Dirty Tricks From Whipsaw City, part 1

[gret]

The question concerns the definition of an air carrier and how it may apply to a frac provider. I don't know and doubt that it has come up before as few 135 operators are unionized. It doesn't appear operating 91k puts you in an air carrier situation.

Don' know the answer and how it would be applied from a labor perspective.

 

[gunfyter]

Fracs are air carriers ... thats why they are unionized subject to the RLA....

But if someone wants to get us out from under RLA ... I am for it

 

[outerfix]

Frac's are Air Carriers because they are 135 Air Carriers. Flex is different because if they owned a 135 certificate they would violate the 49% foreign ownership rule. For that reason, they operate under someone else's 135 Certificate. I think a judge could rule either way on FLEX but my gut tells me he would offer the protection that M-B provides to the FLEX pilots. I know that some of the FLEX pilots feel that if they are not an Air Carrier that they won't be party to a single carrier suit, and that's true but Ricci could lose a lawsuit from the FLOPs pilots and be forced to integrate and FLEX would not have the protection of either a single carrier suit to stop it or M-B protections for integration.

 

[doh]

From the DOT website:

Anyone who wants to provide air transportation service as an air carrier must first obtain two separate authorizations from the Department of Transportation:

Economic Authority from the Office of the Secretary of Transportation (the Department) in the form of a certificate for interstate or foreign passenger and/or cargo authority
Safety Authority in the form of an Air Carrier Certificate and Operations Specifications from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)

As noted above, the economic authority issued to air carriers by the Department is separate from the safety authority (commonly referred to as Part 135 or Part 121 Operations Specifications) granted to them by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). For safety authority application procedures and related questions, air carriers should contact the appropriate FAA flight standard district office based upon the geographical location of the air carrier.

Flexjet is not an Air Carrier. We do not have Ops Specs. If your lawyers successfully argue that Air Carrier (your contract term, I believe) status applies to us, then Mckaskill Bond would apply to us as well. The court would have ruled we are an Air Carrier for purposes of this merger.

 

[outerfix]

DOH, I get what you are saying but FLOPS has in their contract that all fractional flying will be done by them. If FLOPS takes Directional to court and wins and you are not an Air Carrier you probably will be merged without a single carrier suit and without the protections of M-B. How would an integration go? Who Knows because there would be no guidelines. If you are an Air Carrier you would be subject to a single carrier suit but you have the right to argue that there should be no single carrier and if you lose you would have the protections of M-B. While you are not technically an Air Carrier, you operate as one under someone else's certificate so a judge could rule either way. Looking at the FLOPS contract, I think you run a bigger risk NOT being an Air Carrier.

 

[SDCFI]

Is FO making money? And if so how much? Because with the planned expansion of Flexjet to compete with NJ it's conceivable that if there is a lawsuit that forces a merger DAC (KR) could just close down FO or sell them, if there's a buyer. Seems to me Options pilots have the noose around the cajones. KR wants them to be the "value brand" which means anything that drives up their cost is going to be a no-go for the most part. At the end of the day after all the management by trust I'm a pilots' wet dream drivel KR is a businessman plain and simple. He's going to do what makes the most money for him and his investors (DAC). There's no simple answer but I think if FO pilots sue for integration with Flex its going to cost them in the end. Same deal if they try to close the loophole in the contract that only applies to companies owned by Options, not DAC. Unfortunately FO isn't too big to fail and with the size of DAC them going away would be a small blip on the radar. Raw deal for sure but appears to be the truth.

 

[Praetorian]

^^ Pure FUD ^^^

 

[Club ORD FO]

the question I have is, does FLOPS intend to take DAC to court over flexjet and force a merger?

 

[chief9404]

Is FO making money? And if so how much? Because with the planned expansion of Flexjet to compete with NJ it's conceivable that if there is a lawsuit that forces a merger DAC (KR) could just close down FO or sell them, if there's a buyer. Seems to me Options pilots have the noose around the cajones. KR wants them to be the "value brand" which means anything that drives up their cost is going to be a no-go for the most part. At the end of the day after all the management by trust I'm a pilots' wet dream drivel KR is a businessman plain and simple. He's going to do what makes the most money for him and his investors (DAC). There's no simple answer but I think if FO pilots sue for integration with Flex its going to cost them in the end. Same deal if they try to close the loophole in the contract that only applies to companies owned by Options, not DAC. Unfortunately FO isn't too big to fail and with the size of DAC them going away would be a small blip on the radar. Raw deal for sure but appears to be the truth.

Without Flops, KR's other businesses would fall like dominoes. ALL of his business ventures feed off Flops. Flops will never make money. But, Nextant, Constant, Sentient, Spinaker, Sorjeign will all make money.

For those Flex guys that don't understand KR I will try to explain it to you. Nextant buys beech jets from Flops for penny's. They re modify it and sell it back to Flops for millions. Planes other than beech jets get sold to Sorjeign Av for penny's and get resold for nice profits. All mtx is done by Constant.

It gets better guys. All Flex guys listen up. Now your going to be doing Spinaker and Sentient charters. KR will make you earn your pay.

 

[jetwash]

the question I have is, does FLOPS intend to take DAC to court over flexjet and force a merger?

I would say not right away until some other things get worked out.

It does not make sence trying to get Flex to merge with FLops right away.The union needs Flex pilots to keep receiving their good wages and benefits until we go into our next round of negotiations next year. That is where we are probably going to start from.

If the process is started too soon Kenn could cut your wages and blame it on the union contract. We hope Kenn gives you a raise.

Another reason it probably won't go to court right away is that why spend the money trying to force the issue when you can negotiate it in the next contract while sitting at the table. That would be a very nice thing to have in your hand when you are asking for more money. That is when we will see how much is it worth to Kenn to keep the pilots separate.

Just a quick question to the Flex guys. How many hours a month do you average? Do you keep track of 10 in 24 hours?