Do you fly left and right seat at NetJets

[tgr620]

This is to: Gpilot800, Diesel, Just Peachy and Fozzy. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your responses regarding my question of flying left and right seats at NetJets. I have been on a trip the past 4days and have not been able to respond. I will be in touch guys, have safe flights.

tgr620

 

[FL410Femme]

I don't understand the seat swap thing either. Get to an airline and you will ride in the right seat until you upgrade. Period.

Both pilots leave and arrive at the runway at the same time. Other than an ego trip, what does it really matter? Once you are ready to upgrade, you will have plenty of time to learn the new flows, push the 5 extra buttons and flip the 4 extra switches.

As for logging of time, I can tell you that most airlines use FAR part 1 for PIC. If you don't sign for the airplane (if your name is not on the itinerary as the Captain), it doesn't matter who is manipulating the controls, the person signing for the aircraft logs ALL LEGS as PIC. Make another ego mistake here at an airline interview logbook check, and you can kiss a position goodby.

Just my input for those who wish to read it.

Thank you.

 

[Hawkered]

I agree!

You can't have two captains. Only one should be logging it as PIC!

 

[NJA Capt]

I don't understand the seat swap thing either. Get to an airline....

As many folk like to remind us, we aren't. (Even though for all practical purposes, we are)

Other than an ego trip, what does it really matter?

To play devil's advocate, it sounds like a Capt's ego trip. Like they are too good to sit in the right seat anymore or the other guy isn't good enough to sit in his coveted seat.

And: If it doesn't matter, what's the big deal with swapping??

Unlike the airlines, NJA does all pilot training (both sim and aircraft) from the left seat position. Also unlike the airlines, BOTH PIC and SICs are typed in the aircraft.

NJA looks at two pilots as a corporate flight department. Both pilots being equal, regardless of the number of stripes. One just happens to sign for the airplane.

For the record, I don't know anyone here who logs PIC unless they "sign" for the airplane. If I am the junior Capt on board I log it as SIC.

 

[transpac]

I agree!

You can't have two captains. Only one should be logging it as PIC!

Please, let's not have this argument again! Bottom line is get the FAR changed if one is against "sole manipulator" PIC time being logged. Personally, I don't log anything other than the minimums to show currency. However, I'm hard pressed to see why PIC time logged by the FAR 1 PIC while sleeping in a bunk is more valuable than "sole manipulator" PIC time logged by a rated SIC who's actually driving the airplane.

 

[Hawkered]

Okay, another IRO who thinks he's "King of the World!"
So you think as someone who has to keep current on how to land an aircraft in the simulator has the right to PIC time when their only authority is delegated?

That's why airlines in Asia can get kids with 350 hours on the flight deck as relief officers.

Dude, if you're not captain, don't log it as such, it'll bite you later if you do.

 

[FL410Femme]

NJA,

Thank you for your respective. You have good points. The bottom line is that someone MUST be in charge. You can play nice all day, swap seats, headsets, wet-nap the controls, adjust the pedals, but someone has to be in charge in the unlikely event of an emergency. This person is known as the PIC. For the responsibility of assuming this position, the PIC is awarded the Pilot In Command flight time and is assumed to sit in the left seat of the aircraft. Please note that ALL aircraft manufacturers assume that the PIC is sitting in the left seat when designs are created. Familiar with the Tiller?

I think that it is novel that NJA lets FO's fly the left seat for experience. I also feel that with that could come a false sense of industry standards and quite possilby an increased chance for CRM issues as it seems the opportunity to fly left seat by an FO is objective.

Thank you.

 

[NJA Capt]

The bottom line is that someone MUST be in charge...in the unlikely event of an emergency.

I agree 100%. But the "true PIC" is never in question. The PIC is still the PIC regardless of where he is seated.

Please note that ALL aircraft manufacturers assume that the PIC is sitting in the left seat when designs are created. Familiar with the Tiller?

Agreed. However, our checklists (and manufacturers) assume that the pilot flying is in the left position, not necessarily the PIC. It is actually better for CRM. The FP is always in the left and the NFP is always in the right. Nothing is ambiguous.

As far as the tiller, isn't it better (CRM) that the pilot doing the flying has the tiller available when he lands instead of transferring the controls? ( I understand that it is unavoidable on some models).

I think that it is novel that NJA lets FO's fly the left seat for experience.

Another thing to consider is that many times it is two Captains flying together so experience isn't an issue then. Many of my "FOs" are retired airline Capts. As long as they aren't still on low time status and they are comfortable doing so, I have no issues with swapping.

The senior Capt is always the "true" PIC. Personally, I am comfortable flying from either seat. It's actually nice to let someone else do the "tilling" once in a while. It kinda breaks up your day.

 

[transpac]

Okay, another IRO who thinks he's "King of the World!"
So you think as someone who has to keep current on how to land an aircraft in the simulator has the right to PIC time when their only authority is delegated?

That's why airlines in Asia can get kids with 350 hours on the flight deck as relief officers.

Dude, if you're not captain, don't log it as such, it'll bite you later if you do.

I'm assuming that was aimed at me, although I'm not an IRO. As far as logging legal PIC time biting me later, I already mentioned that I don't log any time except to meet FAA currency requirements for my little airplane flying, plus I'm normally the PIC anyway. However, if I was in a situation to log sole manipulator PIC time, I wouldn't worry too much about it biting me later. The time IS legal time to the FAA, the NTSB, and the insurance companies. I suppose the people who question it (some airlines and some pilots) are primarily interested in measuring command experience instead of actual pilot experience. Makes no difference to me as I've got plenty of each. But, it does get a little silly. I like the way the Navy used to do it: Aircraft Commander time (Command time) for the real PIC, First Pilot time for the flying pilot and Second Pilot time for the non-flying pilot.

 

[Hawkered]

I know of a certain individual that had training issues at a major airline and a review of said persons logbook was made. One aircraft registered in the logbook was parked in the desert two years after the same pilot was born!

Airlines are taking a very dismal look at more than one crew member logging PIC time in the same aircraft at the same time.

You're not in the navy now, and these pilot factories and pay for training freight operators that charge for "PIC" time in the right seat of a Navajo, should really be called to task for this.

You had something in the Navy called a "washout rate", we don't have that in civvy street, they just throw more money at the problem until the guy/gal finally passes. True PIC is the only to measure a pilot's past performance.

Much like a mutual fund is doesn't guarantee the same future return, but its a better gamble than the crap we're seeing in logbooks now!

 

[Safetycheck]

What?

I know of a certain individual that had training issues at a major airline and a review of said persons logbook was made. One aircraft registered in the logbook was parked in the desert two years after the same pilot was born!

Much like a mutual fund is doesn't guarantee the same future return, but its a better gamble than the crap we're seeing in logbooks now!

What are you sniffin boy?

Did they teach you advanced logical thinking in Kindeygarten last year or this year in first grade?

 

[Hawkered]

I've been flying for over 22 years and worked at a major airline. How exactly young do you think I am there Methusula?

 

[Safetycheck]

Yes, and.....

I've been flying for over 22 years and worked at a major airline. How exactly young do you think I am there Methusula?

So you took your first flight in vitro and you worked for Mesa.... is that all you got there JUNIOR?

 

[Hawkered]

Huh?!

A little advice for you there "Safety",(an oxymoron?).

Don't Drink and type!

 

[Safetycheck]

Let me get this straight

Huh?!

A little advice for you there "Safety",(an oxymoron?).

Don't Drink and type!

I know, for you straight is an oxymoron, but anyway. What are you saying there Hawkered? Insinuating that there is something wrong with Safety?

Oh no, you dont have to worry about safety. You have your people doing that for you.

Please clarify. Come on. I'm enjoying this, arguing with the handicapped uneducated and otherwise impaired.

 

[Hawkered]

I can assure you that your inadequacies have been very well recorded here!

You are poorly organised and without substance in any of your arguments.

With such a poor level of wit and such a need to overcompensate I would venture to guess that you are a scab that had to suck wind as you went from one failed carrier to another.

 

[VVJM265]

The current definitions in the FARs really do seem to confuse the situation. Transpac made a reference to the USN way which effectively equates to:

Aircraft Commander = FAR part 1; you sign for plane, you log the “A” time even if you’re in the rack ‘cause its your a$$ in the sling if something happens.

1st Pilot = FAR 61.51 “sole manipulator”
2nd Pilot = FAR 61.51 “SIC”

People get into discussions about logging 61.51 PIC without a current NATOPS check, but the salient point is that A time = part 1 time. I think that if the FARs changed part 1 to read something similar to Aircraft Commander, Captain or just something other than the “PIC” term used in 61.51, then much of the confusion would be alleviated.

As far as who logs the A time with two qual’d Aircraft Commanders: I’ve been in commands where the senior guy, by rank, normally signs for the plane and other commands where the Ops would schedule to balance the A time across the pilots. In all cases, the bottom line was whoever Ops put as the Aircraft Commander on the schedule that the CO then signed was who signed for the plane. The key point being that the CO approved who was in command for each flight.

In every plane I’ve flown in the Navy, we swap seats. At the training command we train the kids starting in the left seat for the C-12 & T-44. Even in the tactical trainers, you are trained primarily in the front seat, but you’ll still spend some time in the trunk under the bag on instrument hops (dating myself here, at least we used to, not sure what we’re doing in the T-45 now, may be mostly simulator time now).

In the T-39 & C-26, once you got the initial check, you were legal to land with pax. Granted we had the luxury of having the 5 sims at Flight Safety and then an in house syllabus of another 10-20 hours w/ 30-50 T&Gs in the plane before the check-ride, almost all in the left seat. Later the aircraft commander syllabus was another 10-20 hours, but with landings in the right seat and learning how to recognize “new copilot mistakes,” etc. The IP syllabus is all from the right seat. (P-3 is similar but with some tighter restrictions on landing with pax (not crew) because they don’t get a check-ride right away.)

When I was flying those airplanes (39&26), and with a new copilot, I’d usually give them the extra leg if we had an odd number of legs, regardless of the pax situation. Obviously if the were extenuating circumstances (going into Northolt, the wx is crap and he hasn’t been in there yet) then I’d take the leg from the left seat. As the copilots got more experienced, I would start making them take landings on empty legs from the right seat in preparation for the aircraft commander syllabus. It all seems a little bass-ackwards from the way the commercial side does things.

Anyway, just a different perspective and my 5 cents this morning. Fly safe everyone.
VVJM265

 

[cessnapilot]

here is the deal on PIC time

I found this article with a google search...

http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/loggingpic.html

http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/loggingpic.html


Regards

 

[Ultra Grump]

You can log it strictly per the FAR definitions, but you'd better be ready to explain yourself in an interview.

 

[cessnapilot]

seems clear

FAR Part 61:51 deals with pilot logbooks and cites the instances in which pilots can log pilot-in-command flight time. These are:

1. only that flight time during which [the] pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, OR
2. when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, OR
3. when acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required (by type certification or flight regulations).

Additionally, airline transport pilots and certificated instructor pilots may log as pilot-in-command time that flight time during which they act as a pilot-in-command or instructor, respectively.

Note the FAA's intent in defining pilot-in-command time, and in requiring pilots to record PIC in their logbooks, is to allow pilots to document aeronautical training and experience used to obtain specific certificates or ratings. For instance, airmen need 100 hours of pilot-in-command time to obtain a Commercial certificate, and 250 hours PIC for the Airline Transport Pilot certificate. Such flight time must be logged and presented as evidence in qualifying for these certificates. The FAA never set our to establish or document airline hiring criteria.