do you wear a parachute?

[Steve]

Jist wondering who wears a parachute. I've only flow a 2-33 amd dont see how I would fit in it with a rig on. I dont see being able to get out of the back seat with one on.

 

[mitsdriver]

2-33 would be a tight fit for anybody wearing a chute. Plus, it would be a tricky thing to bail out of one anyway (no quick release canopy). Most high-performance glass ships, and some metal ships such as Blanik, has seats designed to accomodate chutes and also has quick release belts and canopies for relatively easy egress. Many do fly with chutes on in such ships. Plus it's a requirement when flying in any SSA competition.

 

[Lead Sled]

I think that it all depends upon the type of soaring that you are doing. I normally wore a chute when we were thermaling - sometimes those gaggles could get pretty crowded. When we were flying the ridge we didn't - normally not enough altitude and you wouldn't have enough time to get it opened.

 

[Gorilla]

I've always thought an emergency chute was a great idea, and when I wore one I felt much better. It's important to do a mental escape drill every so often. Trim as needed, jettison canopy, unbuckle, bail out, D-ring.

I've often wondered why more GA guys don't wear them. They are light and comfy.

 

[WateryGrave]

I've always thought an emergency chute was a great idea, and when I wore one I felt much better. It's important to do a mental escape drill every so often. Trim as needed, jettison canopy, unbuckle, bail out, D-ring.

I've often wondered why more GA guys don't wear them. They are light and comfy.

I think for the same reason that 2-33 guys don't wear them. The only GA aircraft I've ever thought I would have a chance to get out of was when I was doing aerobatics in a citabria or decathalon. Can you imagine what it would take to get the door open on a 172 or a cherokee if you had a problem. I'm sure its possible but it would be a lot of work and take a lot of time.

 

[MJG]

I guess it depends on what you're doing with the glider, aerobatics vs. training/local flying. I haven't seen anyone flying one of our club gliders wear a chute. We have several folks with their own high performance glass ships that do pack a chute though.

 

[Gorilla]

I think for the same reason that 2-33 guys don't wear them. The only GA aircraft I've ever thought I would have a chance to get out of was when I was doing aerobatics in a citabria or decathalon. Can you imagine what it would take to get the door open on a 172 or a cherokee if you had a problem. I'm sure its possible but it would be a lot of work and take a lot of time.

True, the aircraft (or glider) must be set up with a door or canopy that has an emergency pin or some other mechanism to completely pop it free and have it sail off into the slipstream. There's always the chance you're gonna bonk the empennage, but if guys in WW2 could bail out of burning fighters successfully, it can't be any tougher on a C152.

 

[n32jk]

Actually,,,,,most 15 meter ships depend on a chute as a seat cushon.....wear one as such....I would be hard pressed to get out in a high g situation.....I used to jump...so I think I know what is involved...

Joe

 

[avbug]

but if guys in WW2 could bail out of burning fighters successfully, it can't be any tougher on a C152.

Have you ever climbed out of an aircraft with a parachute rig and jumped?

Very few reasons exist to exit a Cessna 152. How many do you know of that have come apart in flight, or burst into flame? They usually don't get shot up or suffer heavy flack damage while in the traffic pattern.

Exiting a burning military aircraft that's been shot to pieces and is going to be destroyed, means necessity. No other choice. In a Cessna 152, virtually always the best choice is to land the airplane.

Getting the doors open in flight is tough enough. Managing to squeeze out is tough. Managing to do so while protecting the pack pins or the deployment handle(s) to preclude an out of sequence or early parachute deployment, is virtually impossible in such a case, and is indeed a matter of life or death. Add to that an aircraft descending on fire, probably out of control if the need to egress has arisen, and the chances of a successful exit and deployment are increadibly low. A fighter can roll back or lose the canopy. What common GA aircraft can do this, aside from some ag and aerobatic aircraft?

