Details about the near-crash in Germany

[JoeMerchant]

A 250 hour MPL pilot is safe and legal... signed off by ICAO, the FAA, JAA etc....

Your kidding right?

Too many guys like Joe Merchant, want ALPA to be something it is not.. (even though they are free market captialist, they want ALPA to be socialist and install artifical market buffers...)

Either install them so we don't have to compete with each other, or get out of my way and allow me to compete with you for your job.....Either way, but make up your mind....

Don't tell me I can't compete for your job while you tell me we are in this together and we need to pull on the same end of the rope all the while you or one of my fellow "brothers" tries to undercut me or take my job....That dog won't hunt....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Those are cohesive and valid arguments.

What *CAN* ALPA do about it. First, I'll take a cheap shot:

1. Quit using the money your members are sending your for ALPA-PAC lobbying for something that the majority of them have voted AGAINST (age 65) and put it to use lobbying against something that they DO want (restrictions on cabotage). (Remember, I supported age 65 because it was arbitrary and unfair, but I don't agree with ALPA using ALPA-PAC funds to go against the majority of the membership - that's unethical in my eyes).

only 15% of ALPA members give to the PAC... nothing majority about it...

2. As I said earlier, set National Minimums on all contracts moving forward. You talk about "artificial market buffers" as if it's something ALPA doesn't do, but it DOES... it specifically mandates with each carrier, through individual contracts, how much they must pay for pilots, even when the market fluctuates and they could likely hire pilots much cheaper. That's not market capitalism, that's an artificial buffer.

I don't agree...but HOW do you set National Minimums... and what are you willing to give up to get them? National Maximums? So the Senior guys take a hit so the junior guys can have a minimum?

Lastly, company HR officials and pilots could likely agree that a company is adequately staffed when there are enough pilots to cover all trips given the established schedule and a certain number of days off, vacations, sick calls, etc; no more, no less. What will vary is what that number of acceptable days off is, whether it's due to illness, how many days off are acceptable, etc.

ughhhh ok.. but I doubt it... and what forces the company to comply? The Bush Admin?

Similarly, I believe most educated people would agree that they would not want a freshly-signed-off MPL pilot at the controls if the CA were to have a coronary descending to land into a field in Germany where the winds were gusting to 60 kts, especially after watching that video. What will vary is how much experience a person thinks is "adequate"... 1,000 hours? 1,500 hours (ATP Mins)? 250 hours ain't it... 500 likely isn't either, your mileage may vary.

It's not two separate concepts; whether it's right to have an MPL or whether the FAA is right to allow them to fly here. We all understand as aviation professionals that the safety is "questionable", so why are we standing around discussing it?

All that matters is how much money CorpAmerica can save until an unacceptable number of hull losses occur....

I don't understand what you're actually debating this point about... do you actually agree that the MPL and the pilots who are flying on them here is a GOOD thing?

What I think is irrelevent... what matters is what can be done... and HOW we can do it... that is it....

you may hate MPL... I hate MPL... but no one cares what we think... all that matters what we as a collective group can do....

 

[waveflyer]

Absolutely take from the senior and give to the junior- That's only short term- they'll get theirs when the leverage of sticking up for the junior kicks in. (ie: we're all a lot more willing to take a stand if we know that IF we do start over- we'll do it at a livable wage.)

 

[JoeMerchant]

What I think is irrelevent... what matters is what can be done... and HOW we can do it... that is it....

you may hate MPL... I hate MPL... but no one cares what we think... all that matters what we as a collective group can do....

Actually what you think, what I think, and what every member thinks is relevent....If forms our beliefs and thus drives us in one direction or the other...

What can we as a collective group do if we have different goals and concerns and are competing with each other?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Absolutely take from the senior and give to the junior- That's only short term- they'll get theirs when the leverage of sticking up for the junior kicks in. (ie: we're all a lot more willing to take a stand if we know that IF we do start over- we'll do it at a livable wage.)

Your living in a dream world....what are you willing to give up for me.....You won't get anywhere without the senior folks....and likewise the senior folks won't get anywhere without the junior folks.....

 

[PCL_128]

Your living in a dream world....what are you willing to give up for me.....You won't get anywhere without the senior folks....and likewise the senior folks won't get anywhere without the junior folks.....

Holy crap, I agree with Joe about a union issue! Amazing.

 

[Lear70]

only 15% of ALPA members give to the PAC... nothing majority about it...

And what was the percentage in the straw poll for support of age 65? What was the percentage vote of the 15% who contribute (or was that even broken out separately)?

That's an evasive answer you just gave, and most pilots don't like that... it erodes trust, which erodes confidence, which kills participation. Leadership 101.

I don't agree...but HOW do you set National Minimums... and what are you willing to give up to get them? National Maximums? So the Senior guys take a hit so the junior guys can have a minimum?

Waveflyer has it right:

The Senior guys, instead of pushing to regain 50% raises, agree to COLA the first round while the major push to restrict Scope, bring up the regional pilots onto mainline seniority lists, and set minimum hiring standards for regionals, as well as minimum wage levels for regionals and majors is conducted.

Next round, wage and pension increases on an advanced scale to return wages to some semblance of pre-9/11 levels, adjusted for inflation.

Instead of a "you'll get yours when you're senior" approach, ALPA switches to a "bottom-up" approach where no one suffers quality of life for the furtherance of another.

Yes, the senior will oppose this. It then falls to ALPA National to do the right thing or suffer the further splintering of groups as contracts erode further and further. The RJDC and USAPA are just symptoms of a deeper-routed problem INSIDE ALPA. Fix the disesase, not the symptoms.

ughhhh ok.. but I doubt it... and what forces the company to comply? The Bush Admin?

Where the hell did the Bush admin come into this? He's gone in 9 months anyway.

That theory doesn't come from me on staffing, that comes from the airline's HR department at 2 different airlines now. The only thing they can never agree with the union on is how many sick calls, days off, etc are needed, and constantly work towards that perfectly-balanced staffing mix of reserves for minimum days off, then are angry when they have to cover with extensions, junior assignments, downline drafts, or outright cancellations because they understaffed.

All that matters is how much money CorpAmerica can save until an unacceptable number of hull losses occur....

To Corporate America and the General Public? Agreed.

To you and me as Professionals? Absolutely not. I believe it's our obligation to do our best to stop the problem before it kills anyone. In a Leadership position in ALPA, that should be your priority... that's what Leadership is: taking the initiative to do the right thing for your pilots, your profession, and the flying public.

What I think is irrelevent... what matters is what can be done... and HOW we can do it... that is it....

I beg to differ. What YOU think shapes your actions and whether or not you choose to fight for something. If you believe it's a lost cause, you won't fight for it. If you believe it's worth fighting, you will. Basic human nature.

This is why it's of the UTMOST IMPORTANCE to elect union officials who are motivated, goal-oriented, and self-starters.

you may hate MPL... I hate MPL... but no one cares what we think... all that matters what we as a collective group can do....

True. So what are you going to do in your elected Leadership role? I know fighting for daily enforcement of your contract and working on negotiations that never seem to end is important, but someone has to pay attention to the "bigger picture".

No one at National seems up to the task.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Holy crap, I agree with Joe about a union issue! Amazing.

.....actually we would agree on more than you think....The way ALPA is structured now, everything becomes a senior/junior or mainline/regional tug of war.....That won't work....and isn't working....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Lear is dead on....

Straw poll folks.... Who would you rather have in a position of leadership in ALPA...

Rez or Lear?

 

[Lear70]

Actually, Joe, the results might surprise you. Rez is a safer bet, because he's not advocating drastic change and the unknown.

Pilots don't like not knowing what will happen next; it scares the crap out of them. A complete restructuring is what is needed, but that's why I say I don't think it will happen: the senior guys will hate it because they won't recapture their lost wages (or as much as they can get) right before retirement and just enough mid- and junior- level guys would be scared of what it would bring next and, similar to Rez, might completely doubt its efficacy.

I'm an idealist, always have been. Gets me singled out sometimes (as we obviously have seen at AAI), and sounds good, but getting the membership on board with that drastic of a change at 7 different major airlines would be a feat.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, though. :beer: