Delta Requesting Pilot Talks to Cut Cost

[NYRANGERS]

You guys are so hung up with your own insecuities you can' t see what the General is trying to say.

Why is it that the ONLY group of people Delta is trying to extort concessions from is the only group that has a contract? We are in a battle over FM, not to mention while they ask us for concessions they are in Washington trying to decimate ALL of our collective abilities to negotiate.

It would seem very self defeating to give concessions now and try to uphold some semblance of our contract after McCain/Lott.

Management is just trying to uphold their resposibility to exploit every opportunity they can. We are just trying to take a slow and informed response.

If Delta is sucessfull in their attack on our CBA, I say to you......................stand by for incomming. However I hope you will stand strong.

NYR

NYR3 panthers1

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Maxx Power..

My comments are directed towards where the industry is heading as related to the attitudes of the past towards "the little guys"..

As for how much of what i stated will come to pass.

Its only a matter of time and economics..

Thank you for your corrections.

Mike

 

[sleepy]

Well General, one of the first lessions I learned is that life is not always fair.

 

[Midnight Mike]

Ground pounder here, legally, the Delta pilots are correct, they have a contract. Morally, they have an obligation to assist the company in its moment of need.

If the Delta pilots do help out the company, make sure the media knows what a bunch of angels you are......

 

[canyonblue]

Why is it that the ONLY group of people Delta is trying to extort concessions from is the only group that has a contract? We are in a battle over FM, not to mention while they ask us for concessions they are in Washington trying to decimate ALL of our collective abilities to negotiate.

Ah yea, it's called Big Daddy Delta showing the NON-Union folks that this is what happens when you join a union. Why do you think the Delta F/A's are the highest paid in the industry? Delta will gladly pay out to keep AFA or any other union off the property. By NOT joining a union these people have trusted that Delta would take care of them in hard times. I would expect Delta to honor that bond by targeting you guys first or what good is it for them to NOT have a union.

 

[SWA/FO]

Everyone should do everthing in their power to help out those Delta mainline pilots. I do not think they could get by with any pay cut.

After all, they are the highest paid and with that no furlough clause within the contract (as good as gold) we as an industry must hold on to that. If they give into Management they will in fact "be ruining the industy".

Why don't you guys have a sick-out / slowdown to protest? Show them you mean business!

Let me have it!!!

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

OUCH!!!

Mike

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Someday (perhaps after we take cuts), more pilots will realize that the only reason that they are paid as well as they are is because those who came before them did not give in to every mgt demand. Those people will also realize that when the benchmark of pilot pay is lowered, every other airline will lower theirs as well, or lose their ability to compete based on costs. Just as a rising tide lifts all boats, a falling tide sinks them all. One would think that more pilots would be rooting for us to "hold the line," but apparently it is more fun to root against us. Unfortunately, some of those pilots who are laughing may soon find themselves as the highest paid. Of course, they would then HAVE to give concessions, as it has become obvious to me through the helpful members of this board that no one should be the highest paid.

Actually, I hope that the above predictions never comes to fruition, though it seems many are actually hoping for it. I hope that they have taken some time out of their merry-making to consider the ramifications. It does not appear that they have.

 

[rjcap]

fdj,

What do you think of DALPA's refusal to meet with mgmt regarding cost cuts ???

Is this a smart move politically ??

Wlill this send the wrong message if the media runs with this ??

I am very curious as to the strategy here. If there is one.

Your comments and insights are welcome.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

If you read the press release, you will notice that DALPA did not refuse concessions outright. Instead, they indicated that "meeting for discussions" was not the proper way to address this issue. We have a contract, and therefore don't have any obligation to open up negotiations at this time. However, if the company has a definite business plan with a rational proposal, ALPA expressed willingness to consider their proposal and respond in kind. However, meeting for negotiations on our contract is not appropriate.

As I have said before, perhaps concessions are needed, and if they are, we will give. We have done so in the past, and we are not so stupid as to kill the company out of a sense of pride or stubborness. Before we do so, however, certain factors must be considered. Simply meeting for contract negotiations while we alread have a contract does not address those factors. If mgt presents us with a proposal, we will consider it. Perhaps then, negotiations could begin.

Will the media misinterpret this? Almost assuradly. Should that fact force us to abandon a well thought out response? I don't think that it should.

Plus, with the amount of stalling mgt did with the last contract, as well as during the FM grievance process, it kind of warms my heart to see us turn the tables a little bit! We showed an operational profit in the last quarter, our liquidity is good, and we were cash neutral. The company, while it is not exactly healthy, is not in immediate peril either, and a careful and methodical approach is appropriate.

