Dont think scope is a huge deal?

[maxblast72]

I guess I just wouldn't assume that every route F9 is operating with the airbus is safe from getting replaced with a E170 or E190. But I have been wrong before...

That is probably true. But having the flexibility to move Airbus/E-190/E-170 aircraft between DEN and MKE to bring the right size aircraft to the right markets will probably be good long term for overall profitability of Frontier/Midwest flying. Airbus will be a better fit for some of the west coast flying out of MKE while the E-170/E-190 platform will probably be better for some of the thinner routes of Denver.

Hasn't Bedford/Menke said that the Airbus fleet isn't going to get any smaller? There has to be some concern though that much of the future growth might be E-170/E-190 and not Airbus.

 

[GuppyWN]

Did the Midwest pilots "agree" to the lease from RAH? Did they sign a contract over it?

Were they culpuble in their own demise is what I'm getting at?

Gup

 

[runwayjockey]

Did the Midwest pilots "agree" to the lease from RAH? Did they sign a contract over it?

Were they culpuble in their own demise is what I'm getting at?

Gup

From what was reported they stood their ground, refusing to fly for substandard wages and where replaced with cheaper, less experienced labor. I'm sure someone at YX can comment on what scope was in place.


Milwaukee's Daily Magazine
By Steve Jagler
Special to OnMilwaukee.com
Published July 9, 2008 at 10:24 a.m.

The Midwest Airlines pilots do not plan to even vote on the troubled company's demands that would slash their pay by up to 65 percent, according to Jay Schnedorf, a captain and chairman of the Midwest unit of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).
Schnedorf told SBT, "There will be no vote on their proposal. It's unacceptable on its face. We are planning a counter-proposal to present back to the company ... We've told them (company officials) their demands are unacceptable."
Midwest Airlines is demanding that pilots take pay cuts of 45 to 65 percent. Schnedorf said a junior captain's annual salary would drop from $120,000 to $31,000.
With a wife and two children, a pilot earning $31,000 would qualify for the Wisconsin BadgerCare health care program for the working poor, at taxpayers' expense, Schnedorf said.
A Midwest senior captain's salary would drop from $150,000 to $79,000 under the company's proposal, he said.
The company already has furloughed 35 of its 400 pilots and plans to cut its roster of pilots down to 200, Schnedorf said.
Schnedorf noted that the pilots took "deep concessions" to keep the Oak Creek-based company afloat in 2003.
"I made more than $35,000 flying for the company in 1995, with better benefits," Schnedorf said.
The Midwest chapter of the pilots union will meet Thursday morning to discuss their options, Schnedorf said.
Midwest also is demanding that union flight attendants take pay cuts of 34 to 56 percent.
Midwest officials have said the cuts are needed to help the company avoid filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
The majority owner of Midwest's Air Group Inc., the parent company of Midwest Airlines, is TPG Capital of Fort Worth, Texas. Northwest Airlines Corp. owns a 47 percent stake in the venture.
"With the resources these owners have, TPG and Northwest, if they want to get a deal done, they clearly have the ability to buy the time that is needed to do the right things," Schnedorf said.
Meanwhile, "for sale" signs are popping up like dandelions in front of condominiums throughout Oak Creek, as pilots and flight attendants prepare to lose their jobs or take pay cuts that would prevent them from staying in their homes.
Schnedorf said he spent his Fourth of July weekend painting his house, preparing it for sale.
"Pilots are doing several things, looking at how they can cope with this. They all are going through the same things with their homes, their wives and their children," Schnedorf said. "It's a tragic situation, the human impact that's going on."
The pain inflicted by soaring fuel costs is being felt throughout the airline industry.
Discount carrier AirTran Airways told its employees Monday that the company will cut 480 jobs, or more than 5 percent of its workforce, by Sept. 6.
Last week, American Airlines' parent company, AMR Corp., announced it plans to cut nearly 7,000 full-time employees, or 8 percent of its total staff, by the end of 2008. The reductions follow the airline's report that it may cut up to 900 flight attendant jobs.
Meanwhile, Orlando, Fla.-based AirTran's leadership team is keenly watching Midwest's tactical decisions less than a year after Midwest had rebuffed AirTran's hostile takeover bid.
"We'll keep a close eye on the competitive market and take a look at what might change with the Midwest pulldown," said AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver.

