Down With The Major Ego!

[007]

No. It's not about scoping airplanes. This mess came about when ALPA based the premise of scope on limiting airplanes instead of including the pilots who fly those planes. The segregation of the industry arises from this misguided arrogance and it's hurting everyone.

"All brand name flying will be done by brand name pilots." Whether it's in a Beech 1900 or a 747. Simple and enforcable. Let management decide what aircraft is appropriate and profitable for a particular market instead of trying to control the marketplace with a union contract which is doomed to fail and always will be.

I agree with YOU, you know....................Ijust don't agree with HIM.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Well, the 100 seat and below jets are a lost cause, lets make sure we can keep the 100+ jets at mainline. Until you limit regional growth, this profession is a lost cause.

 

[N2264J]

Well, the 100 seat and below jets are a lost cause, lets make sure we can keep the 100+ jets at mainline. Until you limit regional growth, this profession is a lost cause.

See what I mean? This is the flawed thinking that put "the profession" where it is today. Why would you want to hobble your company's growth in these difficult times? Let management decide what aircraft are the most profitable to deploy in a given market.

There should only be one pilot group within the brand. One MEC that controls all the flying. That is a union's charter. Multiple MECs within a brand dilute the bargaining leverage for everyone.

 

[acaTerry]

That's the EXACT attitude that this thread is addressing!

YOU can't give me anything. YOU don't wear the pants anymore. YOU have been cut down to size. Welcome to chitty work rules, no food, cut benefits, low morale. No more gangster tactics with upstart airlines....they now run the show and make a profit at fares which will put you and your attitude OUT OF BUSINESS! YOU are just a regional pilot now.

Feel free to borrow my crowbar to remove your foot from your mouth. You need to look back about 6 or 7 years and see how this whole mess developed....

 

[737 Pylt]

2 for 2

See what I mean? This is the flawed thinking that put "the profession" where it is today. Why would you want to hobble your company's growth in these difficult times? Let management decide what aircraft are the most profitable to deploy in a given market.

N: (I can't believe I'm saying this)
You do make a valid point, seriously! But listen to yourself. Tell me one reason (mis)management wouldn't use these a/c to whipsaw each of the regionals on each other. You can hear it now....."Let's see who will fly it for the cheapest, MESA, CHQ, CMR, ASA....." Also, when has managment used their marketing ability to decide what aircraft goes where??

There should only be one pilot group within the brand. One MEC that controls all the flying. That is a union's charter. Multiple MECs within a brand dilute the bargaining leverage for everyone.

The problem therein lies that ALPA is divided up by groups of MEC's all of which are not only looking out for the best interest of said pilot group, but who are also in direct competition with each other. The ONLY way anything that you mention would remotely work is with a "national seniority list."
737
could this be the start of civilized conversation??
probably not!

 

[ohplease!]

N: (I can't believe I'm saying this)
You do make a valid point, seriously! But listen to yourself. Tell me one reason (mis)management wouldn't use these a/c to whipsaw each of the regionals on each other. You can hear it now....."Let's see who will fly it for the cheapest, MESA, CHQ, CMR, ASA....."

good point...you guy's have already proven you'll fly 190's cheaper than anyone else.

 

[General Lee]

Incorrect. The rates are equal to AWA's, and more than the hourly rate at Jetblue. (pre-70 hours) And, the difference is that we could actually MOVE UP to larger aircraft and make more. 100 seaters at DCI would not allow that, since it would be at the top. Don't expect it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ohplease!]

Incorrect. The rates are equal to AWA's, and more than the hourly rate at Jetblue. (pre-70 hours) And, the difference is that we could actually MOVE UP to larger aircraft and make more. 100 seaters at DCI would not allow that, since it would be at the top. Don't expect it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

whats the top capt. rate you guys offered?

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Incorrect. The rates are equal to AWA's, and more than the hourly rate at Jetblue. (pre-70 hours) And, the difference is that we could actually MOVE UP to larger aircraft and make more. 100 seaters at DCI would not allow that, since it would be at the top. Don't expect it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

You are right, but you're totally wasting your time with these guys. Most of the people that you are arguing with in here are the lifers at the regionals who would rather see the growth at the regionals. They would rather see 100-120 seat airplanes flown at XYZ regional because they have no intentions of moving up to a major.

They would rather see 737's at ASA for 130 bucks an hour because that is a step up for them. They don't care that it lowers the bar for the whole industry.

They have forgotten that the regionals exist to supplement the majors. This guy "ohplease" makes stupid comments like "you have proven that you will fly 90 seaters fort lower wages" blah, blah, blah....but he does't seem to realize that we have no choice. He has lowewred the bar so much that in order for us to get that flying back we have to fly them for "regional" wages.

