Don't Buy Flows...Am I the Only One?

[your_dreamguy]

Hey,

Since I've got my first real job, I noticed there was a big emphasis placed on memorizing flows. I had to play ball and memorize my flows. Now that I'm dealing in the real-world, I'm taking the viewpoint that not only do I not like flows but I don't think they are necessary. Does anyone agree with me on this?

Let me make my argument. First, they (being the company and all other pro pilots) state that memorizing flows are necessary because it saves all sorts of time. Well, I think memorizing flows takes up more time. If you just run the checklist it takes "X" amount of time. If you go the flow route, you have to spend time doing the flow and then add time to go over the checklist again.
Further, how much time can it save? If you're at busy airports, you're usually stuck in line, so, the time that you supposedly saved running flows is canceled out by waiting around.

I just don't understand why you just can't safely run a check list and leave it at that. Especially for new pilots like myself. As a former flight instructor, the last thing I'd want my students doing is trying to flick switches on memory. So, why do it at the majors?

Is anyone else with me?

Please give me your 2 cents. Also, if you don't like my post, attack my idea, not me.

Take care.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Just go with the flow.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Dreamguy,

When you talk about just doing the checklist versus using a flow, do you mean using the checklist like a worklist? In other words, do you prefer reading the challenge off the checklist, accomplishing the item, then reading the reply?

It seems to me that regardless of which way you do it, you're still using a "flow"...completing a set of tasks in a certain order.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I think you will find that your arguments do not hold up once you complete training and start flying the line.

You will be surprised how fast checklists run in the real world. Flows do speed things up considerably, especially when you are new to the airplane. Considering that you do the same checklists 5 to 9 times a day, after a few months you know the exact verbage by memory. You are actually doing the checklist from memory and backing it up with the callouts.

With the exception of a couple of big time gotchas, the paper checklist simply verifys that you performed your memory items.

It is easy to tell the guy that is back from a two week vacation, he is the one that is behind, and stumbling through the checklist because his flows have faded a little during his time off.

Simply put, there is not time in the real world of airline flying to look up each item on the checklist before you do it. For instance, (Tower) "Airline XYZ...cleared immediate takeoff, no delay" (Captain): "Final items" F/O : does them from memory.....then backs them up with checklist with his required callouts. By the time the F/O gets to the actual reading of the list and verifying chances are the power is already coming up and you are on to the next set of callouts (Speed, power, v1 etc...)

Remember, in the sim you are in a training environment, hardly ever over 250 knots and 10,000 feet. In the real world you are dealing with heavy traffic, clearance changes, sids, stars, crossing restrictions, assigned speeds, weather,etc etc etc... the more you have in your head the easier all the rest of it falls into place.



By the way I hated learning them also! But you will appreciate the effort later.

 

[hobbsmeter]

Just go with the flow. Come back and post your thoughts after you've been out on the line for a month or 2 and tell us what you think.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Flows are a wonderful thing. A pain in the ass to learn, but that is expected moving into a new and complex airplane. I couldn't imagine running checklists like we had to back during my flight training and instructing. No worries, with time you'll find that the flows make your life much easier on the line.

 

[LearLove]

In every group...... "one kids not like the others, one kids doin' his own thing...."

 

[typhoonpilot]

Taken to the highest level of automation available in a Boeing the checklist is completed by doing the flow. Since the Boeing 777 has an electronic checklist with closed loop ( sensed ) items once the switch, lever, or selector is in the correct position the item is automatically checked off and need not be read on the checklist.

Flows plus checklists on older aircraft also serve the purpose of being a double check. You check the position of switches once by doing the flow and then check them again when you verify the position while the checklist is read.

I'm with you you though, I hate the process of learning flows but once you got them down it is fine.

Typhoonpilot

 

[USMCAirWinger]

I find that even at the Private level flows are the way to go. The way I see it, you need to know how to fly the airplane. Pilots get used to using the checklist as a "to do" list and dont take the time to actually learn the procedures for the specific airplane.

 

[CFI'er]

We can tell you did not attend one of the "Big Academies" They (BA's) tend to use a form of "flow/check list" in their training. After a while, it becomes second nature and is easy. The more complex aircraft you fly, the more important flows become. Don't take the attitude it is not necessary and just redundent. It just might bite you one day during a check ride.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flows

Since I've got my first real job, I noticed there was a big emphasis placed on memorizing flows. I had to play ball and memorize my flows. Now that I'm dealing in the real-world, I'm taking the viewpoint that not only do I not like flows but I don't think they are necessary. Does anyone agree with me on this?

(emphasis added)

Your statement that you "had to play ball" is indicative of a bad attitude and resistance. You should try to be more accepting of different concepts, especially because flows are more the rule than the exception in line flying.

Flows are how business is done in the real world. They are generally created around the natural flow of valves, levers and switches in the cockpit. They make your cockpit checks organized and systematic. The panel and console almost becomes your checklist. Flows really make life easier, if you can keep that concept in mind.

I remember my first flight in the right seat of a King Air. I noticed how the pilot flipped and manipulated the switches and levers without aid of a checklist. I thought, "how unsafe." It went against everything I had learned about checklists. I asked him where was his checklist. He pointed to his head and said, "My checklist is up here." I later went to work for ERAU, which taught flows to primary students in 172s and Seminoles. I had never heard of the concept of flows until I came to Riddle, but I learned them and taught them. It then dawned on me that the King Air pilot was using a flow and he was not unsafe.

I learned later that the flows that we taught Riddlers were adapted from flows used at Horizon. At Riddle, we taught students to flow and verify with checklist. I thought that was great training, a terrific way to prepare them for line flying during the formative stages of their training. A way to help them to adapt quicker and easier to line flying.

You are still using a checklist when flowing, except that you are no longer using it as a recipe list. That's how line flying is done. Try to get used to it.

 

[merikeyegro]

Had I not known my emergency flows, I would not likely be sitting here today. Had a prop stop at 3,000' MSL about 10 miles away from an airport. The memory items burned into my head came out in about 3 seconds during a bit of a panic. Got the engine restarted after running the flows and even adding a little creativity at the end. I was d@mn glad that I knew the flows. Prior to using flows for procedures, emergencies were a pain. I didn't know them by memory very well and finding the checklist in the middle of an emergency just doesn't work very well.

Just learn the flows. Use flash cards and a cockpit mock-up. You'll be thankful you did when push comes to shove. Saved my bacon.

 

[duckman]

Ever consider a single seat A/C (I recommend F-16's)....no "Flows" in those...Never looked at a checklist.

 

[FN FAL]

Ever consider a single seat A/C (I recommend F-16's)....no "Flows" in those...Never looked at a checklist.

I don't think microsoft flight sim counts.

 

[TonyC]

Checklists and Flows

Coming from a military background, the only "flows" I knew about were related to fuel or airfoils. I was skeptical. Now I'm sold.

Although Webster dosen't support me on this, I contend that absent a flow, the checklist isn't really a checklist, but rather a "DO" list, or as someone mentioned earlier, a "WORK" list. The flow allows to you accomplish the work in a logical order, and the checklist allows you to INSURE that certain items have been accomplished - - you CHECK to insure they've been accomplished.

It's a work-saving, time-saving approach that has been proven throughout the industry to be both safe and effective.

If you're being paid to be a professional, be professional about it.

 

[duckman]

I don't think microsoft flight sim counts.

What is that FN???

 

[bart]

You should tell them they are doing it all wrong!

You would not believe the amount of instant respect you will generate by simply marching into the CPs office and tell them that flows are a waste of your time.

They will probably be relieved that you have discovered what has been in the way of them having a truly safe and efficient cockpit.

Now that the sarcasm is out of the way...

Good thing you came here with it first. Learn your flows, and do them. Learn them better than anyone else, and back them up with the checklist every time. Volunteer to work with new guys to memorize their flows.

This along with figuring out why you have a problem with authority will go a long way towards insuring your long term employability. Otherwise you may want to consider flying single pilot freight.

 

[100LL... Again!]

You may not have meant it this way, but your post seems to imply that you know better than your entire training department, operations department, and evey line pilot that uses flows.

Maybe they know something YOU don't.

Kind of bold for a rookie, with little real-world experience.



Apologies if you did not intend to say this.

 

[dash8driver]

flows save time in getting the items done and the airplane configured.. which is the main point. if you had to do-verify the whole checklist without a flow, it would take longer to get the plane configured. granted the time spent on the whole task takes longer from start to finish, but the whole objective is to get the plane configured, then you got time to verify it with the checklist.

 

[TDTURBO]

Is there a textual description of a flow for certain aircraft? I own a 182RG an don't use a checklist since it's the only plane I fly. I fly about 200hrs/yr and found that the checklist was subconciously replaced by my own "flow". I move from left to right and do the check items that way. I don't want to overlook a better way, is there some kind of way to apply this method to little planes?

I am sure I am not doing a proper "flow" but I would like to know if there is a way to extrapolate one from the checklist. The way I am doing it now is just a natural evolution from having done the same checklist hundreds of times. It feels lame to pull the thing out after flying the same plane for 4 years. I know this breeds or has bred complacency and don't want to be the guy they talk about if something bad should happen; ie, "What an idiot, all he had to do was read the checklist and it wouldn't have been missed". Remember, I am the ONLY one flying this airplane and I always use the checklist after mx. I guess I am looking for a more efficient way of doing things that won't miss anything. Thanks for the help!