Doug takes a shot at Dave

[koko nw]

I think you all just got punk'd by Rhoid, a.k.a. 32LT10.

P.S.- jetBLUE pilots are a class act. So are all of the real United, American, Southwest, Spirit, and AirTran pilots I have ever met, even when I was an RJ driver bumming a ride to work. Thanks for not being d1cks in real life.

Thanks for keeping it real McNugget. Nice and sensible post.

Let's not brand the whole pilot group because of the actions of a FEW. Never had the pleasure of the jumpseat on JetBlue but have heard positive remarks. Alaska, SWA and Frontier have been class acts 100% of the time I've sat up front.

Good luck to all of us, were going to need it, some more then others in this crazy business.

Koko

 

[thruthemurk]

There is no furlough policy because we don't furlough, never have and never will,


A typical captain here on the bus makes more than most equivelent bus captains at UAUA with premium pay, so stop dragging down the industry pay!!!!

Nice to be so confident...your lack of industry experience is showing. A great shortcoming of many of the pure military background guys at JB is that they believe everything they are told. Their 3,4 or 5 years of airline experience has shown them the way everything works- after all its just been airline biz as usual, right? Get back to me in 10 or 15 years when you have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

By the way, Let's do the math.

The most senior 320 Captain at JB working 85 hours makes:
(85*126)+(15*63)*12=$139860 Salary and total.
(0) Retirement

The most junior 320 Captain at UAL working 85 hours makes:
(85*126)*12= $128,520 Salary
($128,520*.15)=$19,278 Retirement (not taxed)
$147798 Total

So the most junior UAL guy comes out about $8000 higher than the most senior JB guy unless you want to provide your family with health insurance. Then the JB guy pays $330/month vs the UAL guys $100/month making another $2600 or so per year in the UAL guys favor.

I know, I know...lets talk profit sharing. Well the JB guy got 0$ in 2005 and its not looking too good for 2006. The UAL guy got a $100,000 payout for his "worthless ESOP stock" as a result of the BK settlement, not to mention a bond for giving up the Pension that could also approach $100,000 depending on his age, etc (in no case less than $60,000. Profit sharing is so vague and shifting that is better not counted but I mention the above only to show that the JB guy is now an additional $200,000 in the hole THIS YEAR. Next year your results may vary.

If you really want to see differences, check out the FO pay - this is where JB really sets a new standard. they value their FO's signficantly less than other major airlines. The percentage of Captains pay that the FO's earn is often less than 50%, compared to 63-70% elsewhere.

I post this not to bash JB or laud UAL, just to set the record straight for another mouthpiece that thinks he knows how pilots are paid because someone told him. If you are going to make sweeping statements about pay, try to be accurate.

 

[IronCityBlue]

mine is bigger than yours, etc.

By the way, Let's do the math.

The most senior 320 Captain at JB working 85 hours makes:
(85*126)+(15*63)*12=$139860 Salary and total.
(0) Retirement

The most junior 320 Captain at UAL working 85 hours makes:
(85*126)*12= $128,520 Salary
($128,520*.15)=$19,278 Retirement (not taxed)
$147798 Total

So the most junior UAL guy comes out about $8000 higher than the most senior JB guy unless you want to provide your family with health insurance. Then the JB guy pays $330/month vs the UAL guys $100/month making another $2600 or so per year in the UAL guys favor.

I know, I know...lets talk profit sharing. Well the JB guy got 0$ in 2005 and its not looking too good for 2006. The UAL guy got a $100,000 payout for his "worthless ESOP stock" as a result of the BK settlement, not to mention a bond for giving up the Pension that could also approach $100,000 depending on his age, etc (in no case less than $60,000. Profit sharing is so vague and shifting that is better not counted but I mention the above only to show that the JB guy is now an additional $200,000 in the hole THIS YEAR. Next year your results may vary.

If you really want to see differences, check out the FO pay - this is where JB really sets a new standard. they value their FO's signficantly less than other major airlines. The percentage of Captains pay that the FO's earn is often less than 50%, compared to 63-70% elsewhere.

I post this not to bash JB or laud UAL, just to set the record straight for another mouthpiece that thinks he knows how pilots are paid because someone told him. If you are going to make sweeping statements about pay, try to be accurate.

So if it takes longer to make bus captain at your airline, that means your junior captain makes more than our senior one, so you somehow come out ahead? Right. What if it took 30 years to make captain. Think how big of a disparity you could illustrate in your example then.

Your ESOP example isn't an annual thing, is it? So now are we going to compare profit sharing at our peak 17%? No, you don't count that because it doesn't happen every year. Fair enough. But then you count your "one time events" as yearly imcome. You added the "results may vary" to cover yourself, kinda like when a lawyer says something contrary to the "rules of engagement" just to put it out there, then "retracts" it. Nice try.

Again, no one is claiming JB bus pilots are the highest medium sized narrowbody pilots on the face of the earth. Just providing a counterarguement that we are big time undercutters. Oh and your FO percentage pay is duly noted. But you also have to look at the whole picture. Not subjecting bus new hires to 30K a year also, in that case, has to be taken into consideration. But if you had spent the last 5 years hiring thousands of pilots to fly your lift instead of outsourcing it to the lowest bidder while you furloughed thousands of the very people you claim you value so much with your 63-70% pay differential to get bargaining credits for your summer of love you would have known that.

