Did FAPA really try to reach an agreement??

[Fubijaakr]

For the advocates of a National Senority List.... how would a NSL have played out here?

Well, it WOULDN'T have played out like this:

#1 at Frontier is retired Air Force and F9 was his first job. One list hire date 1994.

#1 SWA hire date 1973. One list hire date 1973.

F9 wanted relative seniority. DOH wasn't even good enough.

That is just as unfair as stapling the F9 guys was. An NSL/Allegheny/Mohawk/Bond/McCaskill SLI would have gone more like this:

1. No bump/no flush
2. All pre-1994 SWA guys maintain their postion.
3. The remaining pilots are ratioed together based on the number remaining, i.e. one F9 guy for every X (X = the ratio of SWA pilots remaining) SWA guy.
4. All future openings awarded by new Seniority list.

Since both were narrowbody carriers, there are NO "career expectations" issues.

The issue, as I see it, was the SWA guys wanted the F9 guys to voluntarily abrogate their legal rights under Bond/McCaskill because "ITS SOUTHWEST AIRLINES OFFERING YOU A JOB" and gave them a fait accompli offer.

Now, you might argue that the F9 guys screwed the pooch, but its obvious that the SWA guys were going to get the best of this deal whatever way it went.

 

[StopNTSing]

I honestly have never witnessed a louder, more intense wave of disinformation in my life.

Here are the facts of the matter.

SWAPA provided FAPA with their first proposal Wednesday evening around 1930, and stipulated a 2130 drop dead time limit. FAPA was late to the "meeting", due to the fact that SWA was late to the UCC meeting in NYC and FAPA couldn't possibly discuss SLI without listening to SWA's entire presentation to the UCC.

It is worth noting that this proposal was a complete contradiction to the terms described as agreeable to SWAPA during a morning phone call by the SWAPA president.

FAPA was ready, willing and able to work throughout the night to achieve a fair and equitable agreement. Unfortunately, the SWAPA position to several negotiable points was "there simply isn't time to discuss that issue".

There were three SWAPA imposed deadlines. The first was 2130. The second was 2200. The last was 2400.

At approximately 2330, SWAPA decided to end the negotiations even though six out of 10 items had been agreed upon during a 110 minute period. SWAPA declared an impasse, not FAPA.

SWAPA stated that they would request an extension and that everyone should meet in DAL in the morning to solve the remaining open items.

FAPA mobilized and prepared for what appeared to be a weekend full of negotiations.

FAPA's M&A committee was not contacted once on Thursday.

Not once.

SWAPA proposed that at least 20% of F9 pilots would be immediately furloughed. Day one.

They also failed to identify how those 20% would be recalled, or if they would ever be recalled.

FAPA provided one proposal. One.

That proposal was drafted after the initial SWAPA proposal. In kind.

SWAPA's proposal did not protect the denver domicile. Only newly created FO positions.

Do not say that there was domicile protection offered. There was not.

SWAPA's proposal did not protect "all FAPA pilots". There were no recall rights outlined in the SWAPA proposal. In fact, the proposal itself stipulated that any excess pilots would be considered furloughed from F9 with FAPA remaining as their bargaining agent.

Please reread the preceding sentence.

At this point, I could care less about the SWA offer. I remain disappointed that it didn't come to fruition but the double talk, the hypocrisy, is just too much. My only motivation to post this information is the amazing difference between what ACTUALLY happened and what SWAPA has propagated.

The only thing you haven't provided is a credible source for this information. As has already been posted here, SWAPA has published a synopsis of the events leading up to the Thursday deadline. Has FAPA distributed a similar recap to the members and is anyone willing to post it here, 'cause we sure have a great case of "he-said/she-said."

 

[luv2fly]

No, not John. He hates message boards, just ask the rest of the FAPA pilots. I just can't keep my mouth shut when I know when something is being manipulated. Dozens of people know me on this board and they know that I am not Stemmler.

You need to re-read the first post. FAPA was late because SWA was late.

SWAPA did move to five years of "new" growth (actually they said five years and then changed to three years on paper). They also moved from 50% to 75%, of FO's. Define new growth. Is "new growth" after all of the airbuses are replaced, or does new growth occur gradually as each airbus is replaced? Please GMAFB about your domicile protection.

How could "FAPA concede nothing" when FAPA provided ONE PROPOSAL and then SWAPA ended the session?

