Delta Requesting Pilot Talks to Cut Cost

[greg20]

From Reuters, but a decent read regardless:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030212/bs_nm/airlines_delta_pilots_dc_1


NEW YORK (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines' (NYSEAL - news) Chief Financial Officer Michelle Burns said the airline will approach its pilots on Wednesday with a request to open talks on their current contract, as Delta works to offset weak revenue by cutting costs.



"We will today notify pilots that we will be coming to them to discuss out contract, in the light of the environment in which we find ourselves," Burns said in a presentation at the Deutsche Bank 2003 Transportation Conference.


Atlanta-based Delta has already cut about $320 million a year through headcount reductions, and trimmed a total of more than $900 million a year by adding in process and efficiency improvements, Burns said.


As travel demand and airfares continue to sag, workers have increasingly been asked to sacrifice wages and benefits to lighten airlines' cost loads. Employees are expected to account for about half the total cost cuts at both AMR Corp.'s (NYSE:AMR - news) American Airlines and US Airways Group, (OTC BB:UAWGQ.OB - news) while employees at UAL Corp.'s (NYSE:UAL - news) United Airlines have taken $70 million per month in temporary wage cuts.


Delta's pilots, whose current contract runs until May 2005, are not required to open discussions over cost-cutting with the airline, Burns said. Pilots are the only major unionized group at Delta

 

[General Lee]

This is very interesting, although not unexpected. They are asking us to take cuts, even though over 1060 of our pilots took 100% paycuts, and many many more were displaced to smaller equipment and lost pay that way. Leo Mullin did take a 10% pay cut along with some of the other execs, but said none of the 50,000 or so NON-union employees had to take any pay cuts---only the Unionized pilots. How about Comair pilots (since many many of them have gotten raises by all of the recent upgrading to Capt etc..) or ASA pilots? Leo didn't say anything about that, and Leo and the other execs get HUGE bonuses and stock options, and the execs even got "retention bonuses" this year, the year we lost so much money. Can't the board of directors just reinstate their pay on a whim? Yes they can. What happened when we asked Leo just shortly after he took office when we were doing so well if we could have some of our vacation time back? He said, " A contract is a contract." Hmmmmm.

I am sure in the end we will give something back, Dalpa has a way of doing that sometimes. But, if we do, it will all have a snapback and Leo and Co. will have to say NO to baseball style arbitration in the future (the John McCain bill etc...). I want this company to succeed, and I feel fortunate to be here. But, no one should take advantage of another---and a snapback only seems fair, right? During good times again, shouldn't we get back what we legally fought for and won? Let's get back our furloughs (atleast have a concrete recall over a length of time) and then it will be easier to talk about this. Again, ask yourself this question:
Why wouldn't Leo ask for pay cuts from the 50,000 or so NON union (no contract..) employees, the Comair and ASA employees, and only the Mainline pilots? Hmmmmm.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CRJFlyer]

To sum it up, at $18,000 a year I CAN'T AFFORD A PAY CUT...Dude, With a $450 student loan bill, a $267 car payment, car insurance, gas, food, credit card bills, gym memberships, airport parking passes, beer money etc.....I'd say out of the 1500 a month I bring home, about 1200 is towards bills and such....yup you guessed it..I STILL HAVE TO LIVE AT HOME....

So in conclusion think before you speak...I understand the logistics in renegotiating contracts and such... And I can understand you feeling that because Comair and ASA are part of the same company we should all get paycuts...but think about this..IF WE ARE ALL PART OF THE SAME COMPANY THEN WHY DO YOU MAKE WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH MORE THAN I DO FOR DOING BASICALLY THE SAME JOB???

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be at mainline making as much as you....But at probably 200K a year I can safely bet that you could afford a pay cut worth as much as I make a year...So please eat a little cheese with that whine...and think about me still living at home....

 

[MsFan]

Join the Crowd

I think every major network carrier is going for concessions now. They've cut all the costs they can without touching wages, so this is the next step.

Bend over boys, here it comes.

 

[sleepy]

To sum it up, at $18,000 a year I CAN'T AFFORD A PAY CUT...Dude, With a $450 student loan bill, a $267 car payment, car insurance, gas, food, credit card bills, gym memberships, airport parking passes, beer money etc.....I'd say out of the 1500 a month I bring home, about 1200 is towards bills and such....yup you guessed it..I STILL HAVE TO LIVE AT HOME....

So in conclusion think before you speak...I understand the logistics in renegotiating contracts and such... And I can understand you feeling that because Comair and ASA are part of the same company we should all get paycuts...but think about this..IF WE ARE ALL PART OF THE SAME COMPANY THEN WHY DO YOU MAKE WHO KNOWS HOW MUCH MORE THAN I DO FOR DOING BASICALLY THE SAME JOB???

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be at mainline making as much as you....But at probably 200K a year I can safely bet that you could afford a pay cut worth as much as I make a year...So please eat a little cheese with that whine...and think about me still living at home....

I see several areas where you can cut your expenses to help DAL out. You don't need a gym membership (do push-ups in your cardboard box, yes you are going to have to become homeless and live in a box or dumpster); no more car, you can take the bus (sell that car and donate the proceeds to the DALPA furloughed pilots fund); as far as food goes, you will just have to beg. Maybe a DAL pilot will help you out with some spare change.

I am not asking you to sacrifice alone, I will be selling my wife and daughter into white slavery to help the company out in these difficult times.

 

[General Lee]

Finally Sleepy comes up with a good idea. Thanks for contributing.

CRJFlyer,

Well, a lot of people have been exactly where you are----like me. I only made $12,000 my first year at a regional. It was embarrassing looking at the Flight Attendant's paycheck and seeing she was making more than me. And now you are making a whopping $18,000 a year. And you the other 50,000 employees at ASA/Comair and Delta just want the mainline pilots and Leo to chip in? Give me a break! What do you think about snapbacks if we do give some back? Do you think we should get the money back in better times? Delta doesn't. There is the sham. It is all a lie. I can see giving up some money now, but what about when good times return, and they will---especially for Delta. Management has struck gold with all of this----time to get labor costs under control. So, if you can't live on a paycheck with a 5% paycut to help out mother Delta, then you need to cut back on some beer or something. Think about the 1060 guys on Furlough---you make a lot more than them on unemployment.
(And by the way, I don't make even close to $200,000 a year)

MSFan,

Yes, other majors are asking for cuts also. But, Delta is not in the same postition as them. Yes, we have lost some money, especially with all of the "1 time charges" they have added. They are running out of them. And, we only have 1 union---the pilots. We have what is called a "Contract." None of the other employees have one, which should make it easy to cut their pay--since a Contract is a Contract. But no, Leo doesn't want to cut any of the other 50,000 people's wages---only the Union's. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you? If we were really hurting, I would think that Leo would give everyone a 5% or a 10% cut in wages and say, "Hey, we need to conserve now...." American just asked for $1.8 billion from ALL of it's employees. Delta doesn't have the same magnitude of problems. Yes, I do see that we need to compete, and maybe some sort of cuts may be needed, but always with snapbacks---and management probably won't agree to that---which shows their plan--to cut back on labor expenses---permanently--forever---get it???? Instead of complaining about how much Delta pilots make, why don't you embrace it. When I initially heard about our payscales and how much a pilot could make here, I said to myself, "God Bless America."

Sleepy,

Instead of thinking that we "super rich" Delta pilots are after you at ASA/Comair, why don't you contribute a little, just like us, to help out Mother Delta? Are you against contributing? Have you been displaced 3 times to different aircraft, losing money along the way? Have you watched your friends get furloughed, losing 100% of their pay? Yeah, we really are "super rich" and we watch what is going on and just laugh!! What? We have suffered more than you, and we will still probably take a pay cut. But you guys would not be eligible for cuts because Why? I thought some of your senior guys made nearly $100,000. Can they get a pay cut?
Do you see the double standard? IF we take cuts, everyone should take a cut---and any sized cut would do. We aren't going to take a 2% cut while you take a 50% cut. We all work for mama D, and if we take a cut---everyone should. (Selling your wife and kid to slavery is optional)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

General,

I had a pretty good job a few years back, but was furloughed and ended up at ASA. I am glad to have a job doing what I love to do.

I am not completely opposed to discussing pay concessions with management. I would look at this as an excellent opportunity to obtain 100% control over DCI flying for ASA and Comair in exchange for a temporary pay concession.

The only thing is, we are not over-paid relative to our peers in the industry (so called regionals). In fact, ASA could pay each of our pilots $200 per hour for the whole year (at the 75 hour per month basic guarantee), and still only cost one quarter of profits.
If you look at the industry, your pilot group is the only one that is over-paid in relation to your peers.

