Delta TA Passes

[Full of LUV]

That's a good point. (It's also a good point that Dan had about SWA's plan being only as good as the funds picked.) However, since PCL rightly pointed out, "it's all company money." That makes it as good as your company's future, which is not something I'd want to bet MY future on. Ask USAir guys about that, or other airlines that have liquidated or gone through BK and screwed over their retirees. That "company money" you're depending on has a bad habit of going away when you need it. I kinda' like having power over my future, you know?

Sorry to hear you're embarrassed to be associated with SWA, PCL. You realize that you DO have the power to change that, don't you?

Bubba

As posted above, you couldn't be more wrong...

Defined Benefit= Pension fund (depends on company's future ability to invest and pay the benefit) A fund

Defined Contribution= Company forced to pay as you go, you make the investment decisions, money is yours and not dependent on company future. B fund

Only the government and a few more companies in sheltered industries are using pensions going forward for the simple fact that demographics in that system are unworkable without spectacular investment returns. Some smaller government pensions are switching to B funds vs the A funds going forward, without a BK though, it's hard to switch without just dropping new hires.

 

[FDJ2]

so your argument is that there would have been a ton of 70 seat turboprops flying around if we had kept our old TA? yeah right. you see how well the Q400 is doing. That's like when a friend of mine asked his rep why we couldn't just live with the way it's written now. His response: "maybe they'll develop a more efficient 50 seat jet". Amazing. How many 70 seat turboprops are flying for us now? How many 70+76 seat jets are flying now?

255 70+76 seat jets, under old contract it could have gone to 255 76-seat jets, under new contract 223. Whether or not, and how many large turboprops the company would have decided to contract for was an open question. Horizon is operating 48 Q400s, First Q400 next gen (Alaska livery) delivered in February. Horizon and Alaska seem to be doing well with the Q400.

Bottomline, there is no disputing the fact the the company could have potentially operated 255 76-seat jets, now it's limited to 223, the large turboprop loophole is closed, there are hard caps on DCI as opposed to unlimited capacity, there is a block hour ratio that moves more flying to the mainline and there will be fewer DCI flights over 900sm.

 

[waveflyer]

You're an idiot with an agenda if you think delta would have exchanged all their 70 seaters for 76 seaters-
And if they did, who cares?

 

[PCL_128]

FDJ, you're wasting your time arguing with wave. He has no experience in bargaining or union governance. He's just an angry malcontent who screams from the sidelines, hates Delta, and hates ALPA. He's not worth your time.

 

[poppi]

FDJ, you're wasting your time arguing with wave. He has no experience in bargaining or union governance. He's just an angry malcontent who screams from the sidelines, hates Delta, and hates ALPA. He's not worth your time.

Well said

 

[waveflyer]

Started that exercise program yet, PCL? -we got to get you ready for when delta hires.

Typical PCL- cant refute the statement, so tries to get personal- you know fdj is throwing out false statements, but you have to clamor and defend anything ALPA. ...
Keep prepping man, we'll get you a job you really want.

And you know I'm no more angry than you.

 

[PCL_128]

Started that exercise program yet, PCL? -we got to get you ready for when delta hires.

Started one a long time ago, wave. Lost 34 pounds so far. Has nothing to do with Delta, though. Just tired of being a frickin' fatass.

Typical PCL- cant refute the statement, so tries to get personal- you know fdj is throwing out false statements

Believe me, FDJ knows that new PWA inside and out. What he's saying is pure fact. You just don't understand it, so it doesn't sound right to you. Listen to the man. You may learn something.

And you know I'm no more angry than you.

The difference is that I get angry at our actual adversaries, wave: management and anti-labor lawmakers. I don't get angry at our fellow pilots and our unions. That's where you take a wrong turn. Your anger is directed at Delta pilots and at ALPA. Your anger is misplaced. It should be directed at management teams who insist on outsourcing. It should be directed at lawmakers who refuse to amend laws that place us in a weak position in bargaining. Your anger is nothing but a distraction from progress.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Wrong! This is what's so frustrating with you guys. You are adamantly opposed to something that you don't understand. With a B-Fund pension, the money is all yours. Doesn't matter if the company goes into bankruptcy. The money is in your own personal account that can't be touched, just like a 401k. The only difference from a 401k is that you didn't have to put any money into it. The company had to put the money in whether you contributed a dime or not. In Delta's case, it's 15% of gross earnings. The company makes the entire contribution, and then it's your money in your own account, untouchable by bankruptcy or anything else.