 

[redflyer65]

Maxblast,

Keep dreamin'. Good luck.

 

[AvroGuy]

That video was very well done, but depressing. Couple of questions.
1. Is Hoeksema (sp?) off the hook now after running the place into the ground before Republic bought them?
2. Why do some of you insist on mis-using the term SCAB?
3. Is NWA (DAL) and TPG to be held harmless in all of this?
4. Where was the outrage when the ground personnel were fired and then re-hired under Skyway for a fraction of the pay?

I like how everyone seems to be ignoring your post. Good questions though, esspecially 4.

 

[Draginass]

Very sad and shows how ALPA has become a toothless lapdog.

All the while, ALPA and DALPA lobbies the FAA to actually INCREASE the number of flying hours per day.

It'd be comical if it wasn't so pathetic.

 

[Propsync]

I love how management gets away with ALL OF THE BUSINESS DECISIONS and all of the widgets here blame each other. Like moths to bright light. It will happen again.

Avro Guy. Even better. The rampers were moved back to Midwest late last year/earlier this year. I wish I could find a way to blame the Republic pilots for this management decision, but I can't.

 

[runwayjockey]

=Propsync;1907651 I wish I could find a way to blame the Republic pilots for this management decision, but I can't.

Flying planes for 1/2 of what YX pilots make, probably did not play a role in this what so ever! Keep lying to yourself if it makes you feel better!

 

[altimaklr]

Now a lot of these guys are stuck making 1/3 flying for Allegiant. At least Vegas is warmer than MKE.

 

[Propsync]

Flying planes for 1/2 of what YX pilots make, probably did not play a role in this what so ever! Keep lying to yourself if it makes you feel better!

I don't work for an airline. I just hate the ignorance of the FI wizards that think Midwest was some well oiled machine that got taken down by pilots that were paid less. Get real. Midwest MANAGEMENT failed at every turn since say the decision to get 717's, arguably since the decision to get 328's, and maybe earlier than my time at Skyway. There is a list of missteps that most know about.

By the time I left Skyway in 2007, it was a complete mess. There was no way the company wouldn't get sold. Anybody taking that sinking ship over was going to destroy it. If TPG buys you and doesn't put money in or get new aircraft right away, you are doomed. Just leaving old Timmy at the helm should have been sign enough. TPG took the cash, sold the rest of the assets, and gave the carcass to Republic. I have a hard time seeing your logic on how the Republic line pilots masterminded this 'coup'.

 

[Full of LUV]

Not mastermind, enablers....

I have a hard time seeing your logic on how the Republic line pilots masterminded this 'coup'.

I don't think anyone thinks they masterminded it, just enable it by facilitating the smooth transfer of a company's good reputation with a substantially cheaper workforce.....

 

[Flightdawg]

I love how management gets away with ALL OF THE BUSINESS DECISIONS and all of the widgets here blame each other.

Agreed. We're our own worst enemies. The blame game explains why it is virtually impossible to form a true national union since too many pilots were so wrapped up in themselves, they would fail to see the larger picture. It's business. The real culprit is airline deregulation. The only solution to this problem I keep hearing is telling a kid fresh out of flight school to not take a job until he has more experience. It is naive to think a young pilot would pass up an opportunity to make two to three times the money flying for a Part 121 regional rather than slaving away in a C-172.

Further, I'll hazard a guess that the majority of the pilots bitching about the race to the bottom and pilots working for lower pay are also staunch, pro-business Republicans against "socialized" anything.

 

[dougdrvr]

I like how everyone seems to be ignoring your post. Good questions though, esspecially 4.

It's a great question, and the answer is, they were non-union and as such, were at will employees. They were a great bunch and did a helluva job but with no legal backing they were just a cost index to management. No one cares how good a job you do.

 

[Popeye0537]

That is just sad. How can we let this happen anymore.... I am at a loss for words right now. It never did hit me what this all meant until seeing that video. You think it is just words on an internet screen or an article in a paper, but when you watch that viedo it makes perfect sense now......now I am pissed, we need to protect our jobs from these undercutting regional pukes.

I guess ATA should have made a similar video for you to watch. How many lives did Southwest ruin with that one? Were you pissed off then or just happy to see your upgrade times falling?

 

[Cometman]

I guess ATA should have made a similar video for you to watch. How many lives did Southwest ruin with that one? Were you pissed off then or just happy to see your upgrade times falling?

Totally differnt cases. ATA was nothing like this casse. Go back and read what happened to ATA and then tell me it is the same thing.
It is also possible that a lot of guys that are watching this video were not even around when ATA went under. You should be careful accusing someone before knowing all the facts.

 

[AvroGuy]

It's a great question, and the answer is, they were non-union and as such, were at will employees. They were a great bunch and did a helluva job but with no legal backing they were just a cost index to management. No one cares how good a job you do.

So since they were non-uninon there should be no outrage at getting fired then rehired at a lower wage. Ultimately we, pilots, should be pointing the finger at our selves. If you came from the civilian world you started out at a low pay job and moved up. The pilots at the top gave away the bottom of "their" flying so they could protect something like pay, retierment, work rules or whatever. We end up choosing what is best for us because I know you will not pay my morgage, feed my kids, or keep my electric on. For the better of the proffesion or not, that is the way it is. It is also something called free enterprise. Don't blame the pilots, blame the managers who made the poor decisions that ran the airline into the ground.

 

[EMBPILOT1]

I know several Republic pilots and and believe there are two types over there. One group, mostly senior guys who have been around for a while, are as embarrassed for what their management is doing with the company and other pilot groups. Then you have the junior guys(not all), who don't give a crap about anything other than their job and their quickest way to the left seat. Midwest flying is just another avenue for an upgrade or greater seniority. What I have learned in life though is, what comes around, goes around. For those who are happy for the fact that these midwest pilots are losing their jobs while the me me me generation gets the flying at half the pay, someday you might get yours!

 

[relief tube]

Super,

It is disgusting. The republic guys are the closest things to SCABS as we have in our generation. Thru PEBs, bankruptcy courts, etc there have been no strikes, BUT there has been opportunist(SCABS) amongst us. They will not be allowed on my jumpseat and super you don't have to accept one on yours as an FO if it will interfere with your job. My personal feeling is ALPA natl. needs to come out and label them as such and deny them the privilege.

I

How do you figure? Midwest going away wouldn't have happened if they were making money, and no airlines are making money today because we have $39 fares. The 4 or 5 airlines out there with $39 fares are the real fault of all this BS.

 

[samballs]

You guys know some Delta pilot is on here saying "They can have them I ain't flying that trainer plane"

 

[runwayjockey]

I guess ATA should have made a similar video for you to watch. How many lives did Southwest ruin with that one? Were you pissed off then or just happy to see your upgrade times falling?

Your logic is flawed. ATA sold gates to SWA to raise cash. Established a codeshare with SWA to increase cashflow. Only to have everthing dismantled by G.A.L. when they decided it was not cost effective to continue whipsawing them against World Air Holdings.

The pilots of SWA did not subsidize the take over of ATA with substandard wages. How can you argue that industry leading wages were used to underbid ATA operations by the pilots of SWA.

What it comes down to is there are way too many pilots and when supply exceeds demand, prices (wages) drop. As long as we have people willing to fly planes for $20000 a year we will see no improvement from wages being depressed. Like so many others have tried to explain to you before, we have nobody else to blame but ourselves!