 

[Deadalus]

Next Independence Air

Who cares what JB guys make? Their company's going down like a bowl of Draino.

 

[SoCentralRain]

I remember the good old days at Uterusnited, back in the days 32lt remembers the fondest! The gym at check in, voting yourselves payraises! That worked well. Now 32Lt is an old drunk who comes on the boards and raves. Rave on 32LT! It is like watching a once proud hunting dog trying to mount a sack of flour. Does anyone understand what I just wrote? Thats how I feel when I read 3210lt's posts.

Hey Deli,

That's one of the finest posts I've read here. Rock on.

You listening, Mr. 32LT10 (8800 feet available)?

SCR

 

[Phaedrus]

What in the name of Noah Webster is a "bowl of Draino" (sic)?

 

[32LT10]

People like 32 only shut up when they are banned for showing the type of character they are. Did he not post a child pornography website he had been frequenting to try and get someone's goat by telling that person that it was his/her daughter? How classy. Now he won't even acknowledge that fact. 32, I saw on the scab list there was someone busted in a child porn ring...that you? If it's not, he's better than you.

Just to set the record straight I have never posted anything about a child porn site. You can go read all the post I have submitted. What you are referring to was something completely different that was taken out of context. It was between bm and myself and the fact that he is an old gomper also.

Please get your facts straight and lose the vulgar user name. It is truly offensive.

 

[32LT10]

There is no furlough policy because we don't furlough, never have and never will, jerk.

With only a couple of years under its belt I would hope that jblu would not have furloughed anyone yet. However, given the dynamics that it is facing, lending issues due to debt downgrades, cost associated with maturation of the product , soaring fuel cost and other variables. The bright future that once was may be dimmed by the reality of the industry. To say you never will furlough is interesting. Let's see what happens.

 

[Lake Alice]

As young boys and girls we raised our heads and stared at the skies hoping to be up there one day. The sounds of jets would be be head from over head and we would all look around wondering where the plane was. Today, for the most part, we have accomplished our goals and we fly for a living. This is the good part.

Here is the truly sad part. The industry isn't what it used to be and most of us are hoping the proverbial other shoe doesn't drop. All the while a$$holes like 32LT10 hope and pray some of our companies will go belly up in grand fashion so in some sick and digusting fashion he can derive some pleasure.

Rest assured your time will come. Actually, your time is here. You are so disgruntled that you can't contain yourself. You arteries are probably clogging at a rate you can't control so you probably won't be around nearly as long as you thought you would, and for what?

 

[IB6 UB9]

As young boys and girls we raised our heads and stared at the skies hoping to be up there one day. The sounds of jets would be be head from over head and we would all look around wondering where the plane was. Today, for the most part, we have accomplished our goals and we fly for a living. This is the good part.

Here is the truly sad part. The industry isn't what it used to be and most of us are hoping the proverbial other shoe doesn't drop. All the while a$$holes like 32LT10 hope and pray some of our companies will go belly up in grand fashion so in some sick and digusting fashion he can derive some pleasure.

Rest assured your time will come. Actually, your time is here. You are so disgruntled that you can't contain yourself. You arteries are probably clogging at a rate you can't control so you probably won't be around nearly as long as you thought you would, and for what?

Must be exhausting for 32 to lug around that electronic ankle bracelet too.

 

[Eagleflip]

32 has been asked to tone down the rhetoric, and I'd appreciate it if everyone else does too. No one here ever posted a link to a child porn site, so let us just drop that little tidbit, ok?

Thanks in advance to all!

 

[MD80DRVR]

This is getting ridiculous. If everyone hasn't noticed, this industry is in shambles... NO ONE is immune. He who is on top today may be in bankruptcy tomorrow. Wishing ill will toward one another is getting us nowhere. The fact of the matter is that no one on this board makes the decisions on how our company's are run or how much we get paid (Union or Non-Union) or where we fly. For everyone here to have all this animosity is just silly. Neeleman was just running his gums just like Dave is doing in rebuttal. They're both just trying to rally their troops, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[thruthemurk]

No need to be so defensive. I don't work for United. Just wanted to set the record straight that there captains make more than UAL's at 85 hours.

Simply not true.

If you read the post I was answering perhaps you could see that. I only mentioned profit sharing to show how wildly erratic it is, and as I mentioned, not a good idea when comparing what one makes.

All of your caveats may be true, but do not change the fact that the lowest paid 320 captain at UAL makes more than the highest paid 320 captain at Jetblue at 85 hours - despite all of the rhetoric otherwise.

I am not saying this is good or bad - just that often heard JB refrain is incorrect.

Murk

 

[Eagleflip]

MD80, I think you hit the nail on the head. While I would not prefer to intentially thumb my nose too hard at the competition, a little is unavoidable as CEOs try to differentiate their product.