Let's get a real retirement plan!

I'm not "adamantly opposed" to something I don't understand. Having never been a part of a company that used those terms, I didn't get which was the DB and which was the DC plan; probably since you used the phrase that SWA had "gutted Airtran's B-fund." I had assumed that you meant they took the money away to use differently. I'll well aware of the difference between "defined benefit" and "defined contribution" plans. In fact, I'm a big fan of defined contribution plans.

By the way, thanks to everyone who pointed that out for me. :blush:

However, as far as being opposed to things you don't understand, you might want to include yourself in that group to some degree. The way SWA retirement plans work is different than what you're used to. So what. It's different. You want your retirement money to accumulate without you doing anything. You want a "real retirement plan." SWA wants you to have an interest in growing your own retirement. Take some responsibility, so to speak. With what the company contributes in 401-K and profit sharing added to my contribution, it far exceeds 15 or even 17%. Yes, I contribute some of my own money, but in the long run, it's more much money than just counting on the company-supplied B-fund. Plus, it keeps me honest, and as importantly, keeps me with an interest in the company doing well and remaining profitable. Hey, I even put away more of my own money in other investments every month, but maybe that's just me and my sense of personal responsibility.

If you want SWA to contribute more to your retirement, are you willing to give something else up? After all, you're asking for what would essentially be an additional 8-10% "payraise" to fund this. Obviously, a union negotiator can ask for anything he wants, but what he can get may be something different. Thus far, SWAPA has been more interested in the higher wages and job stability that we get, and then the pilots contribute some of that to their own retirements.

In all honestly, PCL, would you rather have your Airtran wages with whatever B-fund they provided for free, or Southwest wages where you have to contribute a little? And don't give me the crap about what's happening now, and your 717 story. I mean after this flux is settled, and you have the rest of your career as a Southwest guy. If you'd really prefer the reduced wages with the "free" retirement, then I suppose there's your answer about finding another job.

I realize that one of these days, you'll be in charge of SWAPA and can impart your wisdom and take care of all the Southwest pilots the way we apparently need. In fact, I can hardly wait. Until then, however, how about actually waiting until you're actually at Southwest, and see exactly how our lives, jobs, and retirements actually work, before you tell us how it's all crap and how we need to fix it, okay? Thanks.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

With what the company contributes in 401-K and profit sharing added to my contribution, it far exceeds 15 or even 17%.

It only exceeds it because you're paying it. These numbers are really simple as far as what each company contributes to the pilot's retirement:

Delta: 15%
SWA: 9.3%

In other words, take the new Delta rates and add an additional 5.7% to them. That's what they get that you don't get. And after you add that, you'll find that your pay rates on the 737 are exceeded by Delta's new rates. No matter what you want to believe, SWA pilots no longer have an "industry leading" 737 contract.

If you want SWA to contribute more to your retirement, are you willing to give something else up?

We don't need to. Delta pilots make more than SWA pilots now. Time to make that argument and insist upon a real retirement plan. The company should be funding a major airline pilot's retirement. The company's contribution should be enough to provide a pilot with 60% of his final annual earnings in retirement after a 25 year career. At 9.3%, it's not even close. The number needs to be something closer to 13.5% to get there. We shouldn't need to subsidize our own retirement as major airline pilots. All of this talk of "personal responsibility" is just the company convincing you that they don't need to pay the appropriate amount. Don't fall for it.

In all honestly, PCL, would you rather have your Airtran wages with whatever B-fund they provided for free, or Southwest wages where you have to contribute a little?

I'd rather have the Delta pay rates along with their retirement. That should be your benchmark, since it's now the industry leading contract for passenger carriers.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

How much do you think their scope Is worth? I bet GK would give up an industry leading retirement for the ability to outsource/code share. Or did you forget about that part of their contract?

 

[PCL_128]

Honestly, I don't think Delta style scope is all that valuable to SWA. RJs only work when they're part of a hub-and-spoke network that is primarily structured around feeding wide-body international flying. With a predominantly point-to-point route structure, a bunch of RJs would do SWA virtually no good. There's a reason that SWA management has never pushed really hard for it, and it's not just because they're such nice guys.

 

[Dan Roman]

How much do you think their scope Is worth? I bet GK would give up an industry leading retirement for the ability to outsource/code share. Or did you forget about that part of their contract?

