Delta screws over Mesaba Pilots compared to Compass

[FDJ2]

Less than 100 mesaba pilots will be able to flow compared to Compass's entire list. Thanks Delta for showing your true colors.

You do know that the Mesaba flow through rights ended with the acquisition and that the Mesaba flow was always much more restrictive than the Compass flow, right?

You must also know that the Delta MEC signed an interim LOA with management to allow for the continued flow through of Mesaba pilots after Mesaba's sale, while four party negotiations were conducted to see if the flow through could continue after September. Without that agreement the flow through would have ended when Mesaba was sold. You know that right?

As the Delta MEC considers this latest loa, to once again extend the flow though agreement for the Mesaba pilots, they might also consider reciprosity (what flow down rights the Delta pilots might get) and possibly the unwarranted sense of entitlment of some.

 

[Jar Jar]

Maybe more stringent than Mesaba but no where near a real Delta or NWA interview. The same Delta interviewee this year and a Compass interviewee are not held to nearly the same standard. No cog tests, nor ten or so year history of flying at the commuters with a clean acc/inc and training history. Compass guys can puff their chest all they want about the interview, but just because you made it past a compass interview doesn't credit you for passing a Delta interview. Two different birds. No matter how you slice it and talk about who was there asking the questions or not, or how much experience the initial new hires had. Not the same hiring standard AT ALL. Sorry, you may make the list but you are no better than any other Mesaba flow.

Actually the newest compass guys all had to take cog tests, personality tests, written aerodynamics/atp/121 ops test, a full medical evaluation and a panel interview. They also had to have a 4 year degree, previous 121 experience and ATP mins.

Also, if you guys are unhappy with the outcome of your TA you need to be bitching at your MEC and management teams. You can tell them to compare your deal to Compass' deal, but really it seems you guys are directing anger at the wrong group.

 

[xjgearbtch]

You do know that the Mesaba flow through rights ended with the acquisition and that the Mesaba flow was always much more restrictive than the Compass flow, right?

You must also know that the Delta MEC signed an interim LOA with management to allow for the continued flow through of Mesaba pilots after Mesaba's sale, while four party negotiations were conducted to see if the flow through could continue after September. Without that agreement the flow through would have ended when Mesaba was sold. You know that right?

As the Delta MEC considers this latest loa, to once again extend the flow though agreement for the Mesaba pilots, they might also consider reciprosity (what flow down rights the Delta pilots might get) and possibly the unwarranted sense of entitlment of some.

My issue isn't with the DAPLPA, they didn't have final controlling authority of retaining mesaba's flow thru. Delta management is who I have a beef with. Hence my thread title.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I will not offer my opinion but I will suggest this:

If the LOA is that bad, make your MEC turn it down and then see what they can get. I am willing to bet it will be a lot less to nothing at all.

 

[Mel Sharples]

Also, if you guys are unhappy with the outcome of your TA you need to be bitching at your MEC and management teams. You can tell them to compare your deal to Compass' deal, but really it seems you guys are directing anger at the wrong group.

:erm:

No one is mad at the Compass pilots. We are just asking why we didn't get a similar deal on the flow from Delta management. No one is attacking the Compass pilots themselves or saying they shouldn't flow.

Tool...

 

[ACL65PILOT]

XJ;
I agree, if you read the loa concerning the flow, you will realize that all DAL had to do was sell XJ and they could cancel the flow. The fact that they agreed to allow a predetermined number to flow, is good faith on their part because there is not much we could do about it. Canceling or keeping the XJ flow has no effect on the DALPA PWA.

What concerns the DAL PWA is the flow downs. Getting rid of those without an agreement from us triggers the seat scope trigger. SO basically they can do anything they want with the flow ups.

CPS gets what they get because many ppl were hired on with the expectation to flow. (Just my guess of course)

 

[Mel Sharples]

I will not offer my opinion but I will suggest this:

If the LOA is that bad, make your MEC turn it down and then see what they can get. I am willing to bet it will be a lot less to nothing at all.

You are correct and that is certainly an option.

But I think most of us realize they tried to capture everyone they could. The beef is with Delta management and why they would give the flow to EVERYONE on Compass property (including new hires) but shafting the Mesaba pilots who have 10+ years and went through bankruptcy. That's all.

But your point is taken, ACL65PILOT.

To the others who say Mesaba pilots are hating on DALPA or Compass or whoever, you aren't paying attention. This is not a tantrum saying no one else should get the flow if we can't. We're just asking why the line was drawn where it was as it is horribly arbitrary.

And the scope issue is not an issue at all. Whether the flow stayed or not had nothing to do with Delta's ability to keep the 76-seat flying so that is not even part of this.

 

[goahead]

So when is the cut off for cz, or is there one. Do the guys hired next get to flow to??? Sounds like it'll be cz, military and minority groups hired at DAL from here on out, awesome.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Mel;
It is simple for DAL management. They want to hire their own pilots not ones that they did not interview or go through the NWAesque process. Right or wrong it is what it is.

Last time I checked the LOA was not "out." Have you read the language? If so send it to me. I would love to read it.