Add to that the need to be stable before deploying (I can attest personally to what happens when one isn't...a total malfunction with pack closure and a pilot chute in tow...almost a horseshoe malfunction)...and the fact that most people who carry emergency parachutes have never received training in their use, or actually made a parachute jump...and you have a recipe for bad things to happen. After all, look at the Cirrus and it's sales gimmick of the CAPS parachute system. It's a panic button, which is often used as much, and has often failed...but how many of those who buy it and use it have ever actually descended under a deployed canopy of any kind? Most who have canopy time wouldn't be deploying that parachute, they'd be flying the airplane, if they only knew...

 

[C-141/C-5]

I would, did you read the recent post about a net jets flight havine a mid air with a glider. He lived because he had a chute

 

[avbug]

Yes I did...it's all over the internet right now.

You would wear a parachute in a cessna 152??

The glider is designed for inflight egress, as was the WWII fighter. Not the 152.

 

[C-141/C-5]

I was talking about a glider dumby

 

[avbug]

dumby

Oooh! A professional!

What would you say if you didn't have that college education?

 

[charter dog]

I was talking about a glider dumby

Oooh! A professional!

What would you say if you didn't have that college education?

Classic FI exchange!

That's what keeps 'em coming back. All that aviation talk is just a cheap smoke screen!

 

[Gorilla]

...the aircraft (or glider) must be set up with a door or canopy that has an emergency pin or some other mechanism to completely pop it free and have it sail off into the slipstream.

My only point was that I have often wondered why, in the last 60 years or so, the parachute as a safety component has been ignored by 99% of both manufacturers and participants in GA. It could be the final layer of safety in a deteriorating situation.

I have "bailed out" of a Huey (easy), which was intentional and supposed to be fun. I had one situation in a Grumman Yankee very early in my career where if I had had a chute, I might have used it, and survived without it only because of pure chance. I can think of a number of scenarios where a parachute and even a desperate bail-out attempt would be better than staying with the aircraft.

Rather than automatically sticking with the no chute paradigm that's been with GA for 50 or 60 years, I see no reason not to consider it in some fashion. "But people will do stupid things out of a false sense of security!" Maybe. They do stupid things anyhow, like Kennedy Junior, going places where they shouldn't be.

 

[CAL to T-1A]

I wear a parachute when flying a competition, cross-country, or aerobatics in gliders.

 

[n32jk]

Everyone should check out the DG web site about safety. Many things to consider when leaving a sailplane. Be especially aware of the dangers of being knocked out with a front hinged canopy and no roeger hook. The NOAH system looks interesting, but remember glide pilots are cheap. We won't even buy an engine.

The successful egress at minden had several factors in his favor. An ASW-27 is a modern ship with a roeger hook (guessing) and also the entire instrument panel leaves with the canopy when it is jettisoned. Also 16K feet of altitude helps a bit also.

Right now in the US we need to be worried what the impact of the Minden midair will have on our sport. That area has been identified as "where it was going to happen" for a long time. I worry about the restrictions that will be placed on soaring. Even a requirement for xponders and encoders will be a heavy burden. Hopefully this will fuel the push to allow gliders not to have to have a xponder on at all times if installed. Maybe over 10k or something. This will be a major crossroads for the life of the sport if the politicians go crazy with it.

Joe

 

[ultrarunner]

I'm not a glider pilot, but that mid air sure scared me as I fly in that area. Now I have worry about see and avoid of non-transpoder equiped airplanes when I'm flying around at 370 kias! Geez.

 

[n32jk]

I'm not a glider pilot, but that mid air sure scared me as I fly in that area. Now I have worry about see and avoid of non-transpoder equiped airplanes when I'm flying around at 370 kias! Geez.

I think it is more like now you are aware that you should have been worrying about it in that area all along.

Joe

 

[ultrarunner]

No Kidding!

 

[avbug]

Joe,

I worked at one time near that area, and flew in and out of Reno, Minden, Yerington, Carson, and most other locations throughout the area on a daily basis. It was constantly on my mind. Rather than moving to avionics soloutions, which may be unworkable for a number of reasons, starting with good old fashioned physical separation by keeping sailplane activity in one are and arrival/departure corridors in another may be a more viable soloution. More of an airspace issue. Drawbacks also exist ranging from weather to limiting soaring ground, which may be worked out...but truly this area has long been an accident waiting to happen. Everybody knows it.

 

[glasspilot]

Let me start by stating that I am not a glider pilot but would very much like to get the cert. (something seems truly pure about gliding and I'd like to try it.) Anyway, I digress...

Talking about the midair with the glider and the jet (I saw the pic of the jet. looks bad)...Why don't you glider pilots put a dang transponder in your aircraft? I know it would cost a few fpm in you thermalling but there has got to be a light and effective way to put a hand held unit in a glider. Maybe if you were as interested in safety devices (I'm talking specifically about the transponder) as you are about an extra 5 foot glide ratio, manufactures would make a very light transponder for gliders.

As a jet pilot I assure you that we do not "see and avoid". Sure down low in the pattern our eyes are outside but above a few thousand feet we mostly look out when the tcas yells traffic or ATC says there's traffic. A glider without a transponder would miss both of those systems.

I see two safe scenarios;

1. gliders get transponders. or...

2. gliders stay is airspace boxes so other planes don't hit 'em.

I swear to God I respect glider pilots. I don't want to restrict gliding. But there has GOT to be a way to put a transponder in a glider.
After all, we can put a Man on the Moon right? A computer chip in a dog, and a cell phone in the purse of a house wife on a farm in Iowa. Lets put a xponder in gliders.

Fly safe.

 

[ultrarunner]

I find it odd that a glider pilot doesn't WANT to be seen...but then, I'm not a glider pilot.

But I gotta believe that Akihiro Hirao would have appreciated the Hawker getting out of the way if they had gotten a TCAS alert.

Sad part is the Hawker pilot will prly get violated for not 'giving way'.

 

[avbug]

As a jet pilot I assure you that we do not "see and avoid". Sure down low in the pattern our eyes are outside but above a few thousand feet we mostly look out when the tcas yells traffic or ATC says there's traffic.

Speak for yourself, mate. I most certainly do see and avoid. At higher speeds, particularly above 10,000, this becomes more difficult due to higher closure rates, but I'm all lights-on and eyes-out once below FL180. I treat the matter like my life depends upon it. Because it does.

Think about your peanut gyro and the minimal time you have on the standby power source. A half hour, right? For the weight in a sailplane, installing a transponder (never mind the cost), there's still very little time out of a battery for that transponder. Some use them, some use solar trickle chargers, but between the weight penalty and the balance issues...it's not practical (to say nothing of the cost).

Perhaps you're one who believes that aircraft without radios are dangerous...but the law has always been, and is now, SEE and avoid, not listen and avoid. Not let the fish finder see and avoid, but you, the certificated pilot, see and avoid. Get your head out of the cockpit and see, and avoid.

Sad part is the Hawker pilot will prly get violated for not 'giving way'.

That is never going to happen.

 

[n32jk]

Let me start by stating that I am not a glider pilot but would very much like to get the cert. (something seems truly pure about gliding and I'd like to try it.) Anyway, I digress...

Talking about the midair with the glider and the jet (I saw the pic of the jet. looks bad)...Why don't you glider pilots put a dang transponder in your aircraft? I know it would cost a few fpm in you thermalling but there has got to be a light and effective way to put a hand held unit in a glider. Maybe if you were as interested in safety devices (I'm talking specifically about the transponder) as you are about an extra 5 foot glide ratio, manufactures would make a very light transponder for gliders.

As a jet pilot I assure you that we do not "see and avoid". Sure down low in the pattern our eyes are outside but above a few thousand feet we mostly look out when the tcas yells traffic or ATC says there's traffic. A glider without a transponder would miss both of those systems.

I see two safe scenarios;

1. gliders get transponders. or...

2. gliders stay is airspace boxes so other planes don't hit 'em.

I swear to God I respect glider pilots. I don't want to restrict gliding. But there has GOT to be a way to put a transponder in a glider.
After all, we can put a Man on the Moon right? A computer chip in a dog, and a cell phone in the purse of a house wife on a farm in Iowa. Lets put a xponder in gliders.