Just curious and not flaming here. But how can GK give up an "Industry leading retirement" when SWA doesn't have one??? PCL brings up a solid perspective here, why don't you guys admit it and pull together to try and make retirement gains instead of burying your head in the sand on the issue.
As far as scope goes, you guys bash DAL using RJ's to feed mainline, yet your Intl expansion was to be Volaris and some Canadian airline doing it for you with 737's of their own. You are allright with that? That's the equivalent of DAL saying we are going to do their Europe flying with all foreign carriers and let them do it with 767's and 777's.
The whole scope/codesharing issue is something we all have to be vigilant about with our respective airlines. Feed and codesharing can create jobs and it can kill them, but we all live in glass houses on the issue. The SWA folks bashing DAL on this really are not seeing the big picture and are coming across us very hypocritical.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Not sure where to start exactly, so I'll take some of your points in order.

It only exceeds it because you're paying it. These numbers are really simple as far as what each company contributes to the pilot's retirement:

Delta: 15%
SWA: 9.3%

In other words, take the new Delta rates and add an additional 5.7% to them. That's what they get that you don't get. And after you add that, you'll find that your pay rates on the 737 are exceeded by Delta's new rates. No matter what you want to believe, SWA pilots no longer have an "industry leading" 737 contract.

You're counting some of that money twice. You can't say their pay + 5.7% = more than Southwest, since 9.3% of a greater Southwest salary is more than the first 9.3% of their B-fund. Plus, you're using pay rates at the end of their contract, not now. Time value of money and all. Plus, you're overlooking the fact that Southwest pilots work more productively for the days they show up (if they work the minimum, that is). More total money. Plus, you're overlooking the fact that Southwest pilots can pretty much work unlimited amounts of overtime for much more total money (and more of that 9.3% free money), something not available to ALPA pilots in general. To make a fair comparison, you have to look at average W-2s, not just payscales. That's seems pretty short-sighted for a sharp union guy like you. In that comparison, Southwest still wins by far.



We don't need to. Delta pilots make more than SWA pilots now. Time to make that argument and insist upon a real retirement plan. The company should be funding a major airline pilot's retirement. The company's contribution should be enough to provide a pilot with 60% of his final annual earnings in retirement after a 25 year career. At 9.3%, it's not even close. The number needs to be something closer to 13.5% to get there. We shouldn't need to subsidize our own retirement as major airline pilots. All of this talk of "personal responsibility" is just the company convincing you that they don't need to pay the appropriate amount. Don't fall for it.

Thanks for your concern, but actually, all my ideas of "personal responsibility" were NOT just propagandized into me by the company. They were instilled into me by my parents when I was young, something your parents obviously neglected to do. Since you're apparently of the entitlement generation, and feel your company "owes" you some arbitrary amount that you've quoted above, it appears my point was lost on you. And anyway, if you were a Southwest guy actually working hard for those 25 years, you could have much more than that Delta amount put away for retirement. I know I will.


I'd rather have the Delta pay rates along with their retirement. That should be your benchmark, since it's now the industry leading contract for passenger carriers.

Yeah, that wasn't one of the choices in my question, now was it? I believe it was Southwest or Airtran. So, why aren't you working for Delta? GL swears they'll be hiring like gangbusters soon. Plus, while Delta may have the "industry leading contract" soon by your sole metric (do the absolute minimum amount of work, ignore cyclic furloughs and the traditional legacy ups and downs, etc), it still does not have the industry leading 737 contract by the metrics that Southwest pilots think are important (job security, total compensation, ability to earn much more money, etc). However, I DO hope you do well over there, since that clearly seems to be your preference.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

Your argument is basically "we can make more money because we work more."

Sorry, but I don't consider that a victory.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Honestly, I don't think Delta style scope is all that valuable to SWA. RJs only work when they're part of a hub-and-spoke network that is primarily structured around feeding wide-body international flying. With a predominantly point-to-point route structure, a bunch of RJs would do SWA virtually no good. There's a reason that SWA management has never pushed really hard for it, and it's not just because they're such nice guys.