I remember when Gordon Bethune made the "they're all smoking ragweed" comment about JetBlue. When I said something about it to Dave Barger (who worked for Bethune at Continental) he said something to the effect that Gordon was just trying to keep the Continental folks motivated.

Ain't no use in going too far poking folks in the eye, though. I'd rather just provide a good service at a reasonable price and let the public figure it out for themselves.

 

[GogglesPisano]

It is like watching a once proud hunting dog trying to mount a sack of flour. .

Now that is just plain hilarious!!

 

[Spectre]

Nice to be so confident...your lack of industry experience is showing. A great shortcoming of many of the pure military background guys at JB is that they believe everything they are told. Their 3,4 or 5 years of airline experience has shown them the way everything works- after all its just been airline biz as usual, right? Get back to me in 10 or 15 years when you have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

By the way, Let's do the math.

The most senior 320 Captain at JB working 85 hours makes:
(85*126)+(15*63)*12=$139860 Salary and total.
(0) Retirement

The most junior 320 Captain at UAL working 85 hours makes:
(85*126)*12= $128,520 Salary
($128,520*.15)=$19,278 Retirement (not taxed)
$147798 Total "Quote

The most senior Captain on the A-320 at JetBlue has around 6 years on the property. How many United Captains are there on the A-320 who only have 6 years on the property? You're not comparing apples to apples here. Realistically, I don't think you have anyone who's a Captain at United with less than six years on the property. I think it would take 10-12 years to make Captain on the A320 at United. Even now, the Captain upgrades to the 320 at JetBlue is around 3-4 years. Realistically, if you want to compare total earnings, compare what a 6 year United FO makes against a 6 year Capt at JetBlue who was hired on day one as a Captain!

 

[Green]

I find it terribly dis-heartening to listen to pilots take pleasure in the downfall of legacy carriers. Why would anyone be happy that widebody captain pay has been cut in half? It just puts pressure on LCC carrier salaries. How can we justify making 140k at the LCC airlines when NWA/UAL/Dal can get their 777/747 captains to work for the same amount. It just means we have a pay cut on the horizon. Come on guys/gals we're all in this together. We should be fighting management as a unified front instead of fighting over the scraps.


Anyone catch that recent Wall Street Journal article on Airline Pilot Pay? The AVERAGE air traffic controller salary (160k) is higher than ANY airline pilot outside of SWA makes if you factor in the new DAL and NWA ta's. That is downright depressing. We should be talking SOS type job actions, not trashing each other.

 

[32LT10]

I find it terribly dis-heartening to listen to pilots take pleasure in the downfall of legacy carriers.

Green,

You make a very good point. This is exactly what has happened with the Express carriers versus the majors. Shortly after 9/11 when the company was struggling and giving all the mainline flying the RJ's I heard more than one Express pilot say that "you guys just priced yourself out of the market" and various other versions of it is your own fault that this is happening to you. You can still see this in many of the messages from the crowd that flies for the color coded company.

What is ironic is that once the company was finished rumaging through our pockets they took on the RJ guys. ACA and ARW were the two that got priced out of the market in the UAX arena. All of a sudden they got the same treatment we did. Look at what is happening at NWA. All the Mesaba pilots are upset and crying in their travelpro's that the NWA pilots are giving them the short shrift. None of these guys were crying foul when management was pawning off mainline jobs to them, all because they were the lowest bidder at the time.

 

[JBPA]

The most senior Captain on the A-320 at JetBlue has around 6 years on the property. How many United Captains are there on the A-320 who only have 6 years on the property? You're not comparing apples to apples here.

I disagree. I think he is comparing apples to apples. It doesn't matter that we don't have any 12 year captains. We have a 12-year payscale and that is what was used in his comparison.

Realistically, if you want to compare total earnings, compare what a 6 year United FO makes against a 6 year Capt at JetBlue who was hired on day one as a Captain!

It's funny, no, I mean really sad that a few years ago you wouldn't be able to use this comparison since a year 6 FO made more than a JB CA. A lot more. How 'bout compare a year 6 UA FO with a year 6 JB FO. Oh wait, we don't have any year 6 FO's (we will eventually). Our 156-seat CA pay is low. Bottom line. At least we have good retirement/benefits. Oh wait.....

My point to my ranting is that I personally wouldn't be trying to justify/compare our pay (low) with anybody elses. Especially a year 6 UA FO. Before the legacy managements raped their workforces, they were making way more than us (even most FO's over year 3/4 more than our CA's). Way more. If you think our low pay rates had nothing to do with their current pay scales than you are living in a vacuum. And while I'm not a doom and gloom guy, I don't think that our rates are going to go up anytime soon (we certainly don't have any say in the matter).

The only 'vote' we have on enhancing our compensation package is to 'vote' with our feet.

 

[Big Slick]

He is trying to fire up the troops. This is just what Tony Saprano did the other night. He picked a fight with a younger guy - just to show who was da boss. You got a problem with that?

SWO/FO only watches the Sopranos so he can see Vito Spatafore vacation in New Hampshire.
http://www.hbo.com/sopranos/cast/character/vito_spatafore.shtml