But he also doesn't realize that that's the best he will ever do pay wise. At least by getting those plane at mainline we will eventually bring the rates up and help raise the bar again. But since he plans on staying at ASA he doesn't give a ************************* about you. He wants to turn ASA into a non-regional airline.

Now he might say that we don't give a ************************* about him since we want the planes at mainline...but that's because he forgot that he works at an airline that is designed to suppliment a bigger airline. When he was hired at ASA the best he thought he would do was the 50 seat RJ. He doesn't understand that Its absurd that a regional should be flying aircraft with more than 50 seats. Anything bigger than the 50 seater is a bonus for him.

(BTW...I used to work at ASA and if this guy is who I think he is I can tell you that nobody liked flying with him. I'm just saying that to let you know who you're dealing with.)

 

[ohplease!]

(BTW...I used to work at ASA and if this guy is who I think he is I can tell you that nobody liked flying with him. I'm just saying that to let you know who you're dealing with.)

aww..that really hurts my feelings. I'd bet you don't have a clue who I am.

 

[800Dog]

aww..that really hurts my feelings. I'd bet you don't have a clue who I am.

Let me guess, you were a tri-lamb at Auburn and your lone date while there was with an omega-moo.

 

[ohplease!]

They have forgotten that the regionals exist to supplement the majors. This guy "ohplease" makes stupid comments like "you have proven that you will fly 90 seaters fort lower wages" blah, blah, blah....but he does't seem to realize that we have no choice. He has lowewred the bar so much that in order for us to get that flying back we have to fly them for "regional" wages.

Its funny that you all "have no choice" because of us. None of us have a choice. You'll take what your union can get for you and you'll like it or leave. period. ASA hasn't lowered anything. Our rates have done NOTHING but go UP. So far. The rest remains to be seen. oops! your thinking is FLAWED.

 

[ohplease!]

Let me guess, you were a tri-lamb at Auburn and your lone date while there was with an omega-moo.

seen too many revenge of the nerds movies? looking for some of your friends?

 

[N2264J]

The ONLY way anything that you mention would remotely work is with a "national seniority list."

No. I'm talking about scope that is simple, enforceable, really expensive to attain now and will take several contracts to achieve after ALPA realizes what the problem is. It's going to cost a few mergers and everyone is going to have to pay for it. Merger and Alter ego policy used to address this very problem.

ALPA's scope policy has screwed all its members. Randy Babbitt has admited that ALPA's position on scope was a mistake.

 

[737 Pylt]

No. I'm talking about scope that is simple, enforceable, really expensive to attain now and will take several contracts to achieve after ALPA realizes what the problem is. It's going to cost a few mergers and everyone is going to have to pay for it. Merger and Alter ego policy used to address this very problem.

ALPA's scope policy has screwed all its members. Randy Babbitt has admited that ALPA's position on scope was a mistake.

That's one are where (hold your breath, I can't believe I'm saying this)
You and I are in agreement.

737

 

[737 Pylt]

Its funny that you all "have no choice" because of us. None of us have a choice. You'll take what your union can get for you and you'll like it or leave. period. ASA hasn't lowered anything. Our rates have done NOTHING but go UP. So far. The rest remains to be seen. oops! your thinking is FLAWED.

I can't wait til you eat those words! I'm glad you find joy in the legacy carriers strife's right now, but remember, this industry is very cynical!
737

 

[Draginass]

NOPE. Here's the truth:

You and your attitude are the reason Delta is so unprofitable. EVEN IF your pay was the same as AirTran or Jetblue, Delta would still go out of business, since the WHOLE COMPANY is so inefficient, dysfunctional, and nasty to customers.

Since you're only a C-150 pilot (probably a student), we'll give you a pass on that idotic statemet. The reason the major airlines are unprofitable is because the cost of fuel has doubled with revenue flat. JetBlue is losing money as well. SWA will be too when their fuel hedges run down.

For the regional guys, you better realize that your fate is tied to the the major airline and the economics of standalone, high cost RJs is being subsidized by the major with FFD schemes. How come the airlines that were making money until recently, DON'T have RJs. Look at FlyI flying RJs as standalone. Dead and buried.

You RJ guys aren't really working for "airlines." You're working for a "small jet vendor," selling outsourced services to a real airline.

 

[Leroy Smith]

For the regional guys, you better realize that your fate is tied to the the major airline and the economics of standalone, high cost RJs is being subsidized by the major with FFD schemes. How come the airlines that were making money until recently, DON'T have RJs. Look at FlyI flying RJs as standalone. Dead and buried.

You RJ guys aren't really working for "airlines." You're working for a "small jet vendor," selling outsourced services to a real airline.

But remember, SWA, JBlu, ValuTran- they are all very different animals than DAL, AA, CAL, UAL, etc. They are all expanded niche market operations. Their success has hinged on cherry-picking routes for their rather specific operations to maximize profitability. They are starting to run out of expansion options (if they are going to maintain the same level of profitability on each) because there just arent that many routes out there that can be run the way that they do and still make money.

The "Mainline" carriers have large (or expanding), national and international (overseas, not just N America) networks, and they decided a while back that they needed to feed them. Are RJs profitable for them? Who knows, there are so many ways to jigger the credits and debits that there may be no objective way to say. But they need feed for their networks and without it, they would have to "right-size" themselves into LCCs. They could try to feed with MD88s, DC9s and 732s exclusively, keeping it all in house, but would that work any better (other than fighting the RJ scourge that has afflicted the industry)? It seems that any of these options would shrink the mainline carriers and be a detriment to mainline pilot lists.

All my OPINION, but it seems that RJs are a necessary part of the industry.
No matter what happens in the industry, someone WILL get screwed. Life is not fair, and business most certainly is not. The airline business is irrational, and the publics perception of airline travel is irrational and unrealistic, but thats the way it is.

 

[N2264J]

That's one are where (hold your breath, I can't believe I'm saying this) You and I are in agreement.

Ok, let's continue.

Continental and Continental Express

plus Northwest, Mesaba and Pinnicle could be merged without too much trouble right away.

Delta, United and USAirways, however, is going to take some outside-the-box thinking to unscrew but you don't necessarily have to merge the companies together to merge the pilot lists. A single list/single contract within the brand with a number for bidding in either direction according to seniority would fix the whipsaw problem.

Now having said that, I suspect ALPA is too parochial to admit a mistake and take this on. More than likely, they'll put another bandaid on the melanoma and move the line to 78 seats.

 

[737 Pylt]

Hey, what's happening here???

Ok, let's continue.

Continental and Continental Express

plus Northwest, Mesaba and Pinnicle could be merged without too much trouble right away.

Agreed, most likely with a staple! Doesn't CAL already have something like a flow through. I don't know much about them.

Delta, United and USAirways, however, is going to take some outside-the-box thinking to unscrew but you don't necessarily have to merge the companies together to merge the pilot lists. A single list/single contract within the brand with a number for bidding in either direction according to seniority would fix the whipsaw problem.

This is where the problem lies....How does a 20 year CMR pilot have a right to take priority away from a 15 yr DL cpt to the left seat of a wide body??
What's wrong with a staple. Flow back would be according to DOH, that way NOBODY gets the shaft, but you're talking an impossibility. Remember back in the late 1990's? The senior ASA/CMR folks were jumping for joy when they thought that they would get DOH on DL's seniority list.

Now having said that, I suspect ALPA is too parochial to admit a mistake and take this on. More than likely, they'll put another bandaid on the melanoma and move the line to 78 seats.

I see nothing wrong with the line at 78 seats. Everyone is happy. Mainline pilots as well as DCI/Feeder carriers. Everyone I talk with/fly with says the line is at 79 seats! There has to be some job preservations with our "predatory scope."
737

 

[PBRstreetgang]

See what I mean? This is the flawed thinking that put "the profession" where it is today. Why would you want to hobble your company's growth in these difficult times? Let management decide what aircraft are the most profitable to deploy in a given market.

There should only be one pilot group within the brand. One MEC that controls all the flying. That is a union's charter. Multiple MECs within a brand dilute the bargaining leverage for everyone.

Finally,
This is the essence of the issue, DIVIDE AND CONQUER, this bickering just furthers the goal of managment, and enables the process of domination of all pilots.
PBR

 

[RJDC]

Quote from 737pylot "The senior ASA/CMR folks were jumping for joy when they thought that they would get DOH on DL's seniority list."


I remember that I almost threw out my back jumping up and down so hard.

 

[flx757]

Quote from 737pylot "The senior ASA/CMR folks were jumping for joy when they thought that they would get DOH on DL's seniority list."


I remember that I almost threw out my back jumping up and down so hard.

RJDC is The Guat, Rhoid, Guppy Killer, TheGuppyKiller, Freight Nazi, TheMissingLink, 410Dude, OUT, IHaveAPension, and multiple other previously banned user names.

A UPS "employee", in fact.

 

[RJDC]

No I'm not.

 

[flx757]

No I'm not.

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[737 Pylt]

No I'm not.

No, you're just one big pain in the a$$!
737