So SWAPA is basically just a rubber stamp that does exactly what GK wants? Didn't they fight pretty hard to restrict code share? You are saying GK would not love the opportunity to code share with other carriers? He would not sign up regionals to open up new markets if he had the chance? He is already starting to try to outsource more stuff. Maybe you are right. You should push for an ALpA drive at SWA to stop SWA from pushing around the pilot group.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Just curious and not flaming here. But how can GK give up an "Industry leading retirement" when SWA doesn't have one??? PCL brings up a solid perspective here, why don't you guys admit it and pull together to try and make retirement gains instead of burying your head in the sand on the issue.
As far as scope goes, you guys bash DAL using RJ's to feed mainline, yet your Intl expansion was to be Volaris and some Canadian airline doing it for you with 737's of their own. You are allright with that? That's the equivalent of DAL saying we are going to do their Europe flying with all foreign carriers and let them do it with 767's and 777's.
The whole scope/codesharing issue is something we all have to be vigilant about with our respective airlines. Feed and codesharing can create jobs and it can kill them, but we all live in glass houses on the issue. The SWA folks bashing DAL on this really are not seeing the big picture and are coming across us very hypocritical.

Dan, I think he meant GK would give US an "industry-leading" retirement in exchange for allowing codesharing. It's possible you took that wrong.

Plus, as I was trying to point out to PCL above, 9.3% (plus profit sharing percentage) of a bunch more total money, usually is more than 15% of a lesser total W-2 earnings. You know? Personally, I feel pretty good about my retirement, and I don't work nearly as hard, or make nearly as much as some of our captains. They get a crapload more in retirement from the company.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Your argument is basically "we can make more money because we work more."

Sorry, but I don't consider that a victory.

Got it. You want the most amount of money for doing as little as possible. Somebody owes you, I suppose. Your line of thinking explains why you're currently in the position you are in. Hey, good luck with that.

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

Got it. You want the most amount of money for doing as little as possible. Somebody owes you, I suppose. Your line of thinking explains why you're currently in the position you are in. Hey, good luck with that.

Bubba

Exactly Bubba. It's the same legacy mentality that have brought down just about ever Major. We don't want to work too hard, but get paid the most. Similar to the UAW 'Job Banks'. I'd rather have the Southwest package. Great payrates. Work min. (or less) if you want. Crank it out for big, big money if you want. The flexiblity is off the charts here. It's awesome.

PCL,

SWAPA will probably be looking to add a B-fund down the road, IN ADDITION to what we have know. The majority of pilots here completely max out the tax deferred accounts listed under the IRS rules. That's why we have an Excess fund you can contribute to as well. It all adds up to some pretty big retirement numbers. Which is a very good thing.

I imagine SWAPA will look for an opening down the road when the economy is better. We tend to work with the company instead of against them. Time will tell.

Dan,

Just to bring up to speed on codeshare. It's not Expansion...it's Contraction. We just limited ANY codeshare to just one company...Volaris and then decreased the amount with them. It's now limited to less than 2% total ASM.

To recap..

No RJ codeshare what so ever.
One international partner...Volaris (and they are severally restricted)
No other partners. No other feed.

 

[Scoot 11]

Don't forget, "no retirement."
And no type, no need apply....AKA "pay for training."

 

[PCL_128]

SWAPA will probably be looking to add a B-fund down the road, IN ADDITION to what we have know.

Hey, if they get an industry-standard B-Fund, then I'll cheer SWAPA along. I don't care what the union is called, as long as that union is engaged in pattern bargaining to improve the profession. I just haven't seen any evidence that SWAPA is even thinking about a B-Fund. From reading your Reporting Points newsletter, it doesn't even seem to be considered.

 

[PCL_128]

Got it. You want the most amount of money for doing as little as possible.

Well, yes. I know that bothers you and waveflyer, way up there on your ivory tower, but that's exactly what pilots typically negotiate for. You know, until bankruptcy when everyone else had to fall back down to your level.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well, yes. I know that bothers you and waveflyer, way up there on your ivory tower, but that's exactly what pilots typically negotiate for. You know, until bankruptcy when everyone else had to fall back down to your level.

Silly me. You know, personal responsibility, working hard for more money and to better myself... what used to be called "the American way" (and I don't mean the airline). Now, of course, we have "the entitlement way," which you seem to be championing. Do as little as possible, wring the most amount of money out of your company until it goes belly up, then rinse and repeat.

It seems that if you spent as much time working the job as you do bitching about how much you're NOT getting, you'd probably be getting what you want. But I suppose it's easier your way. You know, if you went over to France, you could get a job, and get 20 paid holidays and 60 vacation days per year, and the best part of all is, that you wouldn't actually have to do a damn thing, and they can't fire you ever unless you're caught commiting a felony. But you better hurry, because they're rapidly running out of other people's money to fund all that... you wouldn't want to miss out. I just wanted to say good luck, and that we're all counting on you, PCL!

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Hey, if they get an industry-standard B-Fund, then I'll cheer SWAPA along. I don't care what the union is called, as long as that union is engaged in pattern bargaining to improve the profession. I just haven't seen any evidence that SWAPA is even thinking about a B-Fund. From reading your Reporting Points newsletter, it doesn't even seem to be considered.

I think I just realized what your problem is, PCL--you've got your ALPA blinders on. You can't possibly think about any way to run a union and company other than the way ALPA has done it for time infinitem. Talk about complaining about something you don't understand. Open your eyes, man!

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Don't forget, "no retirement."
And no type, no need apply....AKA "pay for training."

Dear Delta PFT Troll, aka Scoot,

I have news for you--you paid for training a hell of a lot more than any Southwest pilot ever did. Looking at Delta's careers website, I see they requre you to pay for your own four year degree before you can even apply at Delta. SWA doesn't require that. As YOU say, "no [4-year degree], no need apply...AKA 'pay for training'." That seems to make your company the friggin' King of PFT. I guarantee you that you paid at least ten times more than any Southwest pilot did to be "trained" up to your company's minimum standards. Quit setting a bad example for the rest of us, will you?

Plus I see you're required to buy a passport AND an FAA radiotelephone operator's permit on your own dime before you can apply! Southwest doesn't require that; the company pays for those things. Geez, man, enough! You're dragging the rest of us down.

By the way, thanks for your concern, but I have a great retirement; in fact, I bet I end up better than you do. I'm sure you have at least one or two more furloughs left in your illustrious legacy career--that'll probably hurt.

Bubba

 

[St. Nic]

Delta, thank you for ruining the job with your scope (or lack of it?) clause and giving away flying to a bunch of "large regional jets". Well done

 

[BoilerUP]

Delta, thank you for ruining the job with your scope (or lack of it?) clause and giving away flying to a bunch of "large regional jets". Well done

Its taken a LOT of practice, but the quality of his trolling is slowly getting better...

 

[Scoot 11]

Delta, thank you for ruining the job with your scope (or lack of it?) clause and giving away flying to a bunch of "large regional jets". Well done

Says the 25 year f/o making less than a Republic f/o!

 

[canyonblue]

Your argument is basically "we can make more money because we work more."

Sorry, but I don't consider that a victory.

One of the biggest problems with this country right there. You, just like millions of welfare lifers out there want to get money for nothing. If you're so married to this idea of an Airline Pilot valhalla, your career path surely did not warrant it. You are probably the most hypocritical pilot on this board, and I have no confidence in anything you say. If you really were a man of such conviction, you wouldn't even be involved in this acquisition.

 

[PCL_128]

Do as little as possible, wring the most amount of money out of your company until it goes belly up, then rinse and repeat.

You obviously don't pay any attention to my posts. I'm the guy always getting berated by the hard-liners because I take too reasonable of a stance on contract negotiations. The idea of wringing everything out of a company to the breaking point is not my style. No, I don't expect "something for nothing." But what I do expect is to not have to work harder than a Delta pilot to make the same amount of money. That's not industry-leading, bubba.

 

[RedRum]

Well, get used to hearing it. That's what happens when you take the first offer with strings attached to it. Do you think your management just wanted to give you guys a raise out of the kindness of their hearts? 50 seaters would have taken care of themselves. You just ushered in a huge fleet of 90 seaters without a fight! Next time the economy tanks, terrorist attack, insert bad situation here, ect., just watch how great your ratios and protections help you then.

Here is the part you don't understand. (Probably because you haven't read the agreement)

The increase in 76-seaters (which you refer to as 90-seaters, again because you probably haven't read a thing) is directly tied to the amount of mainline growth. In other words, the ratio is 1.25 B717's to every 76 seat jet. If they want to park, or defer some of the B717's then they don't get the 76-seaters (90-seater to you)

Everyone pining about "taking the first offer." What is the alternative? Are we to go down the same road that all our peers are going? Stall, be militant, basically not taking part in the business plan of the company? Look at where that has gotten them?

We are on a trajectory to increase the QOL life for all Delta pilots right now. Again, where is the rest of the pack excluding SWA, FedEx and UPS? We are getting closer to SWA, FedEx and UPS in total compensation.

I get what you are saying about terrorist events, wars, etc. If the company needs to look at ways out of our agreement, it will need to be looked at and changes will be negotiated. The burn it down days are over.