Discussion on AirTran T.A. - STAY ON TOPIC

[Lear70]

Moderator hat on.

Here is the new AirTran T.A. thread. AS I MENTIONED BEFORE:

"JUST LIKE USAIRWAYS/AMERICA WEST THREADS: ANY discussion of SLI issues in a non-SLI thread will result in a Flightinfo vacation. Period. The end."

We did the same thing with AWA/UAir threads about 6 months ago. It got to where it proliferated through countless non-related threads, and we're nipping it in the bud right here.

There is a Southwest/AirTran Seniority List Integration thread. Go find it and post your comments there. If you find an AirTran pilot commenting about the SLI in a non-SLI Southwest thread, I'll ban them, too. This will be applied evenly across the board, and goes into affect NOW.

1st offense: 7 days
2nd offense: 30 days
3rd offense: permanent site ban

I don't care if you're an AirTran pilot or a Southwest Pilot or fly for Joe Blow's crop dusting service, you are welcome to comment on the T.A., but do NOT bring up the SLI in this thread.

Thanks for understanding,

/mod

 

[Wesb737fo]

Anybody catch the latest from the SWA media day (G.K et al) on the subject of AAI spending until the deal closes?

 

[ASADFW7]

The TA is interesting since Gary Kelly stated that Airtran was not allowed to make major financial changes before the purchase.

 

[JT12345]

The TA is interesting since Gary Kelly stated that Airtran was not allowed to make major financial changes before the purchase.

Actually a major change would be when we were released into a cooling off period in November followed by jobs actions like Chaos or a strike. Um then while Airtran was shut down and losing millions of dollars that was going to Southwest with the purchase... I guess that is what a financial change would be.

 

[Nindiri]

Hmmm...with this new TA, if I go into my emergency bank now, I pay it back with one hour a month deducted from my accrual rate. So that would be 60 months, except I'll be on the SWA contract long before then and it will be a moot point. Interesting.

 

[asaflyer]

Not to worry. This TA is not a MAJOR financial change by a long shot. Basically raises the fo's up and puts in better work rules.

 

[doh]

What is the time frame for voting?

 

[Guppy Guy]

A lot of guys seem to be upset about it on the AAI webboards but out on the line this week everyone I spoke with said they were going to vote for it. It isn't what I had hoped for on pay and retro but there are good improvements in work rules.

The main argument against seems to be that it isn't a contract we would like to live under for the next 5+ years. While I agree with that, my gut tells me we will only have to live with it for 12-18 months max. until the SWA deal closes. We'll see. I'm voting yes.

 

[c9skytrain]

You mean there are about 12 guys upset about it on the AAI webboard. They just post all the time. Sit in the basement in front of the computer day and night.

 

[4 Fan Trashcan]

So it sounds like labor relations between pilots and management at AirTran are not great. What happened to get this TA passed all of a sudden? There was talk of a possible strike and cooling off period before this. Thanks in advance.

 

[Guppy Guy]

Well, I think most of us, including myself, were willing to fight this to the end. But, life is fluid and things change. As soon as the SWA deal was announced the NMB told us there was no way we would ever be released. The only leverage a labor group has is the withdrawal of service. The NMB said they would not allow that to happen. No leverage means we take what is being offered. The way I see it, we can take this OK offer and move on to bigger and better things(SWA) or we can turn it down and let management put the $$ in their pockets (and then move on to better things(SWA)). I choose to put the money in my pocket and then move on.

Am I happy that I got played by management for the last 5+ years? No way! But that's life, time to move on.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Well, that pretty much sums it up. Going into year six FO pay so I get a $20/hr bump. Reserve Ca's and senior Ca's getting screwed. Signing bonus is a joke. What am I going to do, vote this down and watch the union spin it's wheels for six months trying to get the company to give more right up to the point where the deal closes? It doesn't make sense to me. The no voters are entitled to be PO'd because this deal was designed to be a 51 percenter. Somebody was going to get tossed under the bus. You can say we should have negotiated like the SWA deal never existed but that's like trying to convince yourself moving to MKE is good by telling yourself it never snows.