SWAPA declared an impasse and then suggested that everyone meet in Dallas the next morning. To say that FAPA conceded nothing is a total and blatant inaccuracy. FAPA wasn't afforded the opportunity to negotiate.

Unbelievable how wrong you are. The DEN domicile protection was 3 years at 50% then SWAPA agreed to increase to 75%. That 3 years started after the 2 year fence. There was no mention of anything about growth from SWAPA. FAPA wanted all slots including "new growth".

By the way your leader (John) was late and no it wasn't because of SWA. The court delayed the start of the presentations. FAPA failed to counter SWAPA's final offer and did not engage SWAPA on Thursday.

Your information is way off base!

 

[ivauir]

Every letter, space-bar, and punctuation is true and factual.

No sir.

You post contains several inaccuracies, half truths, and a handful of out right lies.

Here are some FACTS for you:

- FAPA was 2.5 hours late because your pres doesn't know how to prioritize or delegate
- 6/10 items were resolved because SWAPA gave up ground
- FAPA did not yield on any item
- FAPA did not return phone calls or emails on Thursday

I hope your integration with RAH goes well. Good luck.

 

[USMC319]

Here are some FACTS for you:

- FAPA was 2.5 hours late because your pres doesn't know how to prioritize or delegate
- 6/10 items were resolved because SWAPA gave up ground
- FAPA did not yield on any item
- FAPA did not return phone calls or emails on Thursday
QUOTE]

Wow. This is very interesting. What FAPA is telling us is that SWAPA refused to return phone calls and continually put the negotiations off. They said that SWAPA refused to extend the deadline. SWAPA called an impasse before Thursday. They said that SWAPA would not move off the position of a straight staple. This is all contrary to what SWAPA is telling its group. The only thing that jives between the union comuniques is that FAPA was late to the initial meeting because they were busy hearing the SWA and RAH offers being presented to the Board.

I can say that with the exception of a few juniors, a staple was a non-starter for the F9 pilots, but an integration down the SWA FO list with pay and domicile protections would have probably got the deal done (my opinion). I personally would have been honored to be part of this group if it were done in a fair manner, but a staple was a slap in the face. I guess it is what it is. Both F9 and WN have a great group of pilots (with a few exceptions) so in that light lets all move on and not throw mud at each other.

 

[StaySeated]

"Unbelievable how wrong you are. The DEN domicile protection was 3 years at 50% then SWAPA agreed to increase to 75%. That 3 years started after the 2 year fence. There was no mention of anything about growth from SWAPA. FAPA wanted all slots including "new growth".

By the way your leader (John) was late and no it wasn't because of SWA. The court delayed the start of the presentations. FAPA failed to counter SWAPA's final offer and did not engage SWAPA on Thursday.

Your information is way off base!"

Once again, my information is 100% accurate. You are leaving out the details. In each of your points you are failing to include one or two crucial words.

The DEN domicile protection only included "new FO positions". You are correct, and I already stated the fact, that SWAPA moved from 50% to 75% of "new FO positions".

Define what a new FO position is, and when these new position were to begin to be created?

Timeliness. FAPA is a member of the UCC. SWA made their presentation to the UCC on Wednesday, and that presentation ran late. If you want to believe something else, then you are welcome to do so, but you will be basing your understanding on inaccurate information.

Your last sentence is the most inaccurate. FAPA provided one proposal, a counter to SWAPA's first proposal. SWAPA did agree to several items on the one proposal that was provided, but the negotiations were halted, by SWAPA, and everyone was informed that they should plan on reconvening in Dallas the next day to continue to negotiate. FAPA planned on meeting SWAPA on thursday, but the meeting never happened. FAPA never recieved a "final offer". They were still working on FAPA's one counter offer when the negotiations were ended on Wednesday night by SWAPA.

Again, whomever you are getting your infomation from is either intentionally lying to you or doesn't know the entire story.

"Here are some FACTS for you:

- FAPA was 2.5 hours late because your pres doesn't know how to prioritize or delegate
- 6/10 items were resolved because SWAPA gave up ground
- FAPA did not yield on any item
- FAPA did not return phone calls or emails on Thursday"

I covered number one already a number of time.

Number two is partially correct in that 6 items were agreeable.

Number three is 100% false. See above.

Number four is 100% false.

Eventually, the entire SWAPA proposal, the entire FAPA counter, and the truth will be available. When it is, you will find that everything that I have posted is 100% accurate. I stand by every statement.

Lets move on, shall we.

