Did I bust a Reg?

[cookmg]

Hey Guys.

I'm having trouble getting a complete explaination of what to do in this situation. In fact, from discussing this with other pilots, I'm not sure whether I violated an FAR or not.

Flying south, VFR, towards a busy Class D airport, one must fly around (takes awhile), above (not practical), or through Class B airspace for an active Military base. I optioned to get the Class B clearence directly from the base for the transition. Prior to exiting the Class B I was told to contact the Class D tower. I did this, but I was told "aircraft calling, standby." My understanding is that I have not heard my N# and therefore am not in contact with the controlling agency. At the time, I believed that I was "stuck". I was still technically on a Class B clearence until I left the airspace at which time I would be in the Class D. The problem is that at the altitude assigned by the Class B controller, I would be below the ceiling of the Class D. So, I passed from the B to D without establishing contact. I then immediately climbed to the ceiling of the Class D. The tower called me back and directed me in to the flow of traffic. The tower was busy, but nonetheless did not question my actions. Was I legal? What should I have done?

Since the Class B controller had given me " mid-field transition at 2600 msl", could I have turned 360s above the field until establishing contact with the class D controller? Can I "inform" the Class B controller of what I need to do, or must I get a clearence from him? Keep in mind that I wasn't assigned a heading.

If I were talking to an approach controller, could I have assumed that I was clear in to class D per a handoff? Is it right to assume that I was handed off in this case and that is why I was okay to enter the class D?

Was I stuck between two violations? What would you guys do?

Thanks for the input.

 

[Jetsnake]

File a NASA report within 10 day's
just to cover your ass.

There's alway's 2 sides to the story.
Your's being the most important...

Jetsnake

 

[generaltso]

If they didn't say anything, you should be fine... but from your story it didn't sound like you did anything wrong.

 

[maverick_fp00]

When you go through Class D, all you need is 2 way communications. You don't have to have permission if I remember correctly. Also, if you are going from point A to point B, let's say from Houston, TX to Jacksonville, Fl and you are cleared direct, you don't have to worry about breaking through, lets say in this example, New Orleans' airspace. You won't have to call New Orleans Tower and ask them if you can proceed through their airspace from west to east.

That's my understanding of it. I never have a problem.

-Nick

 

[bobbysamd]

Clearance

You weren't told to phone the tower, were you?

File the NASA report, just to be sure, but I, too, think you were okay.

 

[burping_boy]

About 2-way communications...

The way it is stated is that "two-way communications must be ESTABLISHED" to enter class C or class D. If the controlling agency of that airspace (tower, approach, what have you) does NOT read back your callsign, then you have not established communications. In his case, "aircraft calling please stand by", communications were not established with the class D facility.

At any rate, yeah, file the NASA report.

 

[ILLINI]

I agree with burping_boy's definition of establishing 2-way communication with "D" or "C" airspace. However, there is one thing i'd like to add to what he mentioned. This may seem quite obvious, but there is one exception where you may not enter the airspace even if they did state your N number. If they say "Cessna 123AB remain clear of the delta airspace", this counts as having established 2-way communication, but you must remain clear of the airspace per their instruction. If the tower or approach controler said "Cessna 123AB standby" then this is considered established 2-way communication and you may continue to enter the airspace.

Like the others have said... CYA and file a NASA form. In most cases, if you did bust a reg. the controller will tell you to copy a phone number and give him/her a call. Even then, he may just want to talk to you about what happened and you get no more than a scolding from him/her. If you ever do have to call a controller to talk about a deviation or something, be very polite, professional, and don't get defensive. They aren't police and don't want to bust you (they have alot of paperwork to fill out). There are however circumstances where the controller has no choice but to write you up whether he wants to or not.

 

[FlyinBrian]

If they say N123AB, remain clear of class Delta Airspace, you have indeed established two way radio communication, but you still may not enter, because you would be disregarding an ATC instruction. (91.123(b))

To answer the additional question, yes. You did bust a reg when you entered the class D prior to establishing Two-way radio communication. It sounds like you made a pretty good decision under the circumstances. I probably would have circumnavigated the delta to exit the bravo, and then tried calling again. To be sure, you could call up The class B controller and let them know the situation, and they will give you further instruction. You were legally in the B, so staying there isn't a problem as long as you talk to ATC about it.

I'm with everyone else, file a NASA form, and don't sweat it. That kind of stuff happens ALL THE TIME at Class D airports.

 

[skybuda]

Were you cleared out of the class B or just handed off. Did the class B controler tell you that you were to squak VFR (1200) or were you on the same squak. We often shot may VFR approaches which we were in Class B airspace only to be handed off to the Class D. By the time that we could get a word in we would be over the marker or in the top of the class D. As it sounds you were not shooting approaches. But sounds simmular, I know if we would have broke things off my butt would have been in some hot water with others following.

SB

 

[cookmg]

thanks everyone.

Yes, I think I am going to file a NASA report. I assume this is done at the local FSDO? I am a little concerned about this following me in my career though? Should I be?

