Delta TA Passes

[SplitBar]

Here is the part you don't understand. (Probably because you haven't read the agreement)

The increase in 76-seaters (which you refer to as 90-seaters, again because you probably haven't read a thing) is directly tied to the amount of mainline growth. In other words, the ratio is 1.25 B717's to every 76 seat jet. If they want to park, or defer some of the B717's then they don't get the 76-seaters (90-seater to you)

Everyone pining about "taking the first offer." What is the alternative? Are we to go down the same road that all our peers are going? Stall, be militant, basically not taking part in the business plan of the company? Look at where that has gotten them?

We are on a trajectory to increase the QOL life for all Delta pilots right now. Again, where is the rest of the pack excluding SWA, FedEx and UPS? We are getting closer to SWA, FedEx and UPS in total compensation.

I get what you are saying about terrorist events, wars, etc. If the company needs to look at ways out of our agreement, it will need to be looked at and changes will be negotiated. The burn it down days are over.

I wouldn't even bother with RSRVWINDSURFR . This fool works under the worst contract in the industry and finds the need to rip on others. I could point out why but it's pretty obvious.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

First, I voted No to the TA that is now the DAL PWA.

Second, there are real improvements in this PWA even though there are more 70+ seat jets. All of the concepts are cutting edge and will be mirrored by the legacy network carriers. I did not like giving up more large RJ's without a concise long term plan, but the PWA in place is workable.

My concerns will effect us mostly after the amendable date. I would have liked to see term limits or expiration dates on the DCI CPA's but we are far from finished with dealing with this seat segment and will have other opportunities to tighten it. In 2013 and beyond DAL will be growing their seniority list with or without a merger or acquisition. That was good enough for 62% of our pilots. Its only a three years deal as well.

Since you are not talking about the rest of the agreement, I will remain short. The rest of the PWA provides gains with quids. 62% of the pilot group though the quids were worth it. Its democracy at work. I voted the other way, but understand the yes vote. The gains are real, and from a DAL pilot only perspective will improve the lives of many of the pilots here. The work rule changes may effect a SLI but you never know who you will merger with.

In the end, its now our agreement and will offer section 1 protections that are new to the industry. I wish these were a little tighter, but the next three years will have growth to the DAL pilot seniority list if they go with the business plan in place.

See FDJ2, I can argue the benefits too!

 

[SWA Bubba]

You obviously don't pay any attention to my posts. I'm the guy always getting berated by the hard-liners because I take too reasonable of a stance on contract negotiations. The idea of wringing everything out of a company to the breaking point is not my style. No, I don't expect "something for nothing." But what I do expect is to not have to work harder than a Delta pilot to make the same amount of money. That's not industry-leading, bubba.

I most certainly DO pay attention to your posts. And my point is, that everything out of your mouth (or keyboard, rather) on this subject boils down to you trying to essentially make Southwest into an ALPA carrier. It's obvious that's all you know. You're not even on this side of the partition yet, you have no inkling of what life over here is like, and yet you clamour on about how screwed up we are, and how we need to be more like your ALPA-centric ideas. That's crap, and it's not going to happen.

-- You've referred to management on this board as "the enemy." That's a classic ALPA-ism. Management is not the enemy; they're our partners. Partners to be watched and kept honest to be sure, but partners nonetheless. Working together benefits both sides, and provides job security and benefits. ALPA? Not so much. Whether they actually understand that concept or not, they most certainly do not use it to their pilots' advantage. It's always the idea of "us versus them."

-- You bemoan the lack of a B-fund, and spout numbers goals and gates that every carrier "needs to meet." Another ALPA-ism. Newsflash--we're not like that. People here think our system works better, and in fact it allows you to sock away a lot more for your retirement than an ALPA 15% B-fund. The numbers you ticked off were not only designed for a system where pilots do the least amount of work possible (which is not the way things work around here at Southwest), but were wrong anyway, since you made false assumptions and counted some money twice.

-- Most recently, you've been whining that now Delta has the industry-leading 737 contract, and we need to use that "fact" to leapfrog them. Another ALPA-ism: "The other guys have more now; we need theirs plus 1%." Besides the obvious point that that won't work here (they got raises by selling something we're not willing to sell--scope and job security), you seem to be the only one who thinks Delta now has the industry-leading 737 deal. Even the Delta guys on this board are only saying that they're new contract gets them "close to Southwest."