If you are interested, below is the actual response from our MEC. I hope that it explains their stance better than I did.



Item one. Today, Delta senior management sent a letter to the MEC leadership requesting a meeting on February 19 to discuss possible modifications to the pilot contract. Further, CFO Michele Burns today announced to a transportation conference that management "will be coming" to the Delta pilots "to discuss our contract, in the light of the environment in which we find ourselves." We have advised senior management that a meeting at this time for the stated purpose is not appropriate. Since we have a contract that is not amendable until 2005, management cannot initiate discussions for modifications without a specific proposal and specific detailed justification. If such a proposal is made, ALPA will follow its longstanding structured, methodical process we have for responding. Under this process, we will analyze the company's financial projections and plans for a return to profitability, followed by a decision by the Delta MEC whether to engage in negotiations and provide direction, and then negotiate, but only if appropriate. This process allows time for membership input, and for MEC review and decision-making.

 

[sleepy]

Everyone should do everthing in their power to help out those Delta mainline pilots. I do not think they could get by with any pay cut.

After all, they are the highest paid and with that no furlough clause within the contract (as good as gold) we as an industry must hold on to that. If they give into Management they will in fact "be ruining the industy".

Why don't you guys have a sick-out / slowdown to protest? Show them you mean business!

Let me have it!!!

They are protesting, they don't turn their logo lights on at night any longer. I'm sure that management is scared now.

 

[canyonblue]

One would think that more pilots would be rooting for us to "hold the line," but apparently it is more fun to root against us.

Hell no, I'm rooting for you guys to hold the line. My wife is at Northwest where it seems the company is also starting up with the "we need the money" crap. Have they applied for a Govt. loan? NO, Have they reduced the payroll at the top? NO. I say don't come talking to my wife until you have used up EVERY option available, and not just the ones that MGT deem suitable. With the Govt plan and Bankruptcy there is then a BIG spotlight on CEO compensation as well as corporate spending. The F/A's at United took a 9% pay cut in Bankruptcy, the F/A's at Northwest took a bigger cut than that from '93-'96 with a wage freeze included. I have already told my wife to "hold the line" and try your luck with another means before you give those SOB's any more of your money.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Canyon,

I'm glad that you seem to get it. Some of your co-workers certainly do not, if previous posts are any indication.

Good luck to your wife.

 

[Networ-King]

Hey SWA FO,

Why dont you IM me your name..... Then I'll go and check Plato's list of guys that wanted to come over to Delta even from you precious Southwest. There is a list of typical Dic_heads like you that wanted to come to one of the hub and spoke carriers and because of 9/11 your smacking your lips with a lot of BS. Yeah.... you might be employed right now...... but you still a Dic_head. I dont want to get anything started with SWA or JB or Airtran pilots, but before 9/11 people were leaving all three airlines to get to UAL, AMR, DAL, NWA, CAL, and US Air. Now our Shi_ smells like roses and you make coments like you do. I'll bet any amount of money that your name is on Plato's list so go fu*& yourself.

You asked for it.... well you got it. RICHARD

 

[rapidD]

Networ-king

Right on the money, dude. It never ceases to amaze me that the guys at SWA, JB, and even the regionals don't realize that "WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!" They puff their chests out, brag about their successes, and take joy in other guys misery. They have jobs and some of us DAL, AA, UAL guys don't, so they're cool and we suck. Well, in a nutshell, if anybody across the industry takes pay cuts it means less pay potential for all of us. If the majors take it on the chin, in the long run, all aviators will. You think the guys at SWA or JB are going to get significant pay raises when the industry standard comes down? Not a chance in hell. Some folks have such a small picture. Thank God there are those can see past their own nose.

rapidD
(furloughed but **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** happy to have a DAL seniority number)

 

[SWA/FO]

Whoa~!

My comments were in response to General Lee's talk about commuter guys giving into wage cuts.

I guess that comment about sick-out / slow down was way out of line.

I never said Delta s*cked. I like Delta. I applied to DAL. While conducting my job search I was targeting 4 airlines. My quest was about stability. Delta, Fed Ex, Southwest and UPS.

Networ-king,

I have never wanted to come to Delta once I was at SWA. I was on the list to interview prior to that. They never called.

Heck, I applied everywhere. Its kind of like this: you might not get into Harvard but your going to college.

So don't take my advice. Relax a bit. I'm not happy at your expense.

Chill~

 

[Networ-King]

SWA FO,

If you go back and read most of my posts, you'll see that Im pretty much a level headed guy and I keep things as realistic as possible. The fact that alot of guys that never made it to "their" dream airline (whichever one that may be), are now taking it out on the guys that did by dragging the majors through the mud. We have overpaid CEO's that already do that for us. Your post could be misunerdstood and I guess that's why I wrote what I wrote. In my class alone at DAL .... I had 2 AMR, 1UAL, 1FEDEX (poor bastar)and 1 SWA guy. I know 3 people that left JB in early 2001 to go to DAL and AMR and now they are on the street. But at that time almost everybody in this profession would have made the same choices except for a few, such as yourself. It'll be interesting to see what happens WHEN, not IF, WHEN the majors start hiring again. And as far as the General goes........ well he means no harm, I wish I had some of his optimisim, but all he's doing is defending his company and I see nothing wrong with that. For what its worth I apologize for snapping at you like that, but it was a misunderstanding and I hope there are no hard feeling when I ask for the jumpseat! That is, when I can jumpseat again.

 

[Palerider957]

....are we part of Delta or not??? It seems the only time mainline pilots want anything to do with regional guys is when they need something. Pay cuts?!?! Who the F@@K thinks a regional guy can afford a PAYCUT?!?! You mainline guys are out of control, we work MUCH harder (more days, more hours, more short-calls, more extentions) than you ever dreamed...and we should take a pay cut?

I can remember when we talked about merging seniority lists, the mainline guys screamed "THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING" and effectively killed that...so be it. It's clear you don't consider us a part of Delta, so DON'T expect us to take it on the chin, especially when we are PROFITABLE.

Our Pres. told us "these are hard time, we're going to have to tighten our belts..." Tighten our belts!!! We work HARD, fly a lot, for a pittance, while our company is having a RECORD year of profits (granted Delta takes that money and loses it super fast).

You mainline guys snub us in the airports, and generally look down your nose at "scooter trash." What do you want from us??? I mean really, what do you expect from regional guys struggling to make ends meat??

We are NOT the enemy, we DO want to be at the mainline someday---but please, we are not just toilet paper for Delta pilots to wipe their a$$ with.

flame away.......

 

[Networ-King]

Palerider,

Look your generalizing when you say you Mainline pilots. I have done the commuter thing and know how hard you work and how little you get paid. I think the current wages you guys get paid is a concession in itself. FO's and Captains. Are you a part of Delta? Yes you are. Should you take pay cuts? No I don't think so. This is a tough time for the whole industry and management is pinning us against each other as usual. While I worked at Eagle there were lots of lifers there that thought they should be 767 captains at American if the seniority lists were merged, but I knew better and got the hell out. Same concept with Comair and ASA..... its not the 95% of you guys out there that would love a single seniority list, that are the problem.... its the 5% that think they are owed the world. I had captains at Eagle that bitched all the time about not getting hired by the majors and yet when I asked them if they had an app in and if they would take the pay cut would they do it.... and all but one said that they wouldn't. All Im trying to say is, don't go yelling at mainline pilots thinking that we're all against you. And I know what you mean about being treated like a red headed step child at the airport by mainline pilots..... AMR pilots did that to us at Eagle all the time.... Im not saying all AMR pilots did that.... just the ones I ran into when I was in uniform. And believe me .... you are way better off that DAL and DCI are not one list right now, cause you would be on the street right now. You'll get alot of different point of views on this forum and the Alpa forums...... just don't go burning all of us at the stake, there are some good guys out there that came from where your sitting right now and on your side. Hope some day there is a single list, but with our management I highly doubt it.

 

[Palerider957]

Networ-king:

Deep down I know you're right, I guess there's just a very high frustration level in the industry right now. The paycut post sent me ballistic as I try to figure out how to pay all my bills this month. (the 4 beers I've had didn't help either).

I KNOW the Eagle guys put up with bucnh of S$$T, it think they are amongst the most abused in the industry. I don't know what the right answers are, I wish pilots could stand shoulder to shoulder and demand a professional salary for professional work. I think that's a long way off, however.

As for merging lists, I never saw that as a reality--it just seemed to problematic. There's been talk of ASA/Comair merging lists, that's probably a fantasy (or nightmare) as well. I think the system will probably stay as it is, with management playing us off against each other--successfully.

I think the prospect of going to a major is pretty much dead for quite some time, so regional guys are going to have to push hard for the best deal they can.....this is only going to fuel the RJDC and hard-nosed contract negotiations. Few of us had intentionsof being lifers at a regional, but now the're may be little choice.........