Does AF UPT student time count for SWA?

[llowwelll]

I hadn't realized that I might not be able to count this until earlier today when I was talking to one of my buddies. He said he doesn't count student time logged during US Air Force undergraduate pilot training on his app's. I counted it as SIC time. I hadn't even considered that it might not count. Does anybody have a good read from SWA on what the policy on this is? Obviously, I want to comply with what they want. Here's what SWA's website says about logging hours:

2500 hours total or 1500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command, as defined by FAR PART I is required. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted.

Also, do any of the Air Force brethren out there know how to get a breakdown of our hours from UPT? I was remiss and did not keep a logbook. Thanks in advance!!

 

[Bake]

Your student time in UPT will count for Total time only. When I applied at SWA, I found it very easy to change my AF flight records into what SWA wanted. During my interview, the gentleman that checked my flight times looked at it closely and said that everything looked "right on the money". If any of you AF types need help with this stuff, PM me and I will be glad to help you out. I will be on a trip until monday the 19th so don't expect any replies till then.

Bake

 

[Bill Nelson]

You can log it as total time. Count it as dual received. Then just make sure your Dual, SIC, and PIC all add up to equal your total time.

 

[RShebib]

Also, you can count any solo time in UPT as PIC, especially if you are close to the PIC mins.......

 

[shootr]

Countng PIC time as a solo UPT student...be careful about that. Impossible to justify if you did not yet have wings or a PP license. With a PP license at the time you may be able to justify it but without a certificate, I think you couldn't and would look like you filled out the app dishonestly. If you're that close, keep flying for a few weeks and then apply. Just my opinion.

BTW, I did not have a certificate while in flight school and did not count my solo time as PIC, I counted it as dual given. The logbook checker at my SWA interview agreed with my hours 100%.

Good luck all,
shootr

 

[RShebib]

Everytime I was solo in an aircraft I put down as PIC. I annontated that on my summary sheet I brought in with me for my jetBlue interview and they had no problem with it at all. It's nice to offer someone advice to just hang out a little longer and get the hours when we have the job. When it's you out there looking for the job and adding the solo time could put you over the edge in PIC time, then I don't see anything wrong with it...as long as you show where you got your time and you weren't trying to hide/pad your time, the checkers shouldn't have any problem with it.....

 

[Hutcha]

You can get a break down of your hours from your flight records. It should list every flight you had in UPT.

 

[YeOldeProp]

Bill Nelson opens up a can of worms for airlift/tanker types. gonna be asked eventually, so I'll ask it to get more the answers flowing.

What is the read on annotating "Other time" in your overall "total time"? Shouldn't your total time actually indicate the number of hours you've been in the air, then the PIC/SIC portions are for breaking out your "quality hours"?

What about the following scenario? You're the PIC on a 3 pilot crew for a trip, carrying the A code for the entire mission. Do you discount the time out of the seat, or are you counting it since you're watching over the other two when they're in the seat. Or if you're the A-code instructor standing during local training. (yeah--I know the A code should've been the pilot in tng...had a commander who's rule was that the senior pilot always carried the A-code and other pilots were coded with other things that made it legal for him to be in the seat for T/O and landings).

I can see if you have well over the mins to drop that other time out of the equation, but what about those who are closer to the mins and could use the A code time to their advantage? Having PIC + SIC + student/dual recv'd = total time makes it easy on the logbook checker (and that is an important factor), but does it show the whole story?

Hadn't really thought about it, and it will come up in the flight room discussions as hiring hopefully warms up...so I thought I'd ask the experts of the FlightInfo advisory group...good luck all.

 

[shootr]

Everyone that I personally know (including myself) who was hired at SWA in the last round of interviews broke down their flight time as follows...

"A" time (PIC time) + SIC time + dual received time = total time

If you were the A/C and got the "A" time, it's all PIC, even if you were not in the seat. In other words, who signed for the plane? The guys in the seat while you're out cannot claim any PIC because they did not sign for the plane and somebody had to be the PIC. It's OK if your military logs don't agree with your app 100% as long as you can effectively explain the difference (I brought a spreadsheet to the interview, used the above method, and was not at all questioned about the slight difference in total time). I could be wrong but when SWA says no "other" time counts, I do not believe they're talking about AF "Other" or Navy "Special Crew". They're just saying no other time besides fixed wing pilot time (no helo, nav, glider, etc).

If you were the Captain, it's all PIC. If you want to be conservative, count all "A" time as PIC but don't add the "Other" or "Special Crew" "A" time into the final Total Time block. The numbers won't add up but as long as you can explain why you were conservative, I doubt you'd have any problems.

In the past, it seemed once you were at the interview, they just checked your books to see that you indeed did have the mins. It wasn't the old United interview where everything better add up, or else! Still if you're conservative and can explain your numbers, the logbook check wil be a breeze.

Good luck all,
shootr

 

[Snoopy58]

I'm going to respectfully disagree here, and suggest that for an Air Force guy, you are far better off counting your "OTHER" time for nothing, nada, zero, zip, zilch. Ignore it entirely. Yes, it stinks to be the A-code in command, standing up & responsible for what's going on & getting no credit for it. However, here is my reasoning:

When they do the logbook check, they will look at the summary page of your AF Flight Records. They'll take the MP column, primary + secondary + (.3 * sorties), plus the IP/EP columns (+ .3 * sorties) and add it together. If that isn't your claimed PIC time, you're gonna have some 'splainin to do! (Add in your UPT solo time if that's the current word from the P.D. -- sounds like it is, but I'd double check that one!) They are very explicit about "no OTHER time counts," and to say "yes, but I was the A code on this mission, this mission, this mission, and this one" may very possibly come off as not following instructions, or worse, inflating your times. (Some guys it may not, but others it may, and do you really want to wager an otherwise successful interview on the mood of the logbook checker you draw?)

