Delta says "NEIN" to merger w/US Airways

[BoilerUP]

Actually, a CAL-NWA merger makes the most sense of all.

...except for hugely incompatable fleet types. The 757 is the only common type between CAL & NWA, correct?

 

[Hpilot]

Try again

airways was never weeks away from liquidation, your an idiot if you think that md80drvr

The merger was moved up because, US Airways was less than a month from liquidation. Sorry, it's a fact.

 

[Carl S.]

I guess if you tell a lie over and over you begin to believe it as the truth, U was on death's door and that is a basic economic fact.

 

[m80drvr]

airways was never weeks away from liquidation, your an idiot if you think that md80drvr

Whatever dude, I may be an idiot but I have a grasp on reality that you do not.

Where was U going to get financing from? I'm sure there were hoards of folks waiting to invest in U. I guess all the analysts were wrong about the state of U also. They, like me, must also be wearing their dunce hats.

Keep living in your bizarro world, I'll keep living in my idiotic world hopefully we will never meet.

 

[Guppiedriver]

So the East system is responsible for twice the profit......

A350

I think you're confused. You meant to say, "The West management is responsible for the East system profit, period". How many profitable quarters did U have prior to AWA taking over?

It is all in what your perspective is.

Agreed!

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

Ok, md80 post one article that says U was days from liquidation...oh wait... Parker said it so it must be true. Your reality is a joke, I was on the property at that time - were you?

 

[NuGuy]

...except for hugely incompatable fleet types. The 757 is the only common type between CAL & NWA, correct?

Heyas Boiler,

This isn't nearly the issue these days as it was in the past. Both outfits heavily outsource maintenence, so the savings from common types from a maintenence standpoint is significantly less than it was in the past. True you have higher line maintenence costs, but those infrastructures are already in place.

As far as pilot costs, its really only two additional fleet types, the 737 and the 777. Chances are in a merger, the 330s (all leased) would go away, so it's a net gain of one.

Nu

 

[machtuck]

Usairways was not going out of business in days, combining east and west was a benifit to both sides.

 

[xanderman]

.....

 

[ALGFLYR]

Usairways was not going out of business in days, combining east and west was a benifit to both sides.

Days away? I doubt it. You can make the "numbers" say anything you want. Case in point: How many quarters did TWA post multi-million dollar losses? Something like 10 years wasn't it?.... you people will believe anything...

 

[m80drvr]

Whatever, the truth will come out in the arbitration anyway.


TWA was kept alive because it was a cash cow for Ikahn (SP). He was not going to let that bovine die, until he milked it dry.

 

[m80drvr]

Ok, md80 post one article that says U was days from liquidation...oh wait... Parker said it so it must be true. Your reality is a joke, I was on the property at that time - were you?

No I was not on the property then. I was furloughed in dec 2001. What's that sound crickets? Why don't you find me ONE article that said usair was expected to last the year. Give me a list of the investers they had lined up.

Again the truth will come out in the arbitraion. I'm sure it won't be hard for the AWA guys to show that the U pilots, YES me included, career expectations was the unemployment line. Therefore "no date of hire" integration that the U guys are damanding. I have personally seen the unemployment line twice in my career so don't assume I'm a 2nd year regional guy with the ink still wet on my ATP.

I'm just trying to be a realist about the situation. But as others have said i'm probably just an idiot.

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

ALGFLYR is right on the money. U was in worse shape just before BK than prior to the merger- thats a fact.

 

[FDJ2]

Ok, md80 post one article that says U was days from liquidation...oh wait... Parker said it so it must be true. Your reality is a joke, I was on the property at that time - were you?

PMFJI, don't hang your hat on the "days" from liquidation argument, clearly US Airways was in big trouble prior to the merger. Congratulations on the turn around.

America West, US Airways merger goes for a tight fit
By Dan Reed and Barbara De Lollis, USA TODAY

America West Airlines said Thursday it will acquire US Airways, saving the beleaguered carrier from the possibility of a bankruptcy liquidation.
Though America West would dominate the deal, the cash-poor Tempe, Ariz.-based carrier is committing little financially. Months-long negotiations managed to bring an array of outsiders carrying $1.5 billion to the table — hedge funds, credit card issuers, jet maker Airbus and Air Canada parent ACE among them. Backers say the money would create a single, well-capitalized airline capable of turning a profit even with oil at $50 a barrel……..

US Airways has reported official losses of $2.1 billion since 2000. But that doesn't tell the full story. In the nine months ended March 31, 2003, it reported profit of $1.6 billion. However, that was the result mostly of a $240 million investment by the Retirement Systems of Alabama and a $900 million federal loan guarantee that enabled its first bankruptcy reorganization. All told, US Airways has lost nearly $3.4 billion since 1999.

Some restructuring experts, like attorney Coleman, believe the merger to be US Airways' "only hope." A decade ago, when US Airways was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, an improving economy helped pull it and other carriers out of the downturn, he said. But this time that's not happening, in larger part because of the rapid growth of discounters.
"US Airways is not going to survive on its own," Coleman says. "It's a no-brainer from their perspective."

JMHO, but the merger has helped both companies. It wasn't so long ago that AWA was on life support also. I think the turnaround has been impressive. Good luck.

 

[TWA Dude]

Does anybody other than me think this argument is silly? USA was in bad financial shape. Was she days/weeks/months/hours from liquidation? Who cares? I don't believe I deserve a better spot on the combined seniority list just because USAir was in poor financial shape. Why must a pilot's worth be determined by the financial condition of his employer?

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

IMHO "career expectations" is something that can only be determined by a neutral observer and that's exactly what will happen.

Oh, and the "who bought who" argument is also silly and irrelevant.

 

[m80drvr]

xman:

yes....but I have a home elsewhere so it doesn't affect me directly.

However, I have lifelong friends at U that will never recover from this merger......so it p#$$es me off.

A350

I agree these arguements are useless, my original reaponse was to A350 for the statement above. And I stand by my contention that his friends are better off now than if U has not been bought, merged acquired whatever you want to call it.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Does anybody other than me think this argument is silly? USA was in bad financial shape. Was she days/weeks/months/hours from liquidation? Who cares? I don't believe I deserve a better spot on the combined seniority list just because USAir was in poor financial shape. Why must a pilot's worth be determined by the financial condition of his employer?

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

IMHO "career expectations" is something that can only be determined by a neutral observer and that's exactly what will happen.

Oh, and the "who bought who" argument is also silly and irrelevant.

Yeah me!!! Career expectation, what is this and just what does it really mean? I expect to have a job for the next 20yrs, I expect to be paid for the quailty work that I deliver, I expect to move on to the left seat someday. I expect, I expect, I EXPECT!!!! You may expect to bed Heather Locklear, I know I do but will that happen?? Hell no!!! So this thing about expectation is nothing more than hope!!! I hope we all survive and come out well...

WD.

 

[m80drvr]

Yeah me!!! Career expectation, what is this and just what does it really mean? I expect to have a job for the next 20yrs, I expect to be paid for the quailty work that I deliver, I expect to move on to the left seat someday. I expect, I expect, I EXPECT!!!! You may expect to bed Heather Locklear, I know I do but will that happen?? Hell no!!! So this thing about expectation is nothing more than hope!!! I hope we all survive and come out well...

WD.

I could not have said it better

 

[NorskAir]

Folks, why bicker and bitch about something you have no control over. If you are going to be pissed about off this merger and the seniority integration you are going to have a long and miserable career.
Just look at the NWA/ Republic folks, they are still at odds over this, and some of these guys are retired. Put that energy into making the new US Airways a great successful company.

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

well put norskair, and I do agree with you on some twadude...

 

[m80drvr]

Folks, why bicker and bitch about something you have no control over. If you are going to be pissed about off this merger and the seniority integration you are going to have a long and miserable career.
Just look at the NWA/ Republic folks, they are still at odds over this, and some of these guys are retired. Put that energy into making the new US Airways a great successful company.

Good one!!!!!!!!!

 

[PHXFLYR]

airways was never weeks away from liquidation, your an idiot if you think that md80drvr

And the only reason why is that they closed the multi-milllion dollar deal with Air Wisconsin for DIP financing,allowing them to become a USAir Express carrier. USAir's financial position was so precarious that they had to merge the 2 airlines Sept 29 rather than Oct 1 as was the original plan or the old USAir would have run out of cash. Source? Doug Parker at the Mar 29th pilot brown bag lunch in CLT which I attended.

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

So the East system is responsible for twice the profit......



A350

Yes you are. Too bad you guys never had the management team to make it happen on your own. Maybe if you did, we wouldn't be merging and we could have gone our own seperate ways...Now THAT would have been nice.


PHXFLYR

 

[BeCareful!]

Yes you are. Too bad you guys never had the management team to make it happen on your own. Maybe if you did, we wouldn't be merging and we could have gone our own seperate ways...Now THAT would have been nice.