Fly safe.

Let me clarify that I am both a jet pilot and a glider pilot. I DO NOT think restricting giders to Boxes is a good alternative for airspace below 18K. Transponders are not an alternative for all operations as stated eloquently above. Power requiremenst are too great, especially since as of now the regulations state if you got it, it has to be on. That is why maybe something like above 12K must have. If installed only need be on when required by above mentioned ,,,, etc.

Gliders fly cross country, much of it at lower altitudes. What you suggest would make flying a sailplane more restrictive than a skyhawk. I can gaurantee that glider pilots look outside more than your average cessna pilot.

Some areas beg for more oversight than others. Restrict gliders more than ultralights or cessna's is not the answer.

Joe

 

[glasspilot]

Speak for yourself, mate. I most certainly do see and avoid.

Get your head out of the cockpit and see, and avoid.

Hey Avbug;

1st: I'm not your "mate".

2nd: I'm telling you what is. I know everyone would like to believe professional pilots are constantly looking outside. But believe me that is NOT the case. In all my years of flying I've never met a pilot that as spent a great deal of time looking out the window unless the TCAS is going off or ATC says there's traffic. I've been an FO and a CA. I've commuted for over 7 years. In all of that time none of my "pilots in the other seat" or even the "major airline pilots" of the airplane I was jumpseating on have done it either. Below a few thousand feed...yes, we look outside a great deal more. Above a few thousand feet...it's pretty much instrumentation. Right or wrong it's a fact. I've been in flight in the jumpseat at night and seen the CA turn on the dome light so he could read the newspaper and eat his diner. I don't mean to drone on but it is just a fact of life; it is the extremely rare jet pilot that looks outside on his own for traffic when flying. TCAS has done a wonderful job of preventing midairs but it has also made pilots more reliant on electronic equipment to avoid those same midair collisions

I really do respect glider pilots and that is sort of the reason I even made it to this thread, but I'm also telling you the truth from an airline/cargo/corporate point of view. Airplanes without transponders operating where other airline/cargo/corporate aircraft operate is a recipe for problems.

I can't think of a reason a transponder couldn't be installed in any airplane. With today's electronics capabilities they could make a hand held or a very cheap panel mount that would fix the problem. I truly think America has enough airspace for everyone to get what they want out of aviation.

Fly safe.

 

[avbug]

I'm telling you what is.

No, mate, you're not.

The law is see and avoid. I strive very hard to respect that law. That you do not may be your reality, but it's your shortfall; it's your failing.

Admitting it is the first step. Now pull your head out of the cockpit and LOOK!!

 

[glasspilot]

No, mate, you're not.

The law is see and avoid. I strive very hard to respect that law. That you do not may be your reality, but it's your shortfall; it's your failing.

Admitting it is the first step. Now pull your head out of the cockpit and LOOK!!

Well, you've flown "all" of the aircraft and have "all" of the ratings and with over 5,000 post on this board I guess you know what happens. My apologizes, you're right.

 

[Gorilla]

Sorry, I refuse to buy the concept that a glider transponder weighs too much or draws too much power. Any glider tooling around above 10,000' is very likely a pretty advanced ship with water ballast and all kinds of goodies to make it competitive.

Get yourself a modern Lithium-Poly battery and a transponder; it'll work fine for any concievable duration and cost you perhaps 5 to 8 pounds. Big deal. The problem isn't technical, it's being cheap and simply not wanting to hassle with it.

 

[USMCmech]

The club where I fly gliders near SAT has transponders installed in some aircraft, and comm radios in them all which we use to monitor approach. I frequently call aproach and let them know where I am at and that I will be monitoring their freq.

It is esspecially important because the airport we fly out of is right under the approach corridor for 12R at SAT.

RE: "see and avoid", it's wishfull thinking in the world of jet aircraft. I have a hard enough time spoting aircraft when ATC tells me where they are at, much less random small objects like a glider aproaching at over 200kts closure.

Do I keep scanning for traffic, you bet. But I am also aware of the limitations of the human eyes and brain.