For the Navy guys, without the computer printout, the situation is different, because YOU are creating your "summary" sheet & you can log all the IN-COMMAND time appropriately, and you probably won't create any questions about it. This post is directed JUST to the AF folks.

To repeat, I know it's somewhat of a crummy deal for the AF heavy guys whose "in command" time is greater than their "in the seat" time; I dealt with that myself. Two redeeming thoughts: first, MP time is MP time, and since the printout doesn't distinguish between MP primary with the A-code vs MP primary without the A code, it's my understanding that you can use ALL your MP primary/secondary time as PIC. Thus, you do NOT need to subtract out time when, for instance, you were flying a training sortie with a standing or right-seat IP holding the A-code. Also, as soon as you upgrade to IP, all IP time counts as PIC, whether in the seat or not, A-code or not.

This is one guy's opinion, take it as such, but I would be VERY careful (i.e. call the PD folks & get a definite read) before using any "OTHER" time in your PIC or total time numbers! It does stink to have to wait to apply, but it would be far, far worse to get shot down & have to wait 3 years because they didn't like the way you do your times.

All the best,

Snoopy

 

[hopeful]

AF or not, if you are that close on the mins, who cares. You aren't competitive anyway.

Wait a few months until you get the mins then apply. Quit trying to "cheat" your numbers and apply when your are qualified.

 

[Aplus9]

From the site:
For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time."


Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered


UPT can count as Dual (student) time, but hopefully you are not relying on it for anything but your total time. Don't even try to use it to help out your PIC (ex. SOLO) time. Very grey, how grey? Charcoal.


Aplus

 

[ArchieF16]

AF or not, if you are that close on the mins, who cares. You aren't competitive anyway.

Wait a few months until you get the mins then apply. Quit trying to "cheat" your numbers and apply when your are qualified.

Wow....hope you're not making the calls for interviews....mins are mins and if someone wants to LEGALLY add certain times to his resume that will allow him to fill out an application, why discourage the guy. If you meet the mins, anything can happen, especially if you network your way good enough to get an interview. First thing is needing to meet mins, and I don't see any problem with what he's trying to do.

 

[hopeful]

The point is, he doesn't have the mins. Just wait a few more months and get the mins and then apply. My point was it probably won't matter too much in the scheme of things. If he networked well enough to get an interview then he should get one as soon as he meets the mins.

I am not trying to discourage anyone with the mins from applying for any job. The best way not to get hired is to not apply. The next best way is to lie about meeting the mins.

 

[ArchieF16]

And my point is if he can add his solo time into his total PIC time and that allows him to apply 1 or 2 or 3 months earlier, then I think he should do it. He's not adding hours hours he didn't fly...he's just counting hours that he didn't necessarily think about before...2 different things

 

[tkr-toad]

Don't do it!

Even though you were the sole occupant in your 37/38 etc., you shouldn't log PIC because you were only a "student pilot" and not yet a recognized AF pilot yet, let alone typed. You might have signed the 781 to ACCEPT the jet but your IP was the real pilot responsible. Anyway, how much time are we talking here - 20-30 hours tops? Wait the month and leave no question as to valid mins is my suggestion.

 

[ChicoC17]

Is it ok to log my time as a student in the T-1 as Second in Command?? I've only been flying in the AF for about two years and I'm confused on this Primary, Secondary, Other stuff. If I fly a leg that is 10.2 long with 3.3Pri 3.3 Sec and 3.6 other, can I put down 10.2 as total duration and then Prim and Secondary as second in command? then after I upgrade to AC I should put down the total duration as PIC since I'm in charge of the aircraft? Any suggestions on this matter would be great since I'm trying to start logging my flight time on a personal log. Thanks!!

 

[ArchieF16]

Re: Don't do it!

Even though you were the sole occupant in your 37/38 etc., you shouldn't log PIC because you were only a "student pilot" and not yet a recognized AF pilot yet, let alone typed. You might have signed the 781 to ACCEPT the jet but your IP was the real pilot responsible. Anyway, how much time are we talking here - 20-30 hours tops? Wait the month and leave no question as to valid mins is my suggestion.

I don't think the IP was anywhere near the jet during the solo flight, so, as the only pilot in an aircraft, I don't see anything wrong with logging PIC. Besides, if the guy is flying fighters, it could take 3-4 months to get those 30 hours.......

 

[ivauir]

Is it ok to log my time as a student in the T-1 as Second in Command?? I've only been flying in the AF for about two years and I'm confused on this Primary, Secondary, Other stuff.

The USAF doesn't break down time the same way the FAA or Airlines do. The easiest (and safest) way to break your time down is to count EVERYTHING prior to you first Qual Check in an MWS as student time. All primary and secondary time until you are an AC is then SIC. After you are an AC PIC time should equal you primary and secondary time and time you are the "A" code. If you didn't keep a log book take all of your pri and sec after your AC check ride and apply a percentage realistic to your MWS - I think I used 90%.

If this doesn't get you the mins - FLY MORE. If you meet the mins this way then you have nothing to gain by counting this "junk" and everything to lose. There are all kinds of "gray areas": solo during UPT, SIC in the T1, "other" time when you carried the "A" code etc. If after a 10 year career you can't come up with 1000 hours PIC (adding .3 per sortie!) doing it conservatively FLY MORE. The log book check should be a low threat event - if you are stressing over it you will probably blow the interview.

 

[Benhuntn]

Hate to pop your baloon while you are trying to figure times but not only does UPT time not count neither does time in any aircraft you trained in prior to your checkride. It as the man said, Dual received and good for total time only.


benhuntn