'different' clearances

[TonyC]

You sure about that?

4-3-21
a. "...Practice instrument approaches are considered to be instrument approaches made by either a VFR aircraft not on an IFR flight plan or an aircraft on an IFR flight plan."

-mini

Don't confuse IMC with IFR.









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[bobs98tlr]

4-3-21
a. "...Practice instrument approaches are considered to be instrument approaches made by either a VFR aircraft not on an IFR flight plan or an aircraft on an IFR flight plan."

-mini

What i THINK he was trying to say is that when your in IMC and doing a "practice" approach it would be considered a real approach since you in IMC rather then being on and IFR flight plan and doing a practice approach in VMC.

 

[minitour]

Don't confuse IMC with IFR.

.

oops...should've quoted Vik also...

He stated he was IFR in IMC...could still be a "practice" approach.......according to the AIM.

-mini

*edit*
Yep...that's what I really meant, but the more I read it (which is bad), the AIM makes no mention of conditions. Only "IFR" (flight plan).

 

[bigD]

Holy crap guys, way to pick nits here!

 

[TIS]

Hey guys, this IS a change item!

This problem is arising from the fact that it used to be that when you were cleared for a "Practice Approach" implicit within that clearance was a requirement that the approach be conducted entirely in VFR conditions. some of us here remember when this was the case.

AIM 4-3-21 lays it all out a bit differently now. Practice approaches are now in the "adjective(practice)/noun(approach)" category as opposed to the "verb" category that they used to be. That is, when you conduct a practice approach, you're practicing your approaches.

FAA Order 7110.65P - the current version of the controllers' handbook is also quite clear and spells out a few other things that the AIM isn't a clear about.

4-8-11. PRACTICE APPROACHES

Except for military aircraft operating at military airfields, ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require. Normally, approaches in progress should not be terminated.

NOTE-
The priority afforded other aircraft over practice instrument approaches is not intended to be so rigidly applied that it causes grossly inefficient application of services.

a. Separation.

1. IFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches shall be afforded standard separation in accordance with Chapter 3, Chapter 4,
Chapter 5, Chapter 6, and Chapter 7 minima until:

(a) The aircraft lands, and the flight is terminated, or

(b) The pilot cancels the flight plan.

2. Where procedures require application of IFR separation to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches, standard IFR separation in accordance with Chapter 3, Chapter 4, Chapter 5, Chapter 6, and Chapter 7 shall be provided. Controller responsibility for separation begins at the point where the approach clearance becomes effective. Except for heavy aircraft/B757, 500 feet vertical separation may be applied between VFR aircraft and between a VFR and an IFR aircraft.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Practice Instrument Approaches, Para 6-4-4.
FAAO 7210.3, Practice Instrument Approaches, Para 10-4-5.

3. Where separation services are not provided to VFR aircraft practicing instrument approaches, the controller shall;

(a) Instruct the pilot to maintain VFR.

(b) Advise the pilot that separation services are not provided.

PHRASEOLOGY-
"(Aircraft identification) MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED."

(c) Provide traffic information or advise the pilot to contact the appropriate facility.

4. If an altitude is assigned, including at or above/below altitudes, the altitude specified must meet MVA, minimum safe altitude, or minimum IFR altitude criteria.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Altitude Assignments, Para 7-7-5.

5. All VFR aircraft shall be instructed to maintain VFR on initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter.

NOTE-
This advisory is intended to remind the pilot that even though ATC is providing IFR-type instructions, the pilot is responsible for compliance with the applicable parts of the CFR governing VFR flight.

b. Missed Approaches.

1. Unless alternate instructions have been issued, IFR aircraft are automatically authorized to execute the missed approach depicted for the instrument approach being flown.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Missed Approach, Para 4-8-9.

2. VFR aircraft are not automatically authorized to execute the missed approach procedure. This authorization must be specifically requested by the pilot and approved by the controller. When a missed approach has been approved, separation shall be provided throughout the missed approach.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.

As I see it, if you're VFR the controller is supposed to tell you to stay that way and further, they are supposed to tell you that standard IFR separation will not be provided. VFR aircraft are also not automatically granted clearance to execute the missed approach. An additional clearance must be obtained for that.

The bottom line is that this DOES represent a change for us older guys. The term "practice approach," as I said before, used to be a verb and now that term is FAR more literal with far LESS implied meaning.

TIS

 

[gern_blanston]

So you admitted to breaking the regs on the radio (i.e. flying VFR in IFR conditions?). Do you want to get your ticket yanked?

Admit we were breaking regs? Who said anything about VFR? I said 'IFR' AND 'IMC'. Read before you speak, man. Jeez.

You don't practice an approach when IMC

Folks practice approaches in IMC all the time. Don't know what the heck you're talking about.
Just because I'm on an IFR clearance, operating in IMC, doesn't mean I can't be practicing. The best practice is in actual conditions. I put 'practice approaches' in the comments section of the flight plan, but never referred to any 'practice approach' on the radio. Jeez, again.

 

[TIS]

Folks practice approaches in IMC all the time. Don't know what the heck you're talking about.

Just because I'm on an IFR clearance, operating in IMC, doesn't mean I can't be practicing.

Perhaps but it didn't used to be that way. See my post above. There HAS been a change.
TIS

 

[gern_blanston]

No, I'm not talking about 'practice approaches' in VMC, or even asking center for a 'practice approach.' I'm talking about filing and IFR flight plan, getting an IFR clearance, taking off into the clouds, and getting some practice.
I know what you guys are talking about, but that's not what I mean when I say, "Hey, Bob, I'm gonna' go practice a few approaches in the Baron." I mean I'm going to go fly in the clouds and hone my skills.

 

[HMR]

How about getting cleared to an altitude that's a few thousand feet below the terrain? I've had it happen twice in the past 2 years. Both times I was single pilot in the soup over big rocks.

 

[User546]

Coming from the east coast recently, Center comes on and makes the dreaded statement "Got a new clearance, advise when ready to copy." Scramble for the pen, find a notepad, and she gives us an ungodly long clearance which included no less then three VOR's, three or four airways, and a new arrival into our destination which began at an odd intersection. Of course we immediately requested if we could just go direct to the arrival or destination instead - which she immediately denied with a rather cranky tone about how everyone has to fly in this way, blah blah blah.

So the next few minutes were spent pulling out all our enroute charts, thumbing thru them to find the two we needed (of course its never on just one chart), looked up the VOR identifiers in the Accukwik, pulled out the new arrival from another binder, then dilligently entered them into the FMS.

Took us a couple minutes or so to get it all in the FMS, thanks to it trying to reject the Arrival based on the intersection given.

And I kid you not, no sooner did we hit the ENTER button to add the new routing to the box, as if on cue, the controller came on and said "Cleared direct to destination."

The words that were spoken in that cockpit those next few moments could've made Andrew Dice Clay blush! I was laughing so hard at the Captains non-stop tirade towards the woman controller, that I couldn't even respond back to her with the instructions!

 

[TonyC]

oops...should've quoted Vik also...

Sorry, mini, didn't mean to pick on you there. My score card was getting hard to read with all the additions, deletions, erasures, and white-out. I lost track of who thought what and why, but thought that by bringing up the IFR/IMC thing, somebody might have a lightbulb come on somewhere.

Apparently, though, I should have asked, "Is that Practice with a Big P, or practice with a little p?" I'll go back to watching from the third base line now.







.

 

[minitour]

Sorry, mini, didn't mean to pick on you there. My score card was getting hard to read with all the additions, deletions, erasures, and white-out. I lost track of who thought what and why, but thought that by bringing up the IFR/IMC thing, somebody might have a lightbulb come on somewhere.

Apparently, though, I should have asked, "Is that Practice with a Big P, or practice with a little p?" I'll go back to watching from the third base line now.

.

It all good T diggity dawg...I be gangsta'

-mini

 

[chriskcmo]

"Albquerque Center, can you ask the center director for a vector to hector?"

I overhead this on KC Center once: "CorpEx 1234, cleared to STL via the Rivers2 Arrival, you can have whatever altitude you like, squawk 4321."

One night at MKC I got this clearance "Cleared for touch and goes on any runway until further notice."

Chris

 

[Midnight Flyer]

For flow control into Atlanta, preapre to hold. (Hear it too often!)

Wasn't this way until the commuters got all the Replacement Jets

 

[GravityHater]

someone posted a goofy one a while back that reminded me of this

"Boeing chrome-plated stovepipe triple nickle eightball, Moncton Tower - Got you ten in the slot, boots on and laced. You got the nod to hit the sod."

From Ace McCool, Jack Desmarais "Happy Landings"

 

[CRFLyPutt]

I hate the triple or quadruple bangers especially when you're busy. Turn left to 110, descend to 2000, intercept the localizer, contact the tower 118.70 and before you go there's traffic at you two o'clock and 4 miles.

 

[User546]

I hate the triple or quadruple bangers especially when you're busy. Turn left to 110, descend to 2000, intercept the localizer, contact the tower 118.70 and before you go there's traffic at you two o'clock and 4 miles.

I HATE THAT! I've always had a terrible short term memory, and I always get so messed up when they do that.

"Left to 110, uh, (waiting for other pilot to set altitude on display) 2... thousand, cleared for uh... localizer, looking for traffic..... contact tower.... uh, what was the frequency again?"
.
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I got befuddled on a callup to an ARINC freq the other day coming into Atlanta and totally gouged it to death:
"(FBO Name) ARINC Unicom, no Unicom ARINC, errr forget it... Citation 123AB."

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

I completed my flight training at KBJC outside of Denver. The airport lies in Class D airspace and is rather busy with primary training. Invariably during the weekend rush I would get this statement when leaving Jeffco's airspace to the north for the practice area. Rather than call out specific traffic they woud say:

Controller: "Cessna blah blah blah, numerous targets north of Class Delta, frequency changed approved, good day..."

The controller always said it with a slight inflection of "try not to hit anybody" today.

 

[Flying Illini]

Turn left heading 360, descend maintain 4000, cleared ILS 31C, 250 kts to Gleim, 180 to Runts, tower at Runts, 118.7. (got that this morning...it helps when you do it several times a week, you can kind of expect it.)

 

[GravityHater]

I hate the triple or quadruple bangers

Must be something about my obviously youthful features , they usually hear me once then start spoon feeding it:

"Descent and maintain 4000" then when I have that under control, I will get a vector, and when that seems to be on the up and up, in their careful voice reserved for slow children or the oxygen-deprived, "Nooowww, coonnttaact ABC approoaach on 1xx.yy, Goood daayy!"

CummON buddy, feed it to me!

Depends where you are, the controller's situation and traffic I suppose.