In the situation I was describing, I could NOT circumnavigate the Delta without violating the Bravo clearence I was on. There is no buffer between the D and B airspace on my flight path. I think, if in that situation again, I will go back to the Bravo controller and tell him the tower is busy.

My next question: Can I "tell" the class Bravo controller that I "am" turning around to avoid penetrating the Delta. Or, must I request it. I'm not sure I can claim safety of flight here and simply "inform" the controller that I am violating the Class B clearence.

So, maybe I need to avoid putting myself in these situations.

Do you guys suppose that I could phone the Delta tower now and ask them about the situation. Maybe they will tell me that I was a coordinated arrival and so I did not need to establish contact?

Well, thanks for the help everyone. I'll look forward to more disscussion about this issue.

Mike

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

I am a little concerned about this following me in my career though? Should I be?

Dewd...Concerned about what? Did they call ya? Did anyone say anything to ya? Was the freaq full of people complaining about the "alleged" safety violation? No, so fill out the form and take it easy

 

[exeagle]

there should be a nasa report in the back of the far/aim. you just mail it to the nasa center in ca. if not , it should be on the web somewhere.

 

[clrd4takeoff]

Where were you flying? I don't know of any military bases that are class B. If the tower ddin't say anything to you, don't worry about it. The NASA report probably wouldn't hurt but then you are advertising the fact that you did something wrong. I would be certain that I violated some reg before saying anything to anyone.

 

[cookmg]

Yeah, nobody, including all controllers involved seemed alarmed. I was probably only in the Delta for a few seconds before I had climbed above the ceiling. The controllers were in the middle of a controller change and probably didn't even notice that I had penetrated the Delta.

The airfield I was flying to was montgomery field in San Deigo. Mirarmar is a Class Bravo airfield. It's kind of weird because I was NOT talking to approach, just to the Bravo Tower directly. This procedure is "standard" or atleast acceptable down here.

Now, like the last poster said, am I advertising a violation that no one may have noticed by filing a NASA report? What does this report mean? What actions might be taken?

Thanks everybody. And, yes . . . I will relax.

Can someone please respond to whether or not I could have "told" the Bravo controller that I was changing my flight path to avoid the Delta airspace. Is that legal? I didn't have time to request a new heading.

Mike

 

[FlyinBrian]

I would definitely not worry about that following you in your career that is a very minor infraction in a confusing situation.

I think your idea about calling the tower and asking them about it is a great idea. I might pose it as a hypothetical situation. I know that the tower at the Class D airport I worked at would LOVE to hear somebody ask them a question like that. Hopefully your tower is as helpful.

Was the class D surrounded by class B on all sides? If so, you were in a bind. I can think of two things you could have done.
1.) You could have been more insistent with the class D controller, and called him back after a very short wait. He might have gotten irritated with you, but at least you'd be legal.
2.) Call the B controller back and tell him tower is busy, and ask for 360's in your present position or something. This might irritate the B controller, but again: you'd be legal.

Unless it is for the safety of flight it is usually a bad idea to "tell" a controller what you are doing. They don't like that too much. You can make a request, and see what they say. They may have a better idea. I know one thing that the tower where I flew HATED was when a pilot about to enter the pattern told the tower that they were going to do a 360 for spacing. The controllers would rather give you a wider downwind than have you flying circles in the pattern. It really screwed things up They almost always asked a pilot to call the tower for doing that. They buster their balls but didn't report them.

 

[FlyinBrian]

A little off topic: It's a good idea to go "hang out" in the tower when you get the opportunity. You really get an appreciation for what they do and why they hate certain behaviors. Since September 11th, you can't just ring the bell and go on up anymore. I beleive you must have an appointment. Anyway, I knew the controllers on a first name basis, and it made me a much better pilot when I learned what I could do to make their job easier.

Our controllers were also VERY cool. The tower manager kept them on a short leash, but they loved him. It was a very well run tower, and probably the most helpful group of controllers anywhere.

We would phone them before doing touch and goes and ask for a go-around on our 3rd landing. They'd do it right on short short final. It was a great simulation for pre-solo students. Except when they'd forget and ask us if we wanted a go around the next time. Kind of spoiled the surprise.

 

[clrd4takeoff]

ASRS Report

The previous post are right concerning the ASRS report. I looked it up in my aviation law book. Go ahead and get a copy from your nearest FSDO (or online, if you can find it) ,fill it out and send it in. It must be completed and sent to NASA within 10 days of the occurence. The good thing is the FAA can't request it! So this would be a little insurance even though nobody probably cares about the whole incident anyway. Better to be safe than sorry.

I bet it is fun flyin out there with the F-14's!

Let me know if I can help any further.

This is a good book! General Aviation Law (practical flying series)
2nd edition
Jerry A. Eichenberger

 

[rumpletumbler]

I would think that something like this would only be pursued if the person on duty etc. just had a burr in the wrong spot or it caused another aircraft a problem.

RT

 

[flywithastick]

I had a strange deal like this in the Houston Cl B a year or so ago. I left Hobby for Ellington. Got to the perimeter of the B and was told to contact EFD twr. When I contacted them ,they had no idea who I was. Asked me if I knew I had just left Cl B airspace.

I told them I was VFR with departure out of HOU. They were pretty busy, so I threw in an appology for the confusion. I got to land & never heard any more about it. It was a busy afternoon and I'm sure departure just dumped me off to EFD without telling them first.

 

[ILLINI]

I wouldn't worry about a NASA form following you around for the rest of your career. These forms are completely anonomys and the FAA, or anybody else for that matter, cannot use them against you. NASA gathers the information from these forms to try to imporve safety. Some people reference these NASA forms to a "get out of jail free" card. There are of course limitations on the use of these forms. For example you could not illegally smuggle drugs in from Mexico in your airplane and then fill out a NASA form and get away with it! Read up on this topic some more so you can learn more about it. Don't wait too long on filling one out though... like others have said you only have 10 days from the day of the occurance. I would relax if I were you. I seriously doubt anything will come of this from what you have posted here. Like I said before, 95% of the time, the controllers will let you know if you are in trouble. This was just a learning experience for you.

 

[tarp]

Cookmg:

Good thread and something that I think other "new" pilots wonder about.

1.) Like everyone else said file a "NASA" report even if just for the fun of the experience. Remember, there is a reason it's called a NASA report - the personal information is held between you and NASA. NASA is NOT the FAA! Your information will remain confidential unless the act you report is such a serious infraction that you do not qualify for immunity. That said, no one in your future will ever see that you filed this report. To date, I've probably filed something like 20 NASA reports for all kinds of things from stupid mistakes on my part to outright near-air collisions caused by ATC errors. The FAA gets the contents of your report (without your name) and it goes into a great big safety database. Do your fellow pilots a favor and file the report. Oh and I'm with a 121 carrier and just filed a NASA report the other day. Best insurance policy a pilot can have.

2.) On the Class B / Class D thing, it needs a NASA report because it is something that ATC does to us pilots all the time. They have "turf wars" over airspace and we lose. Philly Class B and Wilmington Class D is a good example. Philly will often drop you on ILG's doorstep and just say contact tower. You merrily fly on into Class D thinking they've affected a handoff and get chewed out by tower who doesn't know a thing about you. Pilots get lulled into a sense of ease on this stuff because the ATC guys "normally" take care of us. But when they are having a bad day, WE can become the fall guys.

3.) On the fear of future implications, I think you fear too much. This is not the interview breaker - this is just good experience and I think you should pat yourself on the back for having recognized the potential problem and being very astute about airspace regulations. I'm not wishing anything bad on you, but most us have far larger skeletons in our closet and still manage to survive the interview process. A lot of folks think they need to go to an interview with a squeaky clean resume and background. Got to tell you, if the airlines only hired folks with perfect records, there'd only be about 18 pilots in the hiring pool. People bend metal, do young and stupid things that teenagers and college kids do, they break regs, they fail checkrides and yet they still seem to get hired. A good pilot is always learning. Judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement. Go figure.

 

[GopherEvertt?]

Most controllers are not out to bust every pilot that has incurred a minor infraction. The ones that get busted are the ones that blatantly bust a reg. eg: flying through a particular airspace without attempting to contact anyone. You made an effort to do it properly. I don't think anyone would make sure you were busted for that.

 

[Timebuilder]

My two cents:

What you are looking at here is the difference between the standards used to define "communication" for class D and class C airspace.

As soon as the class D controller communicated with you, and did NOT tell you to remain clear of the class D airspace, you were covered. The key is to make that call to the Delta controller before you enter his airspace.

Most of what was discussed above applies to the more stringent requirements of class C airspace. There, the controller must address you by your tail number or callsign for your entry, or may say "aircraft calling Allentown stand by", or "N32B remain clear of the class Charley" in which case you may NOT enter.

Case in point: not long ago, I had to fly VFR into Caldwell, and I used radar advisories from Allentown and New York approach. The New York controller waited until I was almost ready to turn downwind for landing befrore he cut me loose to Caldwell tower. After a phone call (not at the tower's request, we volunteered) we discovered that this is something that NY does very frequently, much to Caldwell's chagrin.

Lesson learned: use the other pilot, and the second radio, to alert the class D controller to what is happening, and that the controller for the overlying airspace is working you for traffic separation. (Important note: he was not "providing separation" he was advising me and the other traffic so WE could "provide separation")

No violation for you, cookmg.

 

[BigFlyr]

I say don't sweat it if the controllers didn't say anything to indicate otherwise... Once a particular action is questioned by a controller though... yeah... you might want to file the ol' NASA report just in case. IMHO.

 

[flyhi]

NASA form

Are you an AOPA member? If so, you can either print a NASA form from their website or call the 800 number and they will fax you one. They are very helpful.

Good Luck

 

[ShawnC]

File a NASA report to CYA, but don't worry about it. The controller probally didn't even notice, most class Delta's don't legaly have radar, all they have is a D Bright display, which is (according to my controller friend), not legally allowed to be used except for SA.

My friend also tells that, controllers hate to write you up its more paperwork for them. Most calls are scoldings unless you did something seriously wrong, and on purpose.