 

[Whataburger]

Lear70,

So there can be only one thread about any one subject, period? Can we talk about Morris or Muse?

 

[Lear70]

What is the time frame for voting?

Allegedly Nov 20th-30th or thereabouts. Effective date for nearly everything in the T.A. starts Dec 1st, so the voting will be geared to end before or on Nov 30th so it can be officially ratified and in place for Dec 1st.

Lear70,

So there can be only one thread about any one subject, period? Can we talk about Morris or Muse?

I didn't say that, Mr. Smartypants...

Just no SLI comments in a non-SLI thread. There's the other Southwest-AAI thread about the SLI if someone wants to continue to discuss the SLI or you can start a NEW thread about the SLI. Just keeping the same rules as UAir/AWA threads we've had in place for half a year and applying them to this merger as well.

That said, if Morris or Muse have any bearing on AirTran's T.A., go ahead, as long as it doesn't discuss the SLI.

 

[Muppets]

Well, I think most of us, including myself, were willing to fight this to the end. But, life is fluid and things change. As soon as the SWA deal was announced the NMB told us there was no way we would ever be released. The only leverage a labor group has is the withdrawal of service. The NMB said they would not allow that to happen. No leverage means we take what is being offered. The way I see it, we can take this OK offer and move on to bigger and better things(SWA) or we can turn it down and let management put the $$ in their pockets (and then move on to better things(SWA)). I choose to put the money in my pocket and then move on.

Am I happy that I got played by management for the last 5+ years? No way! But that's life, time to move on.

Just on retro you will take home 7000 after uncle sam gets his. If you have been here for the whole contract negotiation of 5 yrs thats 1400 a year in retro (roughly). Even further...thats $120 bucks a month. And....hold on for this one guys.........4 Fing dollars a day! For the last 5 years. The company just bought you a value meal at McDonalds (almost). Good Job-Keep up the good fight. Im voting NO.

 

[Muppets]

Oh wait..thats captains heres some more simple math for us FOs at the Tranny
5400 after uncle sam
1000 per year for retro (Last 5 years)
90 dollars a month
3 dollars a day

A retro pay of 90 dollars a month! For the last 5 years........insulting. I dont need the money or the insult. Again...vote no.

 

[Guppy Guy]

I couldn't agree more. It's insulting. The alternative is to vote NO and get nothing. We have no leverage, the fight is over, time to move on. If you think that there is any way to reopen this negotiation and get a better deal before the SWA deal closes I'd love to hear it. There is not. Not without the support of the NMB. Those are the facts. As they say, "it is what it is".

 

[Muppets]

I couldn't agree more. It's insulting. The alternative is to vote NO and get nothing. We have no leverage, the fight is over, time to move on. If you think that there is any way to reopen this negotiation and get a better deal before the SWA deal closes I'd love to hear it. There is not. Not without the support of the NMB. Those are the facts. As they say, "it is what it is".

Where does it say the NMB wont support us? DO you honestly think the NMB walked into a room and said "we dont support the pilots of AT if this TA fails." I have trouble believing that- your union wants you to believe that and from reading your post... i guess you do. When we discuss a TA and the turd that our union just put forth we cannot consider options that "may" be on the horizon (swa). We need to be as solid a group now that we were last summer and work on current negotiations. Worry about the closest croc to the boat.

 

[Guppy Guy]

Why shouldn't I believe what the union is telling us? What would be their motivation for lying to us? Their accounts have been accurate and honest throughout this whole process. I don't doubt their analysis. I don't see any conspiracies. I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote one way or the other. Simply stating the facts as I see them and making a decision based on that. We fought the good fight. We can hold our heads high. We were begging to be released and fight to the end. Circumstances changed (ultimately for the better) and now we move on. That's how I see it. Anyone is welcome to disagree with me. I'm guessing about 25% will.

 

[AFcitrus]

Based on the TA'd pay rates, I will have lost $95,000 just in hourly pay over the last 5.5 years. Throw in another $9975 in lost 401k money and $8000 in emergency sick bank hours, Additionally I'll be back on reserve after holding a line for 1.5 years. Oh, I'm going to get roughly $10,000 in Retro pay for my losses. There's do doubt this TA was designed by the company and FO heavy MEC to get virtually all of the FO vote by giving them virtually all of the money. (incidentally I do agree they should get the highest % hourly increase but not the retro bonus as well) The company will get very close to a 51% vote if not a little higher. The FO's well deserved pay raises will be subsidized out of the CA's pockets instead of the company's.

Having said that, I do believe the TA will pass. But I am voting NO because if the SW deal falls through we will be screwed big time for the next 10 years. I won't be able to look my co-workers or the rest of industry in the face knowing I contributed to such a debacle. If the SW deal goes through then the question will be moot.

Let's face it voting in favor of this because of the possible SW deal would be like flying to a destination with a 10% chance of not being able to land there and not carrying any alternate fuel because of the 90% chance of it being ok.

 

[Muppets]

Its just so sad watching our pilot group fold like a French prize fighter. Look beyond the compensation page people!

 

[CatfishVT9]

So you vote no. Then what? Yes I would have like to have seen better pay rates, but a no vote is cutting off your nose to spite your face. If the TA fails, we are done. No more negotiation, we are parked. Period. Bob ads millions to the company coffers and his bonus thanks to you.

We are screwed for the next 10 years if it passes and the SWA deal fails????? Come on, MAN!! (in Ditka voice) In 5 years, I'm up $45 per hour. Did you only look at the current year? Seems to me those out year rates improve our "career expectations" argument.

Our leverage was gone and the negotiators followed the direction of the pilot group, not the blowhards on the ALPA forum. I saw Sean the day they were headed to DC. He spoke with a group of about a dozen of us in the crew lounge and solicited input. Not one person said to fight to the end.

So go ahead and vote no if you think you gain something by that. I personally think that is a win for management and a stupid choice.

 

[justin15e]

Has anyone posted the gains from AT on this TA?

What are the new payrates?

Any new rigs?

Min days off?

International or night overrride?

Premium pay?

I haven't seen anyone post any details on any meat in the TA.

What gives?

 

[Ty Webb]

So you vote no. Then what? Yes I would have like to have seen better pay rates, but a no vote is cutting off your nose to spite your face. If the TA fails, we are done. No more negotiation, we are parked. Period. .

I don't believe this for a minute. We actually have more leverage now than ever before, the problem is that this pilot group in general, and its leadership in particular, is not willing to capitalize on it.

I'm not willing to "hold my nose and vote yes". This thing will pass, but I won't enable it.

 

[Lear70]

The pay rates are in the other T.A. thread but I'll re-post them here:

Section 4: Compensation

Captains

Years 12/1/10 12/1/11 12/1/12 12/1/13 12/1/14

1 $106.36 $107.47 $109.47 $127.68 $130.08
2 $122.86 $123.98 $126.30 $138.15 $140.75
3 $127.51 $128.64 $131.06 $141.20 $143.87
4 $130.09 $131.23 $133.69 $144.35 $147.07
5 $134.49 $135.64 $138.19 $147.55 $150.34
6 $136.33 $137.49 $140.08 $150.91 $153.77
7 $138.31 $139.49 $142.11 $154.37 $157.29
8 $149.01 $150.89 $153.74 $158.13 $161.12
9 $153.03 $154.21 $157.13 $162.17 $165.24
10 $155.06 $158.19 $161.18 $166.93 $170.10
11 $156.17 $161.32 $164.37 $170.63 $173.86
12 $161.72 $165.02 $168.16 $174.97 $178.29
13 $162.22 $166.91 $170.08 $177.46 $180.82
14 $162.72 $168.82 $172.03 $180.03 $183.45
15 $163.22 $170.77 $174.02 $182.68 $186.32

First Officers

Years 12/1/10 12/1/11 12/1/12 12/1/13 12/1/14

1 $42.75 $42.75 $43.13 $43.56 $44.00
2 $67.07 $70.07 $71.41 $77.67 $80.44
3 $76.29 $79.59 $81.09 $83.44 $85.01
4 $86.03 $86.59 $88.23 $90.90 $92.61
5 $91.01 $92.57 $94.32 $97.30 $99.15
6 $92.50 $95.21 $97.01 $101.38 $103.30
7 $93.22 $97.24 $99.08 $104.56 $106.54
8 $95.08 $99.19 $101.06 $107.15 $109.18
9 $96.55 $100.71 $102.61 $109.87 $111.95
10 $98.75 $102.97 $104.92 $113.15 $115.29
11 $99.50 $103.73 $105.69 $113.93 $116.08
12 $100.78 $105.03 $107.01 $115.28 $117.46


There were no improvement to trip or duty rigs like we were initially seeking.

We obtained better merger & acquisition language and bound the holding company, but at the cost of giving up more Scope.

Scheduling language is vastly improved, with good gains for the reserve pilots, however build-up lines went away and you can't drop reserve days so the pilots who now can bid long call have less control over their build-up schedule.

No international or night override that I've found yet.

It's basically current book with major changes in the Scheduling section and Section 1, small tweaks in other sections, better pay rates, and a small bonus check to hold us until the Southwest takeover, with some good jumps in years 3-5 in case the SWA deal doesn't go through.

 

[jonjuan]

So you vote no. Then what? Yes I would have like to have seen better pay rates, but a no vote is cutting off your nose to spite your face. If the TA fails, we are done. No more negotiation, we are parked. Period. Bob ads millions to the company coffers and his bonus thanks to you.

We are screwed for the next 10 years if it passes and the SWA deal fails????? Come on, MAN!! (in Ditka voice) In 5 years, I'm up $45 per hour. Did you only look at the current year? Seems to me those out year rates improve our "career expectations" argument.

Our leverage was gone and the negotiators followed the direction of the pilot group, not the blowhards on the ALPA forum. I saw Sean the day they were headed to DC. He spoke with a group of about a dozen of us in the crew lounge and solicited input. Not one person said to fight to the end.

So go ahead and vote no if you think you gain something by that. I personally think that is a win for management and a stupid choice.

Let me guess-you're a CA who upgraded in 3 years or soon looking to upgrade? How would you feel if upgrade went to 10+ years? Recent new hires may be looking at this (especially if the merger fails). 10 years at a major to finally get to $115/hour ain't awful liveable.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

It is a little bit ironic to hear an AT captain bitching about "subsidizing" the FOs pay raises out of their pockets when that is precisely what the FOs have done there for the last nine years. Kind of petty frankly.

Voting yes.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Xrmeflyer
You called that. I have been thinking the same thing.

 

[AFcitrus]

It is a little bit ironic to hear an AT captain bitching about "subsidizing" the FOs pay raises out of their pockets when that is precisely what the FOs have done there for the last nine years. Kind of petty frankly.

Voting yes.

And that is exactly why we captains voted "NO" to the abysmal TA2 - because of how it did not help (and quite frankly hurt) FO's and Reserves. We could have voted for TA2 and you, my friend, would be effed right now.

So please step down off your throne and realize that we are a team here. We want the company to subsidize all of us and if that doesn't happen then we should vote down the TA - just like we did for you three years ago.

 

[Kharma Police]

It is a little bit ironic to hear an AT captain bitching about "subsidizing" the FOs pay raises out of their pockets when that is precisely what the FOs have done there for the last nine years. Kind of petty frankly.

Voting yes.

Good old class warfare!, works every time!

I for one am happy the FOs get a raise. They deserve it, they have been woefully behind in pay for way too long.