Delta TA Scope

[comrcap]

We had a couple DAL furloughees at Comair, and at least one moved on to another carrier. Here's my point. We hired DALPA guys/gals and they DIDN'T STICK AROUND! That is why the company wavered about hiring furloughees from other carriers without resigning seniority.
Hopefully Comair will again be independent of DELTA. We will fly for other carriers and maybe for ourselves on the side on another certificate. Delta can't run their own operation let alone Comair. I would rather sink or swim based on our own decisions. Not BS from ATL!

COMAIR will rise again!

 

[Lolikoka]

Are 180 Seats Worth It?

[This message is in NO WAY a criticism of any Delta pilot - so don't anybody take it that way.]

In several of these threads some of the DAL guys are stating that they will vote 'NO' on the T/A - but their rationale is scope. I can understand a 'No' vote based on pay cuts,or the clause pledging that the union will not fight elimination of the defined benefits plan - those are painful concessions. But are 180 total seats worth risking elimination of the entire PWA?

The new language allows up to 30 76-seat airplanes at the connection carriers. If those airplanes have 70 seats, my understanding is that we could fly them today - but those extra 6 seats on 30 airframes (180 total seats) could jeopardize the entire Delta contract if the T/A is voted down and the arbitration panel and/or judge tosses out the Delta pilots' contract.

Of course I can see management in the near future taking out the first class section and putting in all one-class configuration to increase capacity - 90 seats in an airframe designed for it, and the Delta pilots getting hosed again.
I can hear management now - "the airplane was designed for 90 seats - we need the capacity - and the pilots are keeping us from using our equipment in it's most profitable configuration." Then the issue is no longer 180 seats, but 600 seats (30 airframes x 20 seats each).

Perhaps during the latest crisis - when both the pilots and management needed an agreement - this would have been the time to put the union back together through some sort of list-integration/fencing arrangement; probably too late now.

Tough decisions - I'm don't envy the Delta pilots and the choices they have to make. Good luck.

 

[General Lee]

We had a couple DAL furloughees at Comair, and at least one moved on to another carrier. Here's my point. We hired DALPA guys/gals and they DIDN'T STICK AROUND! That is why the company wavered about hiring furloughees from other carriers without resigning seniority.
Hopefully Comair will again be independent of DELTA. We will fly for other carriers and maybe for ourselves on the side on another certificate. Delta can't run their own operation let alone Comair. I would rather sink or swim based on our own decisions. Not BS from ATL!

COMAIR will rise again!

Give me a break. Yeah, they didn't stick around, who cares? DL paid for their training, not Comair. DL owns Comair, they ultimately paid for it. Lame excuse. I knew a Comair Captain newhire at DL that washed out of the 727-FE program. Should we have stopped hiring Comair guys after that point because they might all fail and cost us huge money? Come on.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

[This message is in NO WAY a criticism of any Delta pilot - so don't anybody take it that way.]

In several of these threads some of the DAL guys are stating that they will vote 'NO' on the T/A - but their rationale is scope. I can understand a 'No' vote based on pay cuts,or the clause pledging that the union will not fight elimination of the defined benefits plan - those are painful concessions. But are 180 total seats worth risking elimination of the entire PWA?

The new language allows up to 30 76-seat airplanes at the connection carriers. If those airplanes have 70 seats, my understanding is that we could fly them today - but those extra 6 seats on 30 airframes (180 total seats) could jeopardize the entire Delta contract if the T/A is voted down and the arbitration panel and/or judge tosses out the Delta pilots' contract.

Of course I can see management in the near future taking out the first class section and putting in all one-class configuration to increase capacity - 90 seats in an airframe designed for it, and the Delta pilots getting hosed again.
I can hear management now - "the airplane was designed for 90 seats - we need the capacity - and the pilots are keeping us from using our equipment in it's most profitable configuration." Then the issue is no longer 180 seats, but 600 seats (30 airframes x 20 seats each).

Perhaps during the latest crisis - when both the pilots and management needed an agreement - this would have been the time to put the union back together through some sort of list-integration/fencing arrangement; probably too late now.

Tough decisions - I'm don't envy the Delta pilots and the choices they have to make. Good luck.

They cannot insert seats up to 90 seats during this agreement, and that is NOT sublect to Force Mejeur. I don't see them doing it either in the future, because in subsequent talks that would be shot down. We have rates for a 100 seater now, and why would we get a 100 seater if there were 90 seaters out there? We also have an agreement in the TA that does NOT allow subsequent 1113c procedures in BK.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bvt1151]

That is total BS. I was told by Bob Arnold himself (I met him at Malone's during one of my training events and he must have been there too for the same reason) that he WOULD be an MD11 FO and fly Europe. He is now your MEC chairman. Go ask him. I also flew on a jumpseat with one of your super senior pilots, I believe he was one of your chief pilots--real deep voice, glasses, white hair. Anyway, he told me going to DTW (to see a friend) in the jumpseat that he EXPECTED to finish his career in the left seat of the 738, flying to Central America for DL. How could I make this crap up?

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

The argument is that you were lied to by Arnold. Your response can't be "I was told by Bob Arnold himself..." He, and the rest of the MEC, have been feeding so much crap to you guys for years. Especially about the integration push and Comair's refusal to hire furloughed pilots. In fact he said that if Comair didn't give that to Delta without discussing any of the issues the Comair pilots had, he would simply say we outright refused, which in no way happened although you all believe it did. Our response was that the Delta pilots would be smart enough to figure out the truth for themselves. Guess that didn't work.

 

[General Lee]

General,

The argument is that you were lied to by Arnold. Your response can't be "I was told by Bob Arnold himself..." He, and the rest of the MEC, have been feeding so much crap to you guys for years. Especially about the integration push and Comair's refusal to hire furloughed pilots. In fact he said that if Comair didn't give that to Delta without discussing any of the issues the Comair pilots had, he would simply say we outright refused, which in no way happened although you all believe it did. Our response was that the Delta pilots would be smart enough to figure out the truth for themselves. Guess that didn't work.

Hey, I don't know the guy, I just talked to him briefly at Malone's in ATL near our collective training areas. When he told me he was going to eventually go to the DL MD11 FO seat after our seniority integration, I quickly got out of there.

As far as Comair and their wanting of more CR7s in exchange for helping our furloughed pilots in their time of need, I do believe that happened. Lawson liked to talk big, just like Ford. We had just helped (as a group in ALPA) Comair during their strike with strike funds (just like we were supposed to do), and Comair couldn't offer any assistance. (when ASA and CHQ did) I had guys on the jumpseat tell me the same thing Comrcap did---that it "cost Comair too much money to train people and have them leave"--even though we were ultimately paying for it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Lolikoka]

Correct...but now what?

They cannot insert seats up to 90 seats during this agreement, and that is NOT sublect to Force Mejeur. I don't see them doing it either in the future, because in subsequent talks that would be shot down. We have rates for a 100 seater now, and why would we get a 100 seater if there were 90 seaters out there? We also have an agreement in the TA that does NOT allow subsequent 1113c procedures in BK.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What happened to the "Dukes of Fallujah" avatar? I know that some guys on here gave you kraap about it, but I liked it.

Anyway - about the T/A. What's the consensus that you hear? Are the Delta pilots willing to risk having a contract tossed out? For what reasons - over 180 seats (scope) or other issues? The T/A looks like a hard pill to swallow in all respects - especially the additional pay cuts and acknowledging that your pension goes away without a fight. My military pension looms larger every day as this industry gets worse.

Best wishes.

 

[General Lee]

What happened to the "Dukes of Fallujah" avatar? I know that some guys on here gave you kraap about it, but I liked it.

Anyway - about the T/A. What's the consensus that you hear? Are the Delta pilots willing to risk having a contract tossed out? For what reasons - over 180 seats (scope) or other issues? The T/A looks like a hard pill to swallow in all respects - especially the additional pay cuts and acknowledging that your pension goes away without a fight. My military pension looms larger every day as this industry gets worse.

Best wishes.

I was told it was too large (I have heard that before---sorry) for the screen, so I had to take it down. I liked it too.

As far as having the contract thrown out, that would again ultimately result in a strike and shutdown. That won't happen. I think if it is voted down more negotiations would take place. Look at the judge at the Comair Flt Attendant 1113c. He didn't give any ruling at all.

As far as the additional pay cuts, there are none. We get the same pay cut we have now, because that was a temporary agreement. So, we do not get another pay cut from what we have now, and we would get a small 1.5% raise in Jan 07.(jan 08 will give another 1.5% raise, and up to an extra 6% if we hit performance criteria---and we also get 15% of any pretax income as a bonus along with other employees) As far as the pension goes, we all knew it would go away, since they haven't funded it in over 6 months. If any pilot was over 50 or especially over 53, they should have retired and taken the money. Those who did not were dumb in my opinion. IF the DB plan does fail, which is expected, the rest of us will get a large chunk of change in our own IRAs that we chose, and could get more with BK claims we also have (we are creditors also, with $2.1 billion in additional claims that could net $400 million more). In addition, our DC programs will get a 9% monthly contribution (if you make $10,000 a month, then the company would give you $900 worth of matching each month) and they would then also add an additional 2% for 401K matching that was already agreed upon. So, there are some people that will lose out, but anyone over 50 had the chance to leave with more.

Overall, this TA is ok, except for not helping the furloughed pilots. I will vote NO and if they have to go back and fix that part, sobeit. That will cost them nothing, since scope was not included in the costing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Regul8r]

General, can you tell us how you feel about contributing to declining pilot pay in the industry?

 

[Regul8r]

By the way you do realize with your cut in pay you are agreeing to give management a pay raise right? Your thoughts...

 

[General Lee]

General, can you tell us how you feel about contributing to declining pilot pay in the industry?

What do you mean? If this TA passes, our pay will go up a minimum of 4.5% in the next 3 years, with a potential of an extra 13.5% if the airline does well. Plus, we will get 15% of any pre-tax income for the year as a bonus, along with the other employees.

So, with a minimum INCREASE of 4.5%, how are we contributing to that? The regionals are declining or will be declining at a much larger rate in the future, trying to chase new feed.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

They cannot insert seats up to 90 seats during this agreement, and that is NOT sublect to Force Mejeur. I don't see them doing it either in the future, because in subsequent talks that would be shot down. We have rates for a 100 seater now, and why would we get a 100 seater if there were 90 seaters out there? We also have an agreement in the TA that does NOT allow subsequent 1113c procedures in BK.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Here we go again! Everyone remember this stuff. Remember his claims. And that they were at the end of April. In a few months he will denie this and we will need to remind him of these statements. Of course just like a politician he will say YOU misunderstood him.

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

. I will vote NO and if they have to go back and fix that part, sobeit.

Bye Bye--General Lee

We all thought the SCOPE was the pivotal item.

Atleast that all you have been blithering about here.

People can go the major boards to hear your bloviating

 

[General Lee]

By the way you do realize with your cut in pay you are agreeing to give management a pay raise right? Your thoughts...

What pay cut? We had a temporary pay cut last December, and that will now hold. So, no additional pay cuts. Plus, there is a clause in the TA that does NOT allow bonuses to management for our pay cuts. Did you read the TA? I don't think so. You need to. Besides the scope issue, it really isn't bad. Helping our current furloughs is the only area that needs work. Get informed before you post.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

We all thought the SCOPE was the pivotal item.

Atleast that all you have been blithering about here.

People can go the major boards to here your bloviating

To HERE what? Say again? You mean HEAR? Come on, that was a bad mistake. We all can't spell, but that was really dumb. Don't type so fast.

And, Scope is important, and we still don't know the outcome, atleast I don't. Do you? I will vote no.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

Hey, I don't know the guy, I just talked to him briefly at Malone's in ATL near our collective training areas. When he told me he was going to eventually go to the DL MD11 FO seat after our seniority integration, I quickly got out of there.




Bye Bye--General Lee

What a load. A simple LOA would have squashed any stupid talk of DOH carrying over. Any reasonable person on either side would have supported that.

Lame

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

To HERE what? Say again? You mean HEAR? Come on, that was a bad mistake. We all can't spell, but that was really dumb. Don't type so fast.

And, Scope is important, and we still don't know the outcome, atleast I don't. Do you? I will vote no.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I spelled it correctly.

Scope was all YOU talked about here. Trying to crawfish again?

 

[General Lee]

Here we go again! Everyone remember this stuff. Remember his claims. And that they were at the end of April. In a few months he will denie this and we will need to remind him of these statements. Of course just like a politician he will say YOU misunderstood him.

Well, I believe SkyWest is bringing in CRJ705s anyway, and they would be there regardless. IF they brought in a new 737-600, or an E190, then maybe that would raise some more eyebrows. There are limits on these planes, and they cannot be crossed. I am glad you have everything figured out. I will continue to give my opinions, and if they turn out differently, oh well. I tried.


Do you obsesssss much? I like how your name incorporates mine. Flattering.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

Well, I believe SkyWest is bringing in CRJ705s anyway, and they would be there regardless. IF they brought in a new 737-600, or an E190, then maybe that would raise some more eyebrows. There are limits on these planes, and they cannot be crossed. I am glad you have everything figured out. I will continue to give my opinions, and if they turn out differently, oh well. I tried.


Do you obsesssss much? I like how your name incorporates mine. Flattering.

Bye Bye--General Lee

6792 post. Look in the mirror about obsessions.

Just here to point out your BLOVIATION.

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

Deflect, Deny, and Counter-Acuse..... poor Debating strategem. Or are you just here to incite?

Don't like my commentary, don't read it.

 

[General Lee]

What a load. A simple LOA would have squashed any stupid talk of DOH carrying over. Any reasonable person on either side would have supported that.

Lame

No load there, an actual story that really happened. It was hilarious. You can deny it all you want, it happened, and senior pilots over there thought that way. Their excuse was "we have been flying DL passengers all along, we deserve DOH." Sad but true. Now you will be "Crawfishing", whatever that means.....?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Deflect, Denie, and Counter-Acuse..... poor Debating strategem. Or are you just here to incite?

Don't like my commentary, don't read it.

I like to read it, it makes me laugh. And, I give my opinion, and if that incites a riot, there is probably truth to it. What is a strategem? Slow down. Breathe.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

whatever that means.....?


Bye Bye--General Lee

WOW GL doesn't know something!!!!!!!

Holy SMOKES!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

6792 post. Look in the mirror about obsessions.

Just here to point out your BLOVIATION.

That would be obsessive, but I have been on here for 5 years, and I actually respond to all criticism and rebutt posts. And, I really enjoy this board. You sound defensive.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

I like to read it, it makes me laugh. And, I give my opinion, and if that incites a riot, there is probably truth to it. What is a strategem? Slow down. Breathe.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Not my job to compensate for your poor education.

use google.......

 

[General Lee]

WOW GL doesn't know something!!!!!!!

Holy SMOKES!!!!!

Thanks for putting me up on a pedestal. Do you pray to me too at night? I bet you do. Stop it, you are making me feel awkward.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Not my job to compensate for your poor education.

use google.......

Sounds like you went to the college of life, and flunked. Stop worshipping me and the Delta pilots. You need to pick yourself up and try to achieve the same. Go for it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

Sounds like you went to the college of life, and flunked. Stop worshipping me and the Delta pilots. You need to pick yourself up and try to achieve the same. Go for it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

HAHAHA!!!!!

Nice, I have achieved pal.

Of course a truly arrogant person would say that you only succeed if you end up like them. And you never fail to act accordingly.

I don't worship you. I highlight your lies, arrogance, and bloviating. You just don't like it.

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

I truly hope DAL does well, I have friends that need it to. However, a look at pilotpay.com shows it isn't the career ambition it used to be. Sad but true

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

And the name was in response to your assertion a while ago that you felt DAL should flow back to ASA/CMR when there was no agreement there before.

Funny I didn't expect your arrogance to spill into so many areas. I feel for your neighbors.