Above you also bitched that you didn't want "to work harder to make the same as a Delta pilot." Well, we don't. Even if their payrates were slightly above ours (they're not), due to our efficiencies, we still would make more money for working the same number of days per month. Is that not good enough for you? Or is it too much to ask for you to fly more than one leg a day?

I just don't get you, PCL. I really think you should try to see things in other than ALPA-defined terms. At the very least, wait until you get on this side before you tell us all how ALPA ideas will make us "better."

Bubba

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

I wouldn't even bother with RSRVWINDSURFR . This fool works under the worst contract in the industry and finds the need to rip on others. I could point out why but it's pretty obvious.

(CAL) payrates on my a/c and seat are almost identical to Delta's pre-7-12 payrates, so spare me. Your new contract is excellent in many areas. Having said that, I don't think giving an inch on scope was worth the improvements. Many of my fellow CAL pilots and I are frustrated that you guys allowed more large RJs in, because believe it or not, it most certainly DOES affect us and our negotiations. Sure you can (and have) used the ol' "well your contract sucks so you have no room to talk" bit. BUT, we are fighting like hell to raise the bar. A vastly improved major airline contract is good for ALL of us, just as further concessions in scope is bad for all of us.

Perhaps if I was at DAL it would've been easier to understand the 62% yes vote. But being at an airline that is merging with a pilot group who lost 1500 of their pilots solely due to scope concessions, we (CAL AND UAL) are much more gun shy to giving anything more in scope. Our management team has proven again and again that they will use any negative situation and turn it into a strong arguement of how they need to outsource more and more to stay competitive. Perhaps your management team is , and always will be, different from ours. If so, you guys are lucky. But in the end, they all seem the same.

 

[redflyer65]

Dear Delta PFT Troll, aka Scoot,

I have news for you--you paid for training a hell of a lot more than any Southwest pilot ever did. Looking at Delta's careers website, I see they requre you to pay for your own four year degree before you can even apply at Delta. SWA doesn't require that. As YOU say, "no [4-year degree], no need apply...AKA 'pay for training'." That seems to make your company the friggin' King of PFT. I guarantee you that you paid at least ten times more than any Southwest pilot did to be "trained" up to your company's minimum standards. Quit setting a bad example for the rest of us, will you?

Plus I see you're required to buy a passport AND an FAA radiotelephone operator's permit on your own dime before you can apply! Southwest doesn't require that; the company pays for those things. Geez, man, enough! You're dragging the rest of us down.

By the way, thanks for your concern, but I have a great retirement; in fact, I bet I end up better than you do. I'm sure you have at least one or two more furloughs left in your illustrious legacy career--that'll probably hurt.

Bubba

Wow. Great post. How much does a four year degree cost for a SHOT at a Delta interview?

80 thousand sound about right?

I got hired without the type, and in the end it cost me a total of 1500 dollars. Best money I've ever spent.

RF

 

[Roomwithaview]

Pcl

Actually I think it's awesome that you're beating the ALPA drum and I hope it continues when you do finally make it to being a ASW pilot.

We could use a little fresh blood in the union department and I hope you run for office.

RWAV

 

[Roomwithaview]

Paid for a Type?

Big effing deal!

It's like when someone tries to belittle you by telling you your extremely hot girlfriend that loves to put out has one boob that's a little bigger than the other.

All the while he's hating life in the double-wide with his 300 lber and the four screaming kids.

 

[chjack]

Big effing deal!

It's like when someone tries to belittle you by telling you your extremely hot girlfriend that loves to put out has one boob that's a little bigger than the other.

All the while he's hating life in the double-wide with his 300 lber and the four screaming kids.

dont knock the 300lber until you try her!!

 

[General Lee]

dont knock the 300lber until you try her!!

Just ask Redflyer about that. He found a sweet 300lber at Amarillo one night, and has been going back every Sat night since. True love for Red and Bertha is FANTASTIC.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

Wow. Great post. How much does a four year degree cost for a SHOT at a Delta interview?

80 thousand sound about right?


RF

You're kidding, right? You're comparing a college degree, something that enriches one's life and makes one more marketable for almost any worthwhile job, to a type-rating that only one airline in the US requires? You're really going with that?

 

[redflyer65]

I thought it was REQUIRED to apply at Delta. Did I get that wrong?

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

You're kidding, right? You're comparing a college degree, something that enriches one's life ...

You ever been to Embry-Riddle?

 

[GogglesPisano]

I thought it was REQUIRED to apply at Delta. Did I get that wrong?

And any other decent job in the US. How many decent jobs in the US require a 737 type?

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

And any other decent job in the US. How many decent jobs in the US require a 737 type?

Off hand I know of at least one.

 

[dicko]

It's like when someone tries to belittle you by telling you your extremely hot girlfriend that loves to put out has one boob that's a little bigger than the other.

All the while he's hating life in the double-wide with his 300 lber and the four screaming kids.

There we have it folks. A rare glimpse into the personal life of 'Room with a View'; Valiantly defending his girlfriends deformity from the belittling attack of his trailor dwelling cousins.

Very disturbing stuff. Yet, sad and brave in a small way.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Off hand I know of at least one.

Please help redflyer see the logic.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

Please help redflyer see the logic.

I think he already sees it.

Question for you would be what do you define as "decent"?

The airlines that don't require a 737 type are not the ones I have any desire to work for. Been there/done that and it was not fun.

If you don't want to work for SWA then don't go get the type. Simple as that. Why people like you bemoan the fact that SWA requires a 737 type is beyond me. Why does that bother you so much? No one is forcing you to work here.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You're kidding, right? You're comparing a college degree, something that enriches one's life and makes one more marketable for almost any worthwhile job, to a type-rating that only one airline in the US requires? You're really going with that?

Yeah, I believe he IS going with that. These days, a college degree isn't what it used to be (nor is a type rating, for that matter). However, it IS a requirement to even apply at Delta. I would guess at some others as well, but Delta is all I specifically looked up.

The point is not whether educating yourself is a good idea or not. The point is whether it is an important minimum qualificaiton for a pilot job. After all, it's not like you spend all the time and money getting a 'quality' degree, enriching your life, etc. (as you point out), to only then sit down to decide: shall I be an professor or an airline pilot? People who want our job work at flying for years to put themselves in our position. It's a sometimes decades-long process. Having a degree in physical fitness, economics, or even basket-weaving doesn't really play into being a good pilot. Especially with places like online degree mills where you can get one just by spending the money and putting in a minimal amount of time.

Once upon a time, a college degree meant more, and showed a minimum level of maturity, education and commitment. Not just anybody could get one. Now? Maybe not so much. Hell, I see supposedly college-educated a$$clowns on this board saying stupid and childish things, and misspelling the simplest of words, all the friggin' time. That doesn't really say much about the strengths of a undergraduate college degree these days.

Also once upon a time, a type rating meant more and showed a level of commitment to a small company that couldn't afford to continually hire and train pilots, only to lose them to higher-paying companies. Nowadays, Southwest doesn't lose pilots over pay, but it still shows that you really, really want to work here to get the rating first.

Is it really important? Probably not anymore. At least not any more than possessing a random 4-year degree does. At least a type rating is related to flying. Regardless, they're both part of the minimum requirements to apply at our respective airlines, designated long ago as 'important' to the powers that be. On the other hand, at least I paid a lot less for my entry ticket.

Bubba

 

[GogglesPisano]

I think he already sees it.

Question for you would be what do you define as "decent"?

The airlines that don't require a 737 type are not the ones I have any desire to work for. Been there/done that and it was not fun.

If you don't want to work for SWA then don't go get the type. Simple as that. Why people like you bemoan the fact that SWA requires a 737 type is beyond me. Why does that bother you so much? No one is forcing you to work here.

I'm really not bemoaning the fact that SWA requires a type. Really. Frankly, they can require whatever they want. I'm trying to point out the false equivalency in redfler's argument that, "Well, Delta requires a degree, so what?"

A degree is required for just about every worthwhile job -- including more than one airline - in the US. And it's transferrable. The fact that Delta requires it shouldn't be seen as an obstacle for most. This is because most pilots who are serious about this career, and knowing the requirements and competition, have one.

The same could not be said of a 737 type. Hence the equivalency is dead.

 

[SplitBar]

Although a college degree is not a requirement for SWA, good luck getting on without one. I know there are those who have done it but to be competitive there you need a degree or a lot of luck/connections.