Do you fly left and right seat at NetJets

[tgr620]

This is to: Gpilot800, Diesel, Just Peachy and Fozzy. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your responses regarding my question of flying left and right seats at NetJets. I have been on a trip the past 4days and have not been able to respond. I will be in touch guys, have safe flights.

tgr620

 

[FL410Femme]

I don't understand the seat swap thing either. Get to an airline and you will ride in the right seat until you upgrade. Period.

Both pilots leave and arrive at the runway at the same time. Other than an ego trip, what does it really matter? Once you are ready to upgrade, you will have plenty of time to learn the new flows, push the 5 extra buttons and flip the 4 extra switches.

As for logging of time, I can tell you that most airlines use FAR part 1 for PIC. If you don't sign for the airplane (if your name is not on the itinerary as the Captain), it doesn't matter who is manipulating the controls, the person signing for the aircraft logs ALL LEGS as PIC. Make another ego mistake here at an airline interview logbook check, and you can kiss a position goodby.

Just my input for those who wish to read it.

Thank you.

 

[Hawkered]

I agree!

You can't have two captains. Only one should be logging it as PIC!

 

[NJA Capt]

I don't understand the seat swap thing either. Get to an airline....

As many folk like to remind us, we aren't. (Even though for all practical purposes, we are)

Other than an ego trip, what does it really matter?

To play devil's advocate, it sounds like a Capt's ego trip. Like they are too good to sit in the right seat anymore or the other guy isn't good enough to sit in his coveted seat.

And: If it doesn't matter, what's the big deal with swapping??

Unlike the airlines, NJA does all pilot training (both sim and aircraft) from the left seat position. Also unlike the airlines, BOTH PIC and SICs are typed in the aircraft.

NJA looks at two pilots as a corporate flight department. Both pilots being equal, regardless of the number of stripes. One just happens to sign for the airplane.

For the record, I don't know anyone here who logs PIC unless they "sign" for the airplane. If I am the junior Capt on board I log it as SIC.

 

[transpac]

I agree!

You can't have two captains. Only one should be logging it as PIC!

Please, let's not have this argument again! Bottom line is get the FAR changed if one is against "sole manipulator" PIC time being logged. Personally, I don't log anything other than the minimums to show currency. However, I'm hard pressed to see why PIC time logged by the FAR 1 PIC while sleeping in a bunk is more valuable than "sole manipulator" PIC time logged by a rated SIC who's actually driving the airplane.

 

[Hawkered]

Okay, another IRO who thinks he's "King of the World!"
So you think as someone who has to keep current on how to land an aircraft in the simulator has the right to PIC time when their only authority is delegated?

That's why airlines in Asia can get kids with 350 hours on the flight deck as relief officers.

Dude, if you're not captain, don't log it as such, it'll bite you later if you do.

 

[FL410Femme]

NJA,

Thank you for your respective. You have good points. The bottom line is that someone MUST be in charge. You can play nice all day, swap seats, headsets, wet-nap the controls, adjust the pedals, but someone has to be in charge in the unlikely event of an emergency. This person is known as the PIC. For the responsibility of assuming this position, the PIC is awarded the Pilot In Command flight time and is assumed to sit in the left seat of the aircraft. Please note that ALL aircraft manufacturers assume that the PIC is sitting in the left seat when designs are created. Familiar with the Tiller?

I think that it is novel that NJA lets FO's fly the left seat for experience. I also feel that with that could come a false sense of industry standards and quite possilby an increased chance for CRM issues as it seems the opportunity to fly left seat by an FO is objective.

Thank you.

 

[NJA Capt]

The bottom line is that someone MUST be in charge...in the unlikely event of an emergency.

I agree 100%. But the "true PIC" is never in question. The PIC is still the PIC regardless of where he is seated.

Please note that ALL aircraft manufacturers assume that the PIC is sitting in the left seat when designs are created. Familiar with the Tiller?

Agreed. However, our checklists (and manufacturers) assume that the pilot flying is in the left position, not necessarily the PIC. It is actually better for CRM. The FP is always in the left and the NFP is always in the right. Nothing is ambiguous.

As far as the tiller, isn't it better (CRM) that the pilot doing the flying has the tiller available when he lands instead of transferring the controls? ( I understand that it is unavoidable on some models).

I think that it is novel that NJA lets FO's fly the left seat for experience.

Another thing to consider is that many times it is two Captains flying together so experience isn't an issue then. Many of my "FOs" are retired airline Capts. As long as they aren't still on low time status and they are comfortable doing so, I have no issues with swapping.

The senior Capt is always the "true" PIC. Personally, I am comfortable flying from either seat. It's actually nice to let someone else do the "tilling" once in a while. It kinda breaks up your day.

 

[transpac]

Okay, another IRO who thinks he's "King of the World!"
So you think as someone who has to keep current on how to land an aircraft in the simulator has the right to PIC time when their only authority is delegated?

That's why airlines in Asia can get kids with 350 hours on the flight deck as relief officers.

Dude, if you're not captain, don't log it as such, it'll bite you later if you do.

I'm assuming that was aimed at me, although I'm not an IRO. As far as logging legal PIC time biting me later, I already mentioned that I don't log any time except to meet FAA currency requirements for my little airplane flying, plus I'm normally the PIC anyway. However, if I was in a situation to log sole manipulator PIC time, I wouldn't worry too much about it biting me later. The time IS legal time to the FAA, the NTSB, and the insurance companies. I suppose the people who question it (some airlines and some pilots) are primarily interested in measuring command experience instead of actual pilot experience. Makes no difference to me as I've got plenty of each. But, it does get a little silly. I like the way the Navy used to do it: Aircraft Commander time (Command time) for the real PIC, First Pilot time for the flying pilot and Second Pilot time for the non-flying pilot.

 

[Hawkered]

I know of a certain individual that had training issues at a major airline and a review of said persons logbook was made. One aircraft registered in the logbook was parked in the desert two years after the same pilot was born!

Airlines are taking a very dismal look at more than one crew member logging PIC time in the same aircraft at the same time.

You're not in the navy now, and these pilot factories and pay for training freight operators that charge for "PIC" time in the right seat of a Navajo, should really be called to task for this.

You had something in the Navy called a "washout rate", we don't have that in civvy street, they just throw more money at the problem until the guy/gal finally passes. True PIC is the only to measure a pilot's past performance.

Much like a mutual fund is doesn't guarantee the same future return, but its a better gamble than the crap we're seeing in logbooks now!