DL 757/767 Qs

[FBN0223]

Hey Delta Pilots
Many of us at NWA who fly the B757 are wondering how many categories/positions you guys currently bid and any additional details to B757/767 flying would be welcome. Every NWA B757 pilot is qualified on the B757-200 and -300 and all are also qualified to fly Europe, Hawaii, domestic(obviously) and Asia.

Let's start with:

At Delta:

1) As a B757/767 pilot, is everyone qualified to fly every B757/B767 in the fleet?

2) What are the categories of qualification on the B757/B767, if any?

3) Are there any specific route qualifications? EX: A special airport qual. for South American airports or a North Atlantic Check? Pacific?

4) Which base/bases fly the most international B757/B767 flights? Which base/bases fly the least international flights?

5) What type of flying and which bases on the B757/767 seems to be most junior and most senior?

Thanks Delta guys for any input. I do believe many changes are coming especially for those Delta pilots on the west coast and NWA pilot out east. Looking forward to it all.

thanks FBN

 

[General Lee]

Hey Delta Pilots
Many of us at NWA who fly the B757 are wondering how many categories/positions you guys currently bid and any additional details to B757/767 flying would be welcome. Every NWA B757 pilot is qualified on the B757-200 and -300 and all are also qualified to fly Europe, Hawaii, domestic(obviously) and Asia.

Let's start with:

At Delta:

1) As a B757/767 pilot, is everyone qualified to fly every B757/B767 in the fleet?

2) What are the categories of qualification on the B757/B767, if any?

3) Are there any specific route qualifications? EX: A special airport qual. for South American airports or a North Atlantic Check? Pacific?

4) WHich bases flies the most international B757/B767 flights? Which base flies the least international flights?

Thanks Delta guys for any input. I do believe many changes are coming especially for those Delta pilots on the west coast and NWA pilot out east. Looking forward to it all.

thanks FBN

Everyone flying those fleets are qualified on both types, but we have domestic and INTL categories (called the ER for the INTL--even though you could fly the 757 instead of the 767ER on some flights). The domestic guys have not done the 3 day school to teach long range ops, etc. They did get typed on the plane though, and could do it if they bid it. It will be interesting to see how the new Delta will integrate that. I guess they could train the DL Domestic 757/767 pilots, but it would cost them some cash, and there are a lot of domestic only pilots. (the domestic guys still do Caribbean flights, Mexico, and some Latin America/ South America--like Caracas and Panama, but not Quito/Guayaquil) The INTL guys (ER) do Hawaii, Europe, Africa, and deep South America.

The only check out with a line check guy (after the 3 day sim course) is 4 legs across the North Atlantic. Nothing for deep South America. The bases with the most "ER" flying are JFK and ATL. LAX has a small "ER" base doing mostly Hawaii. CVG and SLC have a domestic 757/767 category, with no ER flying.

The 767-400 guys have a seperate category called the "765". Why 765? I don't know. They are paid $20 more an hour, and fly Europe, SA, Africa, and Hawaii from ATL. Interestingly enough, if you are in the 757/767 category, you can bid back and forth from the domestic, to the ER, to the -400, and only have a 9 month seat lock. If you want to try one and don't like it, you can bid back to DOM or to the ER or -400 after 9 months....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FBN0223]

So if if a one is flying the domestic B757 out of SLC but changes to the ER out of JFK, it is just a North Atlantic check and no trip to ATL for differences training or intl ground school?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

There are three sims in ATL for the ER.
One Long range Nave
One Track Sim
and Now one Mountain SIM in Quito on the RNAV approach in there.
Then it is off to TOE ( Trans Oceanic Experience) Buddies of mine have been waiting three months for there. It has been a nice paid holiday. It consists of for Ocean Crossing which can be done on a six day or two three days. FWIW, you do have to come to ATL. Then once every six months for a recurrent sim.

 

[General Lee]

So if if a one is flying the domestic B757 out of SLC but changes to the ER out of JFK, it is just a North Atlantic check and no trip to ATL for differences training or intl ground school?

ACL65 is correct. If you are on domestic, and then go to the "ER", you have to get the check out. IF you already have had the check out, then I don't think you have to do it again. If you NWA guys have already been flying the tracks, then you may not have to do the check out, unless the FAA wants everyone to see a Quito landing or something like that. (BTW, Quito goes to the 737-700 soon anyway) It will be interesting to see what the FAA makes us do to combine the certificates. Again BTW, if you ever go to the 767-400, you only fly that plane. CAL flies all of them including the 767-400, but we do not. And, when you do the 2 sims a year if you are on the "ER" or 765, one of them is a checkride, the other is a LOFT that really is non jeopardy, unless you are a total flop.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Actually it is three sims a year for recurrent. A one day at the six month point and then a two day for the annual check.

 

[qxdash8]

Just to break it down for the 757, 767, 400 bases:
JFK ER only
ATL ER, 400, and domestic
CVG domestic only
SLC domestic only
LAX ER and domestic (no 400)

The wait for TOE is being reduced a little but not much. It was just over a month from my WWO class to my first TOE trip. I then had a week and a half off between TOE trips. I start my last scheduled TOE on Monday.

The WWO class was three days: One classroom day, one day of fixed based sim, and one day of motion sim. Quito was part of the full motion day.

Also, I believe that the ER limit for SA will be moving further south with the new TA (actually it was in LA 19). The domestic category will be able to do Quito/Guayaquil if I'm not mistaken (of course, its going to the 73N anyway).

Hope that helps

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

So if if a one is flying the domestic B757 out of SLC but changes to the ER out of JFK, it is just a North Atlantic check and no trip to ATL for differences training or intl ground school?

Just a note, we interchange fully between the 767 and 757 even on the domestic side. You might fly a 767 one leg, a 767-300 another leg, and a 767-300ER another leg all on the same trip.

The domestic side gets to do alot of the neat caribbean and central american flying as well as alaska.



The most senior trips on the ATL767 (domestic) are typically day trips or high value 4 days without redeyes. Most of the real senior guys live around town and just drive into work 2-3 times a week or so for the day trips.


Junior stuff, you'll see alot more redeyes. I ended up with a line next month but was very impressed with the trips ive got. The first trip is a 4 day with no redeyes... Only fly 4 legs just criss crossing back and forth across the country...22+30 credit.

The other 2 werent as good, but still high value 4 days (I've got vacation which takes me up to 85 hours of credit).

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Actually it is three sims a year for recurrent. A one day at the six month point and then a two day for the annual check.

Aroo? Is this on the ER?

 

[aa73]

Just a note, we interchange fully between the 767 and 757 even on the domestic side. You might fly a 767 one leg, a 767-300 another leg, and a 767-300ER another leg all on the same trip.

Just curious, what are DL's differences between 767s? You mention 3 different types - 767, 767-300 and 767-300ER. Is the "straight" 767 a -200?

Just curious, because we at AA only have two types - 767-200ER and 767-300ER.

Also, you mentioned WWO... what is that?

Thanks,
73

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Whoops, "you might fly a 757 one leg, at 767-300 another leg, and a 767-300ER another leg..." is how that should have read, sorry!

 

[FDJ2]

Just curious, what are DL's differences between 767s? You mention 3 different types - 767, 767-300 and 767-300ER. Is the "straight" 767 a -200?

No 767-200s

21: 767-400ers
60: 767-300ers
20: 767-300s
136: 757-200s ( I believe 17 of which are ETOPS)

 

[qxdash8]

WWO = World Wide Ops. Thats Delta speak for long haul international flying. If you are qualified on the 757/767 domestic - you can't fly ER trips until completing the three day WWO training and completing TOE (Transocianic Operating Experiance)

Everyone in the 757/767 fleet is qualified to fly all of the 757/767 models except fot the 767-400. The difference is that only pilots in the ER category can fly ER trips.

 

[qxdash8]

By ER trips I mean trips that cross an ocean or go to SA south of the equator.

The ER equipment can be flown by domestic crews that don't go to the above regions

 

[~~~^~~~]

...and to confuse things more, they routinely take thousands of hours of domestic flying and put in the ER bid package. Once it is on the ER, CS can't cover the trip with a domestic crew without jumping through a bunch of contractual hoops.

Despite the temptation for NWA guys to analyze this and consider their "dream sheets," based on the DAL categories, it is likely that anything planned now will be completely wrong by the time they shift the fleet around. What I hear is that NWA's big airplanes are headed for Delta bases and from that I guess that Delta's 757's will backfill NWA flying, but that is just my guess.

Just like this poor bull, posted below, just when you think you are finally going to get you some, wham, and your butt hurts.

http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/Mattwilliamson1/?action=view&current=damnsnow.flv

 

[aa73]

gotcha, thanks.

funny the differences between airlines. AA's definition for international is anything other than the lower 48, canada or mexico. Thus, only an international pilot can fly MIA-CUN, or JFK-SXM. Even DFW-Anchorage is international. I guess at DL these would be considered domestic?

73

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

And at NWA if you are 757 pilot you can fly lower 48, Alaska, Latin America, Asia Interport, Europe or where ever else. Wish the new DAL would go this route. More flexibility for the pilots and the company. With computer bidding and a little seniority you could build an awesome schedule. One can wish....

gotcha, thanks.

funny the differences between airlines. AA's definition for international is anything other than the lower 48, canada or mexico. Thus, only an international pilot can fly MIA-CUN, or JFK-SXM. Even DFW-Anchorage is international. I guess at DL these would be considered domestic?

73

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

And at NWA if you are 757 pilot you can fly lower 48, Alaska, Latin America, Asia Interport, Europe or where ever else. Wish the new DAL would go this route. More flexibility for the pilots and the company. With computer bidding and a little seniority you could build an awesome schedule. One can wish....

They've been talking about this for years.... I suppose the thing is, when youve got around 2500-3000 757/767 pilots, it makes sense to split it up for cost.

I wouldn't mind it all being combined, personally. I use the HF radios, do equal time points, all the normal oceanic stuff except for true track plotting, but have never been trained on it. It's simple to find it in the manual, but still.


I do think you might see us fully qual'd like you guys.


aa73, you are correct. Delta "domestic" for the 767/757 is not crossing the equator and not doing an ocean crossing requiring a plotting chart.

 

[filejw]

Or they could skip the 3 day course and use the NWA one day school seeing as they soon will own it. When I first started flying inter-port they just handed us a user manual and said here you go boys.Anyway when it came time for HNL and Maui we just went, may have been a handout for that too. Its all $$..

 

[KCPilot]

No 767-200s

21: 767-400ers
60: 767-300ers
20: 767-300s
136: 757-200s ( I believe 17 of which are ETOPS)

They call those 17 757-200ER even though according to Boeing there is no such thing. Big diff on them are no SATCOM, 200K box, old TCAS, WX radar setup, transponder, extra jumpseat, oh and winglets!

 

[Muskycat]

Word has it that the 747-400 is heading for ATL.
I don't think you'll see delta pilots flying them for 2 reasons. One it'll take years to be able for anyone to cross over.
Two, RA said with oil at 105 bucks a barrel and above, the 74-400 will not make money no mater what you carry.
So.... I would say the 74's will be gone and replaced with 777LR's in a few years. But until then run them from ATL to Asia and try to cut the losses.
Just my guess.

 

[filejw]

747-400 will fly trips out of ATL but back flown thru NRT. DTW - NRT -ATL- then some place south.There will be some dh to ATL and JFK too. The 777 will be doing the same to cover trips out of MSP and DTW. Doubt you see the actual bases move anytime soon because of cost. Plan on ATL KIX soon too. As far as the 400 making money it depends on how much you charge, ask Korean or Cathay Pacific, they both make real money with the a/c.

 

[qxdash8]

Or they could skip the 3 day course and use the NWA one day school seeing as they soon will own it. When I first started flying inter-port they just handed us a user manual and said here you go boys.Anyway when it came time for HNL and Maui we just went, may have been a handout for that too. Its all $$..

Our WWO training was just a two day sim course until just recently when they added the classroom day. They found with so many new hires going straight into the ER (like myself) a little extra training would be helpful (and it was). Of course, that was probably driven by $$ as well. Must be cheaper to have the extra classroom day then to have all these guys needing extra TOE.

 

[JohnQ]

The only check out with a line check guy (after the 3 day sim course) is 4 legs across the North Atlantic. Nothing for deep South America.

Not entirely true. For starters, a new policy is that new captains may only get two transoceanic crossings, and the other two may be Africa or SA depending on his prior experience.

Also, for captains going into the following airports for the first time, they must be signed off either by an AQFO (special group of FOs who are qualified to check out first-time captains) or LCAs: BOG, UIO, GIG, SJO, GUA. That's just the ER category. There are others, such as MEX, EGE, etc. that are flown out of the domestic side but with the same rules.

 

[aa73]

Also, for captains going into the following airports for the first time, they must be signed off either by an AQFO (special group of FOs who are qualified to check out first-time captains) or LCAs: BOG, UIO, GIG, SJO, GUA.

Are you kidding me??? Delta allows F/Os to check out CAs???

Wow. How did that one slip by?

73

 

[General Lee]

Word has it that the 747-400 is heading for ATL.
I don't think you'll see delta pilots flying them for 2 reasons. One it'll take years to be able for anyone to cross over.
Two, RA said with oil at 105 bucks a barrel and above, the 74-400 will not make money no mater what you carry.
So.... I would say the 74's will be gone and replaced with 777LR's in a few years. But until then run them from ATL to Asia and try to cut the losses.
Just my guess.

If the 744s ever leave the pax fleet, they would go to the cargo side in ANC I bet. Most Asian Cargo carriers have already dumped their 742s for 744s. (JAL Cargo, NCA, Korean, EVA, etc)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[qxdash8]

Are you kidding me??? Delta allows F/Os to check out CAs???

Wow. How did that one slip by?

73

Why not? These FO's are specifically trained to provide checkouts at these special airports to otherwise fully qualified captains. It's not like they are providing IOE or anything.

We have a number of FO's who are sim instructors. Whats the difference?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Are you kidding me??? Delta allows F/Os to check out CAs???

Wow. How did that one slip by?

73

I do SJO and MEX checkouts... The CA is still the PIC and has all of his authority. I'm just giving airport/theater specific information and making sure he's safe to operate in there with a normal line FO. I can't fail him, but I can reccomend him to have further instruction... I call myself a "seeing-eye dog."

It's a great program... very low pressure for the Captain as they aren't worrying about a true LCA breathing down their back. I'm simply there to make sure we get in and get out safely and to give the gouge on the operation.

 

[aa73]

I'm sorry, I guess I'm just amazed at the latitude they give you as F/Os at Delta. You gotta understand, I work at an airline where that sort of thing would never happen. Too much ego and ancestral worship, probably. At AA, NOBODY is allowed to become an instructor until they check out as CA, and then only after at least a few hundred hours in the left seat. Not even Sim instructor (although we contract those out, we don't use line pilots anyway.)

In any case, that's great they let you do that. I wish AA would lighten up.

73

 

[filejw]

aa73, NWA was like that until the recent past. JW