. I will say that there are more than two ways to lose both engines, and that's assuming that both engines were lost. I really don't know. Like I said earlier, the pilots told their story to the ASAP team and it's all confidential. The report that the ASAP team published didn't even tell the whole story. I hope that someone hear can do the research of public information, find an answer, then post their findings. I'd like to know the truth. I only know speculation, and I'm not about to repeat any of it. I know that some in Hollywood say that any publicity is good publicity, but I'm not sure that applies to Spirit.

regards,
enigma

BTW, If memory serves, ASAP stands for Aviation Safety Action Program, and it's basically a NASA program run jointly by the company and the POI. It has good points and bad points, but that probably warrants another string.

 

[Dieterly]

So I guess the answer is that they no longer work for Spirit?

BTW Didn't Spirit also manage to stall one (airplane) in cruise, a few years back?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Didn't Spirit also manage to stall one (airplane) in cruise, a few years back?

I wasn't going to mention it, but yeah. An MD-80 way up in the flight levels. Not sure if it was a high- or low-speed stall. The kicker is that after they fell out of the sky and recovered, they climbed right back up where they'd been and stalled again.

Now I'm not the brightest jet-jockey in the world, but I think after the first stall I'd have gotten the message.

Note: I don't want to come down too hard on Spirit. There are dopey mistakes made at all airlines. I believe my company holds the record for wrong airport landings in the Columbus, Mississippi area. (They all look alike! Thank heaven for GPS...)

 

[ExAF]

Deadstik a 38?

I know of a guy who landed a T-38 dead stick. I've never been there, but AFAIK it has no alternate hydraulic power source. Supposedly he dove it keeping the engine windmilling supplying hydraulic power (from the engine) and got it down safely.

I think your friend was telling you a "good one!" I'm not absolutely 100% sure, but to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever deadsticked a T-38. The aircraft would become uncontrollable in the flare. Chances of survival are much higher in an ejection.

 

[metrodriver]

all-engine failures:
-KLM 747-400 in volcanic ash over alaska, got first engine restarted at 10.000

-BA 747 over Indonesia in volcanic ash, same as above

-A330 over the atlantic (year or 2 ago, glided to the Azores
islands)

-B767 in Canada after running out of fuel because of conversion mistakes and inoperative fuel gauges. Glided to a drag strip

-BAE146 from the royal air wing in England: on all 4 engines they replaced the chip detectors and the new ones had been shipped by the factory without the O-rings that they normally came with, mechanic didn't notice. So every engine started to show loss of oil pressure (the first one they had started first was the first one to go) so after 3 were shut down they let the only remaining engine run till it seized, then restarted the first one they had shut down and repeated this process till they were over land and got to an airport.

 

[fokkerjet]

-BAE146 from the royal air wing in England: on all 4 engines they replaced the chip detectors and the new ones had been shipped by the factory without the O-rings that they normally came with, mechanic didn't notice. So every engine started to show loss of oil pressure (the first one they had started first was the first one to go) so after 3 were shut down they let the only remaining engine run till it seized, then restarted the first one they had shut down and repeated this process till they were over land and got to an airport.

Don't remember exactly all the details but Eastern had a L1011 out over the Atlantic had the same type of problem. I believe the night prior, an oil change was made on all thee engines by the same mechanic and an O-Ring was left off causing leaks.

Also, due to switch errors (engine run switches verses ignition switches being activated) didn't Delta have a 767 flame out two? A GV had it happen this winter also, both were restarted.