Best of luck to you.

 

[PropPiedmont]

Now, you might argue that the F9 guys screwed the pooch, but its obvious that the SWA guys were going to get the best of this deal whatever way it went.

As it should be. SWA is not the carrier on the verge of liquidation.

Why should our employees suffer because another airline was mismanaged?

Should SWA management and SWAPA given into all of F9s demands?

What would that have accomplished? 700 happy pilots and now 5900 pissed off pilots.

What kind of management team would do that to their own employees?

 

[Beetle007]

I admire the solidarity of the Frontier pilots for standing up to the insulting offer of a staple from Southwest. This entire deal really shows us the arrogance of Southwest for thinking senior Frontier pilots would love to be at the bottom of their list.

Frontier is better off without Southwest. They can keep their seat protection, pay protection, and domicile. They will also get much better job/furlough protection because I think they will be fairly integrated into the Republic list with fences on the Airbus. That provides much better job security than what SWA was offering.

I don't work for either airline, but I know I would rather be at the bottom of the Frontier list than the bottom of the Southwest list.

 

[StaySeated]

I admire the solidarity of the Frontier pilots for standing up to the insulting offer of a staple from Southwest. This entire deal really shows us the arrogance of Southwest for thinking senior Frontier pilots would love to be at the bottom of their list.

Frontier is better off without Southwest. They can keep their seat protection, pay protection, and domicile. They will also get much better job/furlough protection because I think they will be fairly integrated into the Republic list with fences on the Airbus. That provides much better job security than what SWA was offering.

I don't work for either airline, but I know I would rather be at the bottom of the Frontier list than the bottom of the Southwest list.

I don't know if I would say that F9 is better off without Southwest. This deal could have been a great thing, if executed.

If any F9 pilot thinks that the upcoming SLI with RAH isn't going to suck, badly, then they are in for an even bigger disappointment than last week.

 

[RedDogC130]

I am sure that all the Frontier pilots are going to love flying USAIR Express planes or who ever this Republic flies for...hell maybe if Gary gets his way they will be flying Southwest Express planes...now that would be funny.

 

[Beetle007]

I don't know if I would say that F9 is better off without Southwest. .

I guess I meant better off than the terms and conditions being offered by Southwest.

For example, how many of the Frontier pilots would have been happy with a staple to United in the late 90s? Airlines that pay the most sometimes fall quick and hard. A 7 year Frontier captain now makes more than a 12 year Airbus captain at United!

The Frontier pilots probably won't get a windfall in the seniority integration with Republic. An arbitrator will make the decision on what is fair and equitable. Ironically the arbitrator might even look at the fact that Republic was not the only bidding airline and the Republic pilots won't be able to easily make the argument that Frontier would have liquidated without their help.

 

[Cometman]

As it should be. SWA is not the carrier on the verge of liquidation.

Why should our employees suffer because another airline was mismanaged?

Should SWA management and SWAPA given into all of F9s demands?

What would that have accomplished? 700 happy pilots and now 5900 pissed off pilots.

What kind of management team would do that to their own employees?

What a true statement. You are 100% correct.

 

[Cometman]

I am sure that all the Frontier pilots are going to love flying USAIR Express planes or who ever this Republic flies for...hell maybe if Gary gets his way they will be flying Southwest Express planes...now that would be funny.

If Gary gets is waay with that SWA will be just like the rest of the Majors. You cannot let that happen. SWA is the only Maor left that doesn't use Regionals for their main line flying.

 

[Beetle007]

If Gary gets is waay with that SWA will be just like the rest of the Majors. You cannot let that happen. SWA is the only Maor left that doesn't use Regionals for their main line flying.

I remember in 2002 when U.S. Airways was the last Legacy to not have any regional jets....not a single one. How many regional jets are in the U.S. Airways system now?

Amazing how quickly things can change for an airline. One decade you are doing the best...the next decade you are doing the worst.

 

[scoreboardII]

fair[/B] manner, but a staple was a slap in the face. I guess it is what it is. Both F9 and WN have a great group of pilots (with a few exceptions) so in that light lets all move on and not throw mud at each other.

Without slinging mud, please explain how integrating F9 down the SWA FO list is "fair" to a SWA FO who happens to be the one working at the successful company?

I do agree, it is best for both to go their separate ways.

The bad news is this set the stage for future mergers under BM rules.

It will probably be best for all to let the failed company close it's doors before any attempt is made to integrate.