 

[PCL_128]

With this wonderful relationship that the DAL MEC Chairman always claims to have with Richard Anderson and the rest of Delta management, one would think that he could have secured a better deal for the Mesaba pilots. Or maybe he just didn't want to secure a better deal for them. Either way, I hope the Mesaba reps keep this in mind when it comes time to cast their vote for ALPA President in two months.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

As one who will not get to flow, I am disapointed though not surprised. I found the option to be a nice bonus for putting up with all the crap under NWA. As far as I am concerned it is done. My crosshairs are squarely on one target; Pinnacle Inc. and the joint contract. Anyone know where I can get one of those F.U.P.M. bracelets?

 

[Mel Sharples]

It makes perfect sense. If the Compass flow went away now, DAL would have to curtail the number of 76 seat jets in the DCI fleet. This is by agreement between DAL and DAL ALPA. By grandfathering in Compass's whole list, it gives DAL management years to figure out a way out of those provisions and/or grow their fleet to accommodate more 76 seaters. DAL could have turned the switch off at Mesaba any time with any repercussion to their operation. It all came down to the fact that DAL didn't have to honor the Mesaba flow, so they didn't.

And the scope issue is not an issue at all. Whether the flow stayed or not had nothing to do with Delta's ability to keep the 76-seat flying so that is not even part of this.

Doin Time - I think I misunderstood your post when I wrote the above part. I meant to the flow at Mesaba only has nothing to do with scope. Not sure about Compass and I should have read your post more carefully first. Had I read it to the end, I wouldn't have posted what I did.

My apologies...

 

[FDJ2]

My issue isn't with the DAPLPA, they didn't have final controlling authority of retaining mesaba's flow thru. Delta management is who I have a beef with. Hence my thread title.

Actually, final controlling authority came from 4 parties. All four have to agree to the terms to continue the flow through. Not letting DAL management off the hook, but you might consider that it might be Mesaba management who will ultimately be the more limiting factor here. Just a thought.

 

[FDJ2]

With this wonderful relationship that the DAL MEC Chairman always claims to have with Richard Anderson and the rest of Delta management, one would think that he could have secured a better deal for the Mesaba pilots. Or maybe he just didn't want to secure a better deal for them. Either way, I hope the Mesaba reps keep this in mind when it comes time to cast their vote for ALPA President in two months.

PCL, you just might want to consider that these were 4 party negotiations, and that perhaps, just perhaps someone other than DAL, DALPA, or the Mesaba MEC might have a say.

Don't you have bigger fish to fry on your own property right now? Maybe you should mind your own store instead of tossing stones across the hall.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Actually, final controlling authority came from 4 parties. All four have to agree to the terms to continue the flow through. Not letting DAL management off the hook, but you might consider that it might be Mesaba management who will ultimately be the more limiting factor here. Just a thought.

Why would the regional management oppose skimming higher paid senior pilots off the top...I suspect the opposition came from DAL mgmt. and DALPA who like to control who they annoint a "Delta pilot".

Let this be yet another lesson that "flowthrough" schemes don't work...This is like watching someone try to win 3 card monty over and over again.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

With this wonderful relationship that the DAL MEC Chairman always claims to have with Richard Anderson and the rest of Delta management, one would think that he could have secured a better deal for the Mesaba pilots. Or maybe he just didn't want to secure a better deal for them. Either way, I hope the Mesaba reps keep this in mind when it comes time to cast their vote for ALPA President in two months.

This doesn't surprise some of us PCL128....Yet another failed example of a "flowthrough"....

 

[PCL_128]

Joe, I actually agree, for the most part. This is a major blow to the credibility of flow-through agreements, which I think is a real shame. Flow-throughs were probably the best hope of starting to move towards brand scope, but this will scare regional pilots away. If we can't get real commitments from mainline MECs to secure iron-clad language, then regional pilots will never accept a flow-through as a viable option, and we just end up with more division. We have to start moving towards a real system of career progression that will provide job security for all pilots. I could be wrong, but I just don't see this result as a sincere effort to make this work.

BTW, no reason to get mad, FDJ. We're usually on the same side. We shouldn't let one difference of opinion on union politics cause division.

 

[bri5150]

Why would the regional management oppose skimming higher paid senior pilots off the top...I suspect the opposition came from DAL mgmt. and DALPA who like to control who they annoint a "Delta pilot".

Let this be yet another lesson that "flowthrough" schemes don't work...This is like watching someone try to win 3 card monty over and over again.....

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. THIS ONE DID WORK!!! Over 100 pilots flowed up to Delta/NWA and none flowed down. How did that not work? It just wasn't in place for a particularly long time. Not only that, but everyone that was hired at Compass under the assumption they would flow, WILL.

 

[Speedtape]

With the recent reports on the economy, I wouldn't want to be on the bottom of anybody's seniority list? I'm afraid the worst is to come.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

This doesn't surprise some of us PCL128....Yet another failed example of a "flowthrough"....

How's that? Didn't over 100 pilots flow up? How many flowed back?
Sorry you didn't make the cut in your interviews, and are stuck at ASA. Looks like this is one case where the interview process worked!
But hey, you can look at those newhires at ASA, and proudly tell them, "I bought my job here at ASA so you didn't have to.":laugh::laugh: