• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Delta Weather Procedures

falcondriver

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
382
Total Time
5000
Can someone give me information on Delta Airlines thunderstorm procedures? I flew from CVG to DFW and diverted to Austin. We penetrated a line of storms on the way. It was the worst flight I have ever been on. They scared everybody on board. They eventually got us to DFW, but I don't think anybody on that plane will fly Delta again.
Thanks
FD
 

Saluki Dawg

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Posts
395
Total Time
10000
FalconDriver,

I'll bet you were flying on Tuesday weren't you. That was a NASTY line of T-Storms. I was flying also that day, and believe me when I say that I kept my A/C and my Passengers as far away from those Storms as I possibly could. Of course, I tend to be a weather coward. I have found that I will live a lot longer that way. I'm not sure what Delta's policy is, but mine is to Avoid, Avoid, Avoid at all costs. I believe in never subjecting passengers to that kind of wild ride, if there is anyway at all to avoid it. Unfortunately, I have flown with Captains that did not share my attitude. That can make for a long month. Especially the months of March through June. Sorry to hear about your bad experience.
 

FlyingSig

Double Breasted _ _ _
Joined
Dec 1, 2001
Posts
560
Total Time
7000+
25 nm , just like the AIM

I bet you never flew in weather that was worse then you thought it would be huh?


Oh, if you flew on a MD88/90 the radar sucks. I'd take a Be1900D radar anyday over that one.
 

falcondriver

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
382
Total Time
5000
I was on a MD88. The pilots did a great job. The co-pilot was flying. I talked to him after the flight and he said it was really bad weather. I was under the impression that airliners don't subject passengers to that kind of danger but I guess I was wrong.
Thanks
FD
 

TurboS7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,261
Total Time
19,210
Did the airplane has a nice paint job? Maybe they were trying to get it to look like the rest of the fleet.;)
 

falcondriver

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
382
Total Time
5000
It got a good washing. Some of the passengers needed to wash their underwear.
FD
 

Huck

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2001
Posts
1,076
Total Time
11,000
I've flown a whooooole lot closer to the red in corporate aircraft than in any airliner.

When I first went to 121 flying, I was amazed when a captain deviated 50 miles off course to go around a line. In a turboprop! My King-Aire buddies never swerved, except to hit the weak spot between two red pork-chops on the radar.

I love that Ernie Gann story about approaching a huge line in a DC-2. He asked the captain what he was thinking. "I think we're gonna take a pasting!"
 

ifly4food

ifly4food.com
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
956
Total Time
To Muc
To the defense of the Delta pilots, I think they tend to be more weather conscious than most airlines. Spend some time on ATL Center freq on a bad weather day and all you hear are Delta requests to deviate around weather. A lot of times you even hear them deviating around "buildups".

As a side note on the original post, I love how passengers say "I'll never fly this airline again" when something like this happens. As if it's the airline's fault!!!

1. I'll bet AA, CAL, and everyone else going into DFW flew through the same weather that day.

2. I GUARANTEE that if Delta gets a cheap fare to somewhere they want to go, they'll "forget" all about this "incident".

Pax crack me up sometimes.
 
Last edited:

jaybird

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
523
Total Time
3.0+
I'm just curious, what exactly can an aircraft handle, thunderstorm wise? Obviously flown at Va, anything from a 172 to a transport category aircraft.
 

TurboS7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,261
Total Time
19,210
The problem with flying throught thunderstorms is you only get to fly through the one that takes your wings off-ONCE.
 

Le Pilote

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 28, 2005
Posts
52
Total Time
na
Well it's going to be a long, bumpy T-storm season. Starting already! But hey at least it's not snowing.
 

Flyer7SA

Active member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
39
Total Time
1200+
jaybird said:
I'm just curious, what exactly can an aircraft handle, thunderstorm wise? Obviously flown at Va, anything from a 172 to a transport category aircraft.

That really depends upon the aircraft. The older series Lears had 6 spars per wing. The wing loading was tested to over 11 Gs without failing, though it was certified much less. The pressure vessel was tested to Apollo standards which was 21 PSI differential before failure, though it was certified only to max 8.9 psi. This type of engineering is just not around anymore. I wouldn't go far to say that newer aircraft are inferior in any way, just that you might not even bat an eye at taking an aircraft such as an earlier Lear or Sabre into heavy Wx, whereas a KingAir or RJ, you may think twice about it (especially if you have Pax riding in back, rather than a drunk businessman who is just going to barf in his briefcase because he's worried that you'll charge his company for the cleanup).

As for Va, well, that's also being "redefined" . American Flight 587 was well below Va when the abrubt control force caused a structural failure. Our "classic" definition of Va is the speed at below which an aircraft will stall before any structural damage occurs. Perhaps that definition needs to be looked at again.

~FLyer7SA
 

FN FAL

Freight Dawgs Rule
Joined
Dec 17, 2003
Posts
8,573
Total Time
7,000+
Flyer7SA said:
As for Va, well, that's also being "redefined" . American Flight 587 was well below Va when the abrubt control force caused a structural failure. Our "classic" definition of Va is the speed at below which an aircraft will stall before any structural damage occurs. Perhaps that definition needs to be looked at again.

~FLyer7SA
Why would the definition need to be re-defined? VA protection is guaranteed on a rudder if you are below VA and you make a complete and abrupt control input to the rudder pedal and then let it re-center itself. Stomping on it in one direction all the way to the floor and then stomping on it in the other direction all the way to the floor, exceeds the limits of VA protection. Where is the confusion?
 

chperplt

Registered User
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,123
Total Time
.
Why would the definition need to be re-defined? VA protection is guaranteed on a rudder if you are below VA and you make a complete and abrupt control input to the rudder pedal and then let it re-center itself

Where is the confusion?

You didn't read the NTSB report on the AA flight, did you? The NTSB specifically calls into question our current definition of VA. They further state that control movement in the manner you describe above below VA can cause a catastrophic event.
 

learflyer

Time to drill Congress!
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
1,587
Total Time
5000+
I actually flew with a captain who said "Hey, the only thing you have to worry about a thunderstorm is the hail". He made me feel ALOT better! I love these pilots that just launch into tstorms after takeoff and then complain to tower or atc that "we need 20 left or right immediately for wx". You ever think of waiting 5 mins for it to pass?
 

Goose Egg

Big Jens
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Posts
1,719
Total Time
3k-ish
Flyer7SA said:
Our "classic" definition of Va is the speed at below which an aircraft will stall before any structural damage occurs. Perhaps that definition needs to be looked at again.

Flying at or below Va will only guarantee the prevention of structural damage if the aircraft is experiencing symmetrical loads. In a thunderstorm, there is no guarantee that loads will be symmetric.

-Goose
 

satpak77

Marriott Platinum Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2003
Posts
3,015
Total Time
5000+
jaybird said:
I'm just curious, what exactly can an aircraft handle, thunderstorm wise? Obviously flown at Va, anything from a 172 to a transport category aircraft.

Serious T-Storms should be avoided in ANY aircraft. Its the shear and vertical currents that will break an airplane apart, not necessarily (all though these will too...) the horizontal turbulence.

Revisit DAL in DFW in 1985-ish, TWA(?) or Pan Am in New Orleans in 70's, AA at Little Rock in 99(?)

Also observe VA may or may not be the "turbulence penetration speed" in your POH. Whatever the speed is, that is for a brand new airplane, not one flown by 100 freight doggers/CFI's/student pilots/prior owners/etc/etc.

Use your judgement.

My cry-baby puzzy a$$ self avoids all major towering cumulus with tops above 250, and I will deviate BIG TIME (fuel etc, allowing) to stay "VMC" between the clouds. I also prefer my human eyeballs over a radar anyday, altho I couple radar data with stormscope data and attempt to make an educated guess as to storm activity.

Back in my cancelled-check 135 days, we never flew IMC (almost never) thru T-storm areas, we went VFR with flight following and dodged them. At times this meant dropping down LOW LOW to the "highest sector" (or whatever its called, the highest number in that particular quadrant) altitude on the VFR sectional, and dodging rain shafts. Talking to your buddies on 122.85 up ahead also helped. Back then (now?) the only freight dogs with "real radar" were the Show Me or Martinair guys in Caravans. We used their Pireps alot.

later
 
Last edited:

ATCER

I have revised routing...
Joined
Sep 3, 2002
Posts
173
Total Time
500
falcondriver - after watching just about every carrier deal with weather I'll say that they all handle weather very similar. More then once I have seen 2 or 3 A/C "find a hole" and get through the worst of it to get into the airport. I have also had to deal with the guy that tried the same thing and it closed in around him. I notice that 99% of pilots are very conserative enroute but get a little more liberal as they get clsoe to the field. Where they would deviate 30 miles around a buildup enroute, some choose to find a hole to fly through if they are close to their destination.

As for best and worst from my observations... AAL is by far the most conservative. Where everyone goes 10 miles, they go 30. They often are the only ones that deviate. Slight bad rides reported up high... they all file for FL280. Worst... many foreign carriers, especially some of the south american flag carriers. You give them sigmets, airmets, etc. they roger you and stay on the route while everyone is slowing down and deviating.
 

FlyingSig

Double Breasted _ _ _
Joined
Dec 1, 2001
Posts
560
Total Time
7000+
I think this is the oldest thread I've ever seen resurected.... I had been just furloughed for about 2 weeks when I made that post ... 3 years, 2 months later ....


...nevermind, now that I read more threads I see Le Pilot is on a tear.....
 
Last edited:

Flyer7SA

Active member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
39
Total Time
1200+
FlyingSig said:
I think this is the oldest thread I've ever seen resurected.... I had been just furloughed for about 2 weeks when I made that post ... 3 years, 2 months later ....


...nevermind, now that I read more threads I see Le Pilot is on a tear.....

FlyingSig, you're absolutely right. It is kinda strange how all that time has passed since that thread and somehow I got a reply to it in my inbox and it seems to have started a snowball effect. Someone must have done a search on a word and didn't realize how old the thread was... No matter. Kinda nice to be back on the board again. My how times have changed, eh?

As for bad thunderstorms, we had an exciting afternoon in Wichita. A couple of friends made it in just before the storm (which seemed to die out pretty fast after dark). I had moved from Atlanta to Wichita since I made that post, and I thought that we had some pretty good storms in the south until I moved out here. The Wx out here is full of extremes. In the fall, seriously, watch out for trying to get into ICT on a foggy morning. I drive past the approach end of RWY 19R every day to work and there were some mornings I couldn't see the airport fence 15 feet from the road. I was watching a pretty good light show the other night, listening for sirens and then watching hail accumulate on my deck thinking, I'm glad I'm not up in that - and this was around 11:30PM. We never had hail in ATL that I can remember at night, yet alone very often.

Back on topic, though, sometimes I've chuckled at airlines that deviate WAY out of their way to avoid the slightest bumps or clouds. I shutter to think how my version of "medium chop" must feel to some of those airliner types... Then again, I think that my version of "smooth ride at 330" must be a harrowing experience to some . I've learned to gage my pireps according to the audience listening. Perhaps one pilot's "light chop" is another's "moderate turbulence". -Hard to say.

Livin' the dream,
Flyer7SA
 
Top