Do you fly left and right seat at NetJets

[tgr620]

I wanted to know if anyone at NetJets can tell me if you fly both seats every other leg? I appreciate your kind response.

 

[Gpilot800]

It's not necessarily every other leg, that you will swap seats. Typically, the SIC will fly the dead legs in the left seat as long as the have enough time in type. I think that number is 50 hrs...but dont quote me there, it changed a year or so ago. (I can't remember, doesn't affect me, and too lazy to get up right now for the FOM)

Anyway, if the PIC is uncomfortable with allowing the SIC in the left seat, the SIC can fly live or dead legs from the right seat. good thing is those scaredy-cat PICs are very rare. The only real no-no is SIC in the left seat with pax.

Hope this helps.

 

[Diesel]

i don't swap seats it s a pain in the ass to move stuff back and forth.

I swap legs. When i'm an FO i stay in the right seat the whole tour just swap legs.

It's captain perogative.

 

[Gpilot800]

tgr -
Diesel has a good point. For some of the aircraft that have a tiller for instance, most of us would prefer not to fly from the right seat. at all..but it's all up to the PIC. If you do fly from the right in an aircraft with a tiller, there is typically a "hand-off" at 80 kts (approx) from the left seat driving with tiller, to the guy in the right taking over at 80 (for rudder effectiveness).

Some like it some don't...
I used to be in the CE650, and didn't like the hand-off, but it's a bit easier in the 800XP.

 

[Just Peachy]

seat swap

If I fly with another captain, I fly ALL the legs on day one from the left seat. Next He flys all the legs from the left seat. We swap like that for the rest of the tour. Saves swapping $hit back and forth and every one gets the duty.

If flying with an FO, I ask him if he wants the left seat on dead heads ( some of them do because they are now thinking upgrade) and the company fordids FOs to fly left seat with pax. Or, just swap every other leg with the actual duty staying in each others respective seat.

 

[widespreadpanic]

Saves swapping $hit back and forth and every one gets the duty.

Do you NJA peeps have a flight kit with charts to carry?

WP

 

[Diesel]

no chart kits. just onboard jepps for north and south america.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Also, a large number of guys just swap legs regardless if it is a pax leg or not. As long as the F/O has 250 hours in type with the Company ( I need to verify that) he can fly pax legs.

The days of PIC only flying the pax legs is mostly over. That was the old thinking of a Mom and Pop business. This place is more like an airline and is slowly coming along.

F/O can only fly pax legs from the right seat.
but
They can fly the empty legs from the left seat.

If they are coming up on an upgrade in the near future I'd almost insist they get as much time in the left seat as possible.

 

[brokeflyer]

I happen to be looking at the FOM cause my edition of VALUPAK cupoms didnt come yet.....


you can seat swap at 50 hours provided the PIC has 50 hours. SIC can fly pax legs from the right if he/she has 75 hours in type.

 

[Stickshaker]

i don't swap seats it s a pain in the ass to move stuff back and forth.

Diesel,

Your right, it's so hard to switch your headset over and maybe your sun glass case with a bottle water.
Takes a lot of work. You may need to call in fatigue after you do it.

 

[Fozzy]

I am with Diesel,

If I am the junior and paired with a Captain, I take the right seat and want nothing to do with the left.
If I am the senior Captain or with an FO, I take the left and still don't swap.

Seriously, I don't see the point of swapping.

 

[brokeflyer]

as an FO it don't matter to me either. It's less work cause you don't have to move the anti-ice switches...lol

Plus you don't have the emer gear handle wedged into your right knee

 

[Club ORD FO]

Hey folks...I'm a former indy guyg looking at the fractionals. I have spoken to a few pilots at NJ and Flex that say they log PIC time as an FO. I'm just wondering how other airlines look at that? You are not really the captain, so why are you logging PIC time? If the shiznit hits the fan, it's still the captain's fault, not yours, so regardless of what seat you are in you are the SIC. If you log it as PIC, does that mean the captain logs it as SIC? You can't both log PIC afterall....

A friend of mine interviewed at JetBlue, and amogst all the chit chat the recruiter talked about fractional guys who "doctor" their logbook. I guess I am wondering if anybody has head the same thing... that airlines wont consider it 'true" PIC time.

Thoughts?

 

[VmaxFlyR]

That would depend-

Hey folks...I'm a former indy guyg looking at the fractionals. I have spoken to a few pilots at NJ and Flex that say they log PIC time as an FO. I'm just wondering how other airlines look at that? You are not really the captain, so why are you logging PIC time? If the shiznit hits the fan, it's still the captain's fault, not yours, so regardless of what seat you are in you are the SIC. If you log it as PIC, does that mean the captain logs it as SIC? You can't both log PIC afterall....

A friend of mine interviewed at JetBlue, and amogst all the chit chat the recruiter talked about fractional guys who "doctor" their logbook. I guess I am wondering if anybody has head the same thing... that airlines wont consider it 'true" PIC time.

Thoughts?

Some carriers define "PIC" differently so it would depend on each carrier.

JB must not recognize F/O left-seat PIC.

 

[brokeflyer]

first of all I can't imagine a NetJet pilot going to work at an airline now. Airline jobs are about as bad as flight instructing.

Per the regs.....if it's a part 91 flight(not 91k,135) the FO has a type rating and can log time as PIC if he is flying the plane. Only time he can't log it is if it's night and he is not current, or if he/she is not current on IFR.


other than that, sounds like the airline people need spend more time trying to stay in business and a little less time what pilots are doing.

 

[Gpilot800]

You can legally log the time that you are the PIC at the controls. Many of us do that, just also note in your logs the times you were actually the PIC who signed off for the airplane. Many airlines will ask for only that PIC time.

If you're typed, current and the pilot flying...you can log it as PIC.

 

[VmaxFlyR]

brokeflyer,

Thinking like that is gonna do you nothin but get you offered an airline management-type job!

Naawww--on second thought, the airline BODs and controlling lending institutions are not smart enough themselves to hire anyone to run an airline with any common sense these days!

"Let's worry about how we can pad our pockets as this ship goes down, rather than how we can plug the holes and get her floating upright again!"

 

[brokeflyer]

get me an airline-management job? How dare you insult me like that....lol

 

[Archie Bunker]

first of all I can't imagine a NetJet pilot going to work at an airline now. Airline jobs are about as bad as flight instructing.

You are wise beyond your years.

Flying at the majors (at least I can speak from my experience at Delta) isn't anything near as glamourous as you watched on the movie Catch Me If You Can, with Leonardo Di Caprio waltzing down the terminal corridor with beautiful Flight Attendants in tow. It's more like: park at Gate D-35 at ATL, and haul ass to Gate A-1 with a 45 minute turnaround, no time to stop and get greasy Chinese food at The Manchu Wok, and then fly to Toledo for a 9 hour layover......slam, click.

Pay, benefits, job security, and anything remotely related to quality of life issues have all gone down the toilet.

I wish life at the majors was still like "the movie," because I would never leave. Unfortunately, reality paints a much different picture.

 

[Safetycheck]

So then

I am with Diesel,

If I am the junior and paired with a Captain, I take the right seat and want nothing to do with the left.
If I am the senior Captain or with an FO, I take the left and still don't swap.

Seriously, I don't see the point of swapping.

So then you don't put the GRRRRR in swinger baby yeaaaaa!!!

 

[tgr620]

This is to: Gpilot800, Diesel, Just Peachy and Fozzy. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your responses regarding my question of flying left and right seats at NetJets. I have been on a trip the past 4days and have not been able to respond. I will be in touch guys, have safe flights.

tgr620

 

[FL410Femme]

I don't understand the seat swap thing either. Get to an airline and you will ride in the right seat until you upgrade. Period.

Both pilots leave and arrive at the runway at the same time. Other than an ego trip, what does it really matter? Once you are ready to upgrade, you will have plenty of time to learn the new flows, push the 5 extra buttons and flip the 4 extra switches.

As for logging of time, I can tell you that most airlines use FAR part 1 for PIC. If you don't sign for the airplane (if your name is not on the itinerary as the Captain), it doesn't matter who is manipulating the controls, the person signing for the aircraft logs ALL LEGS as PIC. Make another ego mistake here at an airline interview logbook check, and you can kiss a position goodby.

Just my input for those who wish to read it.

Thank you.

 

[Hawkered]

I agree!

You can't have two captains. Only one should be logging it as PIC!

 

[NJA Capt]

I don't understand the seat swap thing either. Get to an airline....

As many folk like to remind us, we aren't. (Even though for all practical purposes, we are)

Other than an ego trip, what does it really matter?

To play devil's advocate, it sounds like a Capt's ego trip. Like they are too good to sit in the right seat anymore or the other guy isn't good enough to sit in his coveted seat.

And: If it doesn't matter, what's the big deal with swapping??

Unlike the airlines, NJA does all pilot training (both sim and aircraft) from the left seat position. Also unlike the airlines, BOTH PIC and SICs are typed in the aircraft.

NJA looks at two pilots as a corporate flight department. Both pilots being equal, regardless of the number of stripes. One just happens to sign for the airplane.

For the record, I don't know anyone here who logs PIC unless they "sign" for the airplane. If I am the junior Capt on board I log it as SIC.

 

[transpac]

I agree!

You can't have two captains. Only one should be logging it as PIC!

Please, let's not have this argument again! Bottom line is get the FAR changed if one is against "sole manipulator" PIC time being logged. Personally, I don't log anything other than the minimums to show currency. However, I'm hard pressed to see why PIC time logged by the FAR 1 PIC while sleeping in a bunk is more valuable than "sole manipulator" PIC time logged by a rated SIC who's actually driving the airplane.

 

[Hawkered]

Okay, another IRO who thinks he's "King of the World!"
So you think as someone who has to keep current on how to land an aircraft in the simulator has the right to PIC time when their only authority is delegated?

That's why airlines in Asia can get kids with 350 hours on the flight deck as relief officers.

Dude, if you're not captain, don't log it as such, it'll bite you later if you do.

 

[FL410Femme]

NJA,

Thank you for your respective. You have good points. The bottom line is that someone MUST be in charge. You can play nice all day, swap seats, headsets, wet-nap the controls, adjust the pedals, but someone has to be in charge in the unlikely event of an emergency. This person is known as the PIC. For the responsibility of assuming this position, the PIC is awarded the Pilot In Command flight time and is assumed to sit in the left seat of the aircraft. Please note that ALL aircraft manufacturers assume that the PIC is sitting in the left seat when designs are created. Familiar with the Tiller?

I think that it is novel that NJA lets FO's fly the left seat for experience. I also feel that with that could come a false sense of industry standards and quite possilby an increased chance for CRM issues as it seems the opportunity to fly left seat by an FO is objective.

Thank you.

 

[NJA Capt]

The bottom line is that someone MUST be in charge...in the unlikely event of an emergency.

I agree 100%. But the "true PIC" is never in question. The PIC is still the PIC regardless of where he is seated.

Please note that ALL aircraft manufacturers assume that the PIC is sitting in the left seat when designs are created. Familiar with the Tiller?

Agreed. However, our checklists (and manufacturers) assume that the pilot flying is in the left position, not necessarily the PIC. It is actually better for CRM. The FP is always in the left and the NFP is always in the right. Nothing is ambiguous.

As far as the tiller, isn't it better (CRM) that the pilot doing the flying has the tiller available when he lands instead of transferring the controls? ( I understand that it is unavoidable on some models).

I think that it is novel that NJA lets FO's fly the left seat for experience.

Another thing to consider is that many times it is two Captains flying together so experience isn't an issue then. Many of my "FOs" are retired airline Capts. As long as they aren't still on low time status and they are comfortable doing so, I have no issues with swapping.

The senior Capt is always the "true" PIC. Personally, I am comfortable flying from either seat. It's actually nice to let someone else do the "tilling" once in a while. It kinda breaks up your day.

 

[transpac]

Okay, another IRO who thinks he's "King of the World!"
So you think as someone who has to keep current on how to land an aircraft in the simulator has the right to PIC time when their only authority is delegated?

That's why airlines in Asia can get kids with 350 hours on the flight deck as relief officers.

Dude, if you're not captain, don't log it as such, it'll bite you later if you do.

I'm assuming that was aimed at me, although I'm not an IRO. As far as logging legal PIC time biting me later, I already mentioned that I don't log any time except to meet FAA currency requirements for my little airplane flying, plus I'm normally the PIC anyway. However, if I was in a situation to log sole manipulator PIC time, I wouldn't worry too much about it biting me later. The time IS legal time to the FAA, the NTSB, and the insurance companies. I suppose the people who question it (some airlines and some pilots) are primarily interested in measuring command experience instead of actual pilot experience. Makes no difference to me as I've got plenty of each. But, it does get a little silly. I like the way the Navy used to do it: Aircraft Commander time (Command time) for the real PIC, First Pilot time for the flying pilot and Second Pilot time for the non-flying pilot.

 

[Hawkered]

I know of a certain individual that had training issues at a major airline and a review of said persons logbook was made. One aircraft registered in the logbook was parked in the desert two years after the same pilot was born!

Airlines are taking a very dismal look at more than one crew member logging PIC time in the same aircraft at the same time.

You're not in the navy now, and these pilot factories and pay for training freight operators that charge for "PIC" time in the right seat of a Navajo, should really be called to task for this.

You had something in the Navy called a "washout rate", we don't have that in civvy street, they just throw more money at the problem until the guy/gal finally passes. True PIC is the only to measure a pilot's past performance.

Much like a mutual fund is doesn't guarantee the same future return, but its a better gamble than the crap we're seeing in logbooks now!