PHXFLYR

Well, US Airways certainly made money in the 1990's all on their own. They came upon hard times, just like UAL, AA, NWA, DAL, etc....

The management teams brought in after Wolf and Gangwal certainly seemed to have motives other than stand alone success. That's pretty clear to anyone who watched it closely.

So, I agree PHX that it would have been nice for the airlines to remain separate, but what did Doug say about AWA's prospects outside of consolidation? I think he said they weren't too good.

Why don't you guys just get happy? You're right in the middle of an aviation success story but you can't stop wishing that it was different.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Yes you are. Too bad you guys never had the management team to make it happen on your own. Maybe if you did, we wouldn't be merging and we could have gone our own seperate ways...Now THAT would have been nice.


PHXFLYR

Ohh!! too much hot sauce in that one for me:laugh: !!!!

I guess I have to start calling you capt now huh?? It's about time, you've been holding up the show. Congrats brother!!!

WD.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Well, US Airways certainly made money in the 1990's all on their own. They came upon hard times, just like UAL, AA, NWA, DAL, etc....

The management teams brought in after Wolf and Gangwal certainly seemed to have motives other than stand alone success. That's pretty clear to anyone who watched it closely.

So, I agree PHX that it would have been nice for the airlines to remain separate, but what did Doug say about AWA's prospects outside of consolidation? I think he said they weren't too good.

Why don't you guys just get happy? You're right in the middle of an aviation success story but you can't stop wishing that it was different.

I don't put any stock into what Parker has to say. He's nothing more than a BS artist,pure and simple who is letting his ego get the best of him. Therefore, I do not believe for one second his claim that without the merger our prospects were bleak.I mean if ATA could get Chapter 11 exit financing and they are only half the size they once were, I feel that someone would have been crazy enough to invest in AWA had the same thing happened to us. Regarding the "aviation sucess story", I think the only one that this thing has been a "success" for is Parker and his stock options. It certainly hasn't been us.

PHXFLYR

 

[BeCareful!]

I don't put any stock into what Parker has to say. He's nothing more than a BS artist,pure and simple ......


I mean if ATA could get Chapter 11 exit financing and they are only half the size they once were, .......


Regarding the "aviation success story", I think the only one that this thing has been a "success" for is Parker and his stock options. It certainly hasn't been us.

PHXFLYR

Oh, well ok.....I thought you liked and had confidence in AWA management, but I guess that was another thread or another post. Must have been some other important point you were trying to make. So, in this post you seem to liken Parker to Stephen Wolf. That's not good.

SO, if AWA were half it's size and looking for money, that would be better than being the new US Airways? Wow, that's bizarre.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Oh, well ok.....I thought you liked and had confidence in AWA management, but I guess that was another thread or another post. Must have been some other important point you were trying to make. So, in this post you seem to liken Parker to Stephen Wolf. That's not good.

SO, if AWA were half it's size and looking for money, that would be better than being the new US Airways? Wow, that's bizarre.

You seem to be having a bit of a comprehension problem with my post.Either that or you tipped back a few before responding. I cited ATA being able to get exit financing from Chap 11 being half their former size, not AWA.You sure like twisting words around. Regarding confidence in Parker,again you're wrong. ( Don't you ever get tired of that??)While I do give him credit for doing a reasonably fair job of salvaging what was left of AWA after the previous management regime left, I always suspected he was in it for himself and his merry band of henchmen in the corporate boardroom. His recent cashing in of his stock options seems to prove this.

PHXFLYR

 

[NuGuy]

Just look at the NWA/ Republic folks, they are still at odds over this, and some of these guys are retired. Put that energy into making the new US Airways a great successful company.

True, but they are a source of a huge amount of hilarity for the Bluebookers...its sort of a perverse amusement to see them going at each other...like a cockfight.

Feathers get ruffled, there's some loud screeching and clucking, and they go at it and you get to watch the feathers fly. As far as intelligent discourse from either group, it's on the same level as a cockfight there as well. Just a buch of yammering in a language you don't understand while you sit and wonder what all the fuss is about.

Nu

 

[Soulfly]

UsAir was 2-3 weeks away from being non existant. Fact. No company. No seniority list. No problem. This is fact folks. From many sources.

Now this question is, do we repeat history or learn from it. From the U MEC they have apparently learned not a danged thing. The 190 arbitration, they want 100% of the seats. This will be a real fun place to work at, with attitudes like that. What a joke. Good thing my fleet is planned to remain separate. Thank GOD.......