Does AF UPT student time count for SWA?

[YeOldeProp]

Lots of good info on the subject...with the usual minor doses of dissention just to keep the thread hot. Gonna try and summarize the safest way to fill out the columns from the SWA app based on what the gang on line have said. Just looking at the military hours (AF Form 5/Flying History Report) and not extra civvie flying y'all have gotten over the years. And as Snoopy58 has rightly said in the past...folks on this site aren't on the HR or interview panels...so take this compilation with a grain of salt. If seriously worried...call the HR folks and get the real no-kidding answer (and share with the rest of us). Again, just trying to summarize.

Total Flying Hours:
All your PIC(A code) + SIC(A code) + IP/EP (combined) + Dual recv'd/student (summarized as everything in UPT up through your first MWS aircraft commander checkride--early for fast jet guys, later for heavies) + a .3 hour per total sortie (as in from the very beginning of your flying career) correction IAW the SWA request. Disregards any "other" time you've picked up over the years whether you were A-coded or not. Biggest hours number on the app, especially if you add in civvie flying hours.

Jet PIC: (fast jet guys please edit/correct as required)
All your PIC(A code) + SIC(if in a two-seater???) + IP/EP (combined) + a .3 hour per sortie since your aircraft commander upgrade (or initial MWS checkride?). Cargo/bomber guys probably follow the criteria in the below paragraph. Don't put your UPT solo time (again...the safest way to input to SWA). Still a debate about PIC when solo...

Turboprop PIC:
All your PIC(A code) + SIC(A code) + IP/EP (combined) (after your first MWS aircraft commander checkride) + a .3 hour per sortie (A code sorties only) correction. Probably a good idea to trim the total by 10% (per Ivauir's suggestion) to account for training time, times when you weren't the A-code but flew (dual crew deployment to overseas, etc). If you need the hours...don't take the 10% off the top.

Total Turboprop/Jet hours:
Same criteria as Total Flying Hours above.

Turboprop/Jet Time (military transport/cargo) PIC and SIC blocks:
Use the hours criteria from PIC and all the other is SIC. Info is just split out to make it easier to see. Again, no other time involved at all. Add civvie time as your log books are written.

Jet Fighter/Bomber Time: Fast jet guys show what they've done, and Bomber guys probably need to follow the same as above.

Sorry if this rambles, but just wanted to try and get one combined "suggestion" of what to put down to satisfy the SWA People department, and make the day of the logbook checker that much easier when you get there. So...let the shooting begin...I'm sure this thing has a fair share of targets in it and am waiting for them to be pointed out...

Off to get a cold one after all this typing and brain confusement. Good luck all...

 

[Spur]

I'll take the first shot on the previous post

1. You cannot log SIC unless the aircraft requires two pilots, and you are rated in that aircraft. So no logging SIC in the T-37 or T-38 or whatever while you are on a CT and the other dude is the PIC. Also no logging SIC until your first qual checkride in dual pilot aircraft.

2. Time as an EP generally doesnt count for squat. When giving a checkride the examinee is the PIC. I'm sure there are exceptions but that is the general rule.

 

[Falconjet]

Military=AF

Again, I would just like to point out that there are a lot of military and Naval Aviators who weren't in the AF and don't thave a Form 5 flying summary.

A minor point but one that the AF guys seem to miss, not all "military" flying time is flown in the AF.

Phew, glad to get that off my chest again.

FJ

 

[tkr-toad]

falconjet,
No bias, just more AF representation here speaking from what they know. If any Navy/Coast Guard/Marine/Army folks out there want to chime in, this discussion will benefit more than just AF flyers. As an AF pilot, I wouldn't presume to know anything about logging time in the other services.

 

[YeOldeProp]

Agreed Falconjet...and not throwing stones at anyone from any of the military services---as well as the one with double duty as a rep of the Dept of Transportation (isn't Coast Guard still DOT--thus not stuck with some of the real world restrictions we AF types are stuck with? Got us out of trouble after a natural disaster down in the Caribbean one year, because you have much more flexible interpretations of when you can be used to support State Dept, etc.).

The summary was based on AF only because I can't speak for the rest of the services. Sat a desk on a Navy base for 3 years, but sure as he11 don't want to add up the time I spent in that seat. Intended the summary to spark all to come up with a good safe way to have themselves and their buddies represent their hours to the SWA panel. AF times were just what was more prevelant on the thread, as well as being the most screwed up sometimes (to "make thing difficult" is almost becoming a sanctioned sport in the AF).

So, jump on in and give us a good way for the rest of the services to report their time. I'm sure there's a couple of folks who want to ask the question, but just haven't yet.

And a quick side note to Spur's comment on EP time. In the real AF...you're mostly right, with only a few exceptions. But if you've ever done an FTU tour, you'll get the A code as the EP (in the seat the whole time, etc.). Commanders just won't sign the orders for a student to have the A code, even on a checkride.

Good luck to all

 

[CMRaviator]

Since we're on the topic on how to correctly log AF flight time, I'll throw another scenario out there. I'm an airline guy going through UPT. (Commercial Multi-Inst) I've asked several IPs around the squadron on how I should be logging the time, only to get different answers. I realize the T-37 is a single pilot aircraft and have logged the time as dual/student. However, I'm curious how you all would log the T-1 time?

Some of the answers I"ve gotten:

1. Log all as student, you don't have your AF wings (although I have the civilian certificates)

2. Log all time as SIC

3. Log as PIC since it can be considered transition training towards the BE40 type.

Finally, what do you do with "jump" time?

Any inputs you may have would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

llowell

Your UPT time is listed on the page of your flight records that has your grand total summary. That will be the last page when you get AFORMS to get you a Flying History Report. It is listed about 1/3 of the way down the page. It combines your PhaseII and Phase III flying into one total amount. Roughly on the T-37 syllabus 70 jets and 95 hours if you did not get many extra training sorties or have many end of block repeat rides. If you flew 38s then it should be about 110 hours and 95 sorties. For the T-1/T-44 guys, your student time should only be the time you were getting primary in the seat and not the other time that went in the forms for the time you were in the jumpseat watching the other dummy fly. Somewhere in your flight records folder when you outprocessed from your training base there is a summary from TRIM/TIMS that should give you a more exact breakdown of each sortie flown for each phase of training.

For you new guys out there reading this thread, if you don't keep a log book, at least keep a copy of your final resume at the end of each phase of JSUPT/JPPT and I highly recommend keeping a copy of your entire gradebook with all associated complete category grade summaries, resumes and all of your 803A/4293s.

If you keep a log book at UPT, keep track of the night time, instrument time and approaches flown. The syllabus takes care of this and is recorded in your grade book, not on the 781. So if your IP takes instrument time and you were flying, then put it in your log book, same goes for the night time. For active duty guys, this is not so important because in 10 years it all won't matter, this is more important for you Guard/Reserve dudes who may be trying to get on with regional/commuter/corporate after UPT before you upgrade at your unit in an attempt to get multi-PIC turbine faster than simply hanging at the trough or trying to diversify your resume/log book.

I log time almost strictly by FAR part 1, only when I was in charge and could/would get in trouble if something went wrong. Therefore all time in the seat in any training program counts for my total time, any instrument or night if flown under those conditions, and got logged under dual received.

When I fly CT, I take the entire PIC time for my own logbook regardless of the primary/instructor split, if I outrank whoever I flew the sortie with, unless I was getting a Form 8 checkride from someone who was actually of less rank which happens. If I fly with someone who outranks me, I put it down in my total time, and as either dual received or nothing.

At PIT, and at my base during mission qual training. I took dual received for all sorties until I had an IP letter in that airplane. I did not take SIC, because as previously stated if the airplane is certed for single pilot ops, then you can't take SIC.

Student Solo time is PIC, the IP is not responsible for the airplane, no one else is but the student pilot. God gave man free will and if you go out and buzz farmer joe or shine your a$$ for your girlfriend while solo, I will not get into trouble. I will get asked if I noticed any tendencies for you to have lapses in judgement and fly with out regarding the rules and my answer will be NO, OF COURSE NOT! If you have a ticket and the FAA finds out about such actions, they will take yours not mine, and if you don't have a ticket and the FAA finds out about this, I will still have my ticket and you will probably never get a ticket. This is especially true now since all US students have to have a PPL to enter training.

Student time in the T-1 could be logged as SIC when you are in the seat with a set of flight controls. By reading 61.55 I could see where an interpretion could be made that the laundry list of SIC requirements had been met by a combination of your Phase I instrument check in T-37/6s and all your training leading up to the transition check in T-1s. Except for the instrument work, that checkride is enough for a type rating, you just don't get the letter to take to the FAA until you finish the entire course. So you could defendably take everything after that checkride as SIC.

After graduation, you are an instrument pilot, and all academics at Altus, Little Rock and anywhere else for big airplanes is enough to start logging SIC the moment you get in the C-21/130/17/5 and KC-135/10 and any other transport out there.

Also, 61.55 leads me to the conclusion that the only fighter SIC time possible is in F-15E/F-4/F-111/EA-6 type aircraft. These can not do their wartime missions with only one pilot on board and in the case of the F-4, they used to send it out with two pilot crews, and the Japanese Defense Forces still fly it with two pilots. So today, a mission ready qualified WSO in a Strike Eagle that has a Commercial/Multi with an instrument rating can log SIC even though he is not an AF pilot. Navy guys please chime in with your thoughts on NFOs in Prowlers and Tomcats.

Now this seems contrary to the SWA app instructions about WSO time, but remember they are setting the rules, so they can do whatever they want. If there are any ex WSOs out there who fall into that category of having all those ratings when you were flying those aircraft, I am sure a call to the FAA for a clear interpretation, then a call to the People Dept can clear this up. You are an extremely rare case and they can't write an instruction for every situation, so you may get to log it for the app.

I agree with the other responses about other time, even if you had the A-code. I don't count mine. Mainly because I keep a civilian/military combined log book and I want to know how much time I was in a seat with a set of controls. If you really kept track sortie by sortie of other time where you had the A and can defend it with out being argumentative, go for it, if not and you have the time to apply, leave it alone.

As far as my civilian time goes, anytime I fly with another CFI giving me training either for an add on rating, rental checkout I count it as dual received only when filling out apps even though the person who signed the log book on the training given may have filled it out as PIC dual received.

My log book differs from my flight records when it comes to night time. The AF only logs primary night. So on 4 hour C-130 sortie, the AC takes 2 primary/2 secondary and 2 primary night. He flew at night for four hours whether he was manipulating the controls or not, so in a civilian log book that should be recorded as 4 hours of night. 61.51 does not specify whether night time is logged as PIC or SIC it says record the conditions of flight, but it does specify for instruments that you must be the sole manipulator of the controls. The exception to that of course being instructors flying in actual IMC can log instrument time even if the student is flying.

That is a long $.02. Any other questions, go ask the FSDO, if you like what they tell you, get it in writing and keep it. Opinions vary from location to location, so call around.

 

[llowwelll]

Tweetdrvr,

Wow!! Thanks for going into such detail with your explanation of how to count hours!

 

[Cyclone]

apples and oranges

Student time is not "PIC"
IMO If you flew 200 hours in training to get your wings, you flew 200 hours of student time. If you can avoid "counting" any of this as PIC I would choose this as the prudent thing to do.

Why give the appearance of inflating numbers? I think erring to the conservative side is the right thing to do. This post and the post about speeding tickets is all about the 'technicalities of the semantics according to some amateur legal definition.' The reality is that you will put yourself in a better light in the interview if you answer "as honestly as possible." Why (even in the slightest way) give the appearance of working the system? If you have a speeding ticket (nolo contendre, alibi, driver school, thrown out...) list it and then be honest...learn something from it.

As far as flying time, it's the same thing. Be conservative; why "stretch things?" If you're an AF F-15 pilot and flew with an IP in your plane are you the SIC? Don't think so...you are the student. SIC is for big heavy crew planes with type ratings that have more than one pilot (F-15s don't have type ratings). But the point is the same...why set yourself up to "have to explain" at the interview? Wouldn't it be easier to take the strictest definition and then look like a hero at the interview? Don't think the 9.2 extra PIC hours will make or break "when they call for the interview." That's a silly path to go down if you think it will help more than it will hurt when you "have to explain." Keep it as simple as you can...you're going to have to do the explaining.

Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position.

If it was my application; all the pilot training time would be "student" and not counted towards PIC (not worth the hassle of adding this time...the very few extra PIC hours).

Any "training" sortie flown with an IP...student. (Conservative view, but this makes it easy to explain to the logbook checker). You decide.

 

[Bake]

I have to agree with Ivuair. Bear with me I did not read all the posts. UPT time should not be counted for anything other than total time even if you were solo. For you heavy drivers out there, If you logged "other" time in the C-21 for example throw that crap away it is good for nothing. Also, if you were a stan/eval pilot, evaluator time should be thrown out unless the guy busted half way across the pond and you had to take over. But it is easier just to throw it away than figure that out. For T-37, 38 or any other single seat aircraft. ONce you completed your Initial Qual checkride which will show up on Aforms as FP or MP depending on what aircraft it is PIC unless you are a Stan eval pilot giving someone a checkride. NOTE: Giving student phase checkrides in UPT is not a checkride, it is an instructional sortie so that is PIC. As I have told some, be able to justify everything you do. Bottom line, if you don't feel like you should get PIC time for something you flew don't count it as such. If you feel like you should get PIC time but a bunch of us are telling you not to log it as such, be careful and be ready to explain why you thought it should be PIC.

Bake

 

[Falconjet]

Airline Job Aspirations

If you have ANY interest in getting an airline job when you get out of the military you should be logging your time in a logbook yourself. You should also review it once in a while to make sure it jibes with your AF Form 5 if you have one. You can add the sortie correction as you go if you log it yourself or you can try to add it all up later on in life. It would be a heck of a lot easier to just keep a real time log (esp with computer programs so easy now) as you go with your signature at each year or month or some other duration to vouch for your times. Its not that hard to do. Figuring out which time to log and how, however, seems to be quite a source of debate.

tkr-toad: I don't think the AF folks are biased, I just think often readers get confused when AF folks generalize their AF experiences by saying "military" instead of "AF". They sometimes assume that the way they did it in the AF is applicable to any military pilot, but its not. No big deal, just a point of order perhaps.

YeOldeProp: Yes the CG was in the DOT, but were incorporated into the new Dept of Homeland Security last year. Still the same service (I think), but no longer having to battle the FAA for funds through the DOT. Most Coasties think that is a change for the better.

FJ

 

[Snoopy58]

Situation: crew airplane, real Air Force (not UPT / FTU), and the copilot is getting a checkride. The evaluator is in the left seat; no other pilots on board. How is the left seater's time logged?

EP.

Who had the A-code? The guy logging EP time. Is that EP time legit PIC time? You bet.

Use some fraction of your EP time if you really want to (but, see below, last paragraph), but AF flight records don't differentiate between "EP standing" and "EP in the seat with the A code" time. I'm reasonably confident that SWA won't be concerned if you count ALL your EP time as PIC for their purposes.

If you're still bothered by it, consider it as "payback" for all the "A-code but not in the seat" OTHER time that you can't count!


YeOldeProp -- your long post above, I think you transpose "PIC" with "Primary" and "SIC" / "Secondary" in a couple of places.

Also, nowhere does SWA reference a "take 10% (or any other number) off" factor for MP time that your weren't the A-code. In the same vein as not "inventing" fudge factors to increase your time, I don't think there's any point in arbitrarily applying fudge factors in decrease your time.

Conservative method, I agree to leave off the UPT time (though I'd check with the P.D. on that), but use ALL your MP pri/sec and IP and EP time, with the .3, no discounts. That's the most standardized approach, and puts everybody on a level field, which is what SWA wants.

Cheers!

 

[mig1f16]

Turboprop/jet time?

My apologies for being slightly off the subject, but can someone please explain what SWA is looking for in the "turboprop/jet" section? Is it prop time they want (in my case zero), or do they want turbojet time as well (fighter and trainer time)? Thanks!!!

 

[Cyclone]

hmmmm

I'm going to go out on a limb here.

My instinct is that SWA would probably not have a problem with someone who asks questions if they're not sure how something works. There's no such thing as a stupid question.

I do think they'd have a problem with meanspirited people though...just my gut.

 

[tkr-toad]

Amen!

 

[mig1f16]

turboprop/jet time

O.k...my apologies...definite miscommunication with the verbage...no offense intended for those prop drivers out there...I just am not sure what SWA wants in that blank that asks for turboprop/jet time...I don't have prop time, but I do have turbojet time...also the very next blank is one for fighter/bomber hours (which is where my turbojet hours come from)...soooooooo...am I o.k. to put the same time in both blanks? any thoughts/advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[shootr]

Turboprop/jet vs fighter/bomber

Talked to LL last week for some friends and her answer to the military turboprop/jet vs. fighter/bomber goes as follows....

Turboprop/jet = C-130, P-3, KC-10, S-3, C-5, C-141, U-2 and ALL A/C that start with a "T" (T-34, T-45, T-2, T-38, T-1). Obviously, this is not the all-inclusive list, but basically, everything that's not a fighter/bomber.

Fighter/bomber = F-14, F-16, F-18, B-1, A-10, etc. Didn't ask if B-52's fit into this list but it starts with a B, so go figure!

Good luck all,
shootr

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Ok, this is a little sarcastic, but I have to ask.

When I am sitting at my desk while the student is flying solo after flying the previous sortie with me, can I take that as PIC or does it go into God's logbook?

Flame Away

 

[Bake]

tweetdriver, Would you feel right taking that time as PIC? What would you say if an interviewer asked you the question you asked above? Answer your own question as if you were the one giving the interview and there you will find your answer.

Bake

 

[Spur]

When I am sitting at my desk while the student is flying solo after flying the previous sortie with me, can I take that as PIC ... ?

Only if you're the SOF... He's always the PIC.