I don't think you (DALPA) should give management a penny in concessions without something in return.

 

[CRJFlyer]

general,

Just for the record I have been furloughed, thats how i ended up at comair..And trust me working data entry for $7 an hour is no fun. Especially when people there thought you were actually doing data entry because you liked it...how many times did I hear "Every year we get a .25 raise. I'm in my twelth year and I'm up to 9 an hour. Keep working hard and you'll make it here.By the way what did you do before data entry?" Uh I flew airplanes mam!! "why would you switch to this?" she asks..Um, mam..I just really like data entry...

And also I almost can guarantee that a Delta pilot on unemployment is making atleast as much as I am per week. Heck when a buddy i worked with was furloughed from the same airline he was making as much as me. And we made less than we do at Comair.

And the fact that people made even less than I do back when they were at a regional has no bearing at all on how much I should make now. That low pay and the fact that pilots were willing to work for that little is a testiment to what is wrong with regional pilot payscales today. And the even sadder fact is that there are flight instructors out there who would take my job for less than 12K per year now.

In conclusion, it won't be a good thing if or when Delta pilots have to take a pay cut. But expecting people like ramp agents or even lowly regional F.O's to also take the cut is hard to swallow. Put it in perspective Take whatever salary you make per year and reduce that by a percentage. Now take 18K a year or whatever a ramp agent makes and take a percentage out of that. Now imagine which you'd rather live on. Your salary or that of a ramp agent. Also think that not all regional F.O's are young, unmarried guys/gals.. Some if not most are trying to support families just like mainline guys. On alot less money. But If i could afford it I'd rather give a little back than lose my job. Just so happens I can't afford to chip in.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

it's interesting that when the subject of pay cuts is brought up that we are all one big happy DAL family.

however, bring up topics like seniority integration, flow-through, one-list, etc., and watch the door get slammed in your face.

Actually, it was we (the Delta pilots) who brought up flow-through, and the door was slammed in our fact.

Onelist and seniority integration is not DALPA's decision, and something that mgt has said on many occasions will never happen. They would spin off DCI before giving up that cost advantage...On the other hand, they never objected to a flow-through...the ASA and CMR mec did.

I am not making any judgements on whether they were right or wrong, I just want to set the record straight. Your statement was inaccurate.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey CRJ,

May I assume you live in CVG area and making 18k?

OK... a few years ago, I moved to HNL and was making about the same amount as a first year DHC-8 FO at Island Air. Now, taking cost-of-living and rent alone, you get smoked in every way since many things are more expensive here than they are in CVG.

Give you an example, I had 2 roommates, and our rent per person was just under $500. Add on the bills, and you get your 2-week check gone in just basic necessity bills. We all drove beater cars - it wasn't beneath us to drive a $500-1000 car and live close to the airport.

Food? Let me put it to you this way, everytime I go to midwest, I'm surprised to see all-you-can-eat food at dirt-cheap prices and it turns out not bad at all. No such luck here on the Islands my friend. Things are expensive, yet I managed to survive here just fine on 1st year commuter pay. Now, if I can do it in one of the most expensive states in the country, you can EASILY do it in one of the cheapest states. Heck, I'll bet you I could have even saved some cash living on the same pay if I lived in CVG instead of HNL.

You have no sympathy here - if it comes to pay cuts, it's only fair you take a cut as well.

 

[checkessential]

What? Why should I, an ASA pilot be asked by a Delta pilot to take any a pay concession of any kind? Who came up with that idea? When ASA is in dire straights, and posting losses, and management asks our MEC to negotiate such a thing, well then fine. But when a Delta pilot, part of a completely different entity, suggests that I take a wage cut for good measure, I say no way! I work for ASA, not Delta. Lets get that straight. And Comair pilots, work for Comair. That much I know. Who has the right to demand such a thing. You people are ridiculous.

 

[General Lee]

Checkessential,

First of all, you guys wouldn't be the only ones to take a cut, the mainline would obviously take one first---and give away a lot more money. I know our MEC couldn't make you take a pay cut. But remember, we are all linked together thru MAMA Delta----so it is unfair for just one unit to take the cuts for all of the others. If you can't see that, then you are the greedy one. I guess we at mainline should take the brunt for all of you, right? If MAMA Delta goes bankrupt--we all go down--not just us at mainline. If you think that you guys don't deserve a paycut an we do---well, maybe you haven't been paying attention to all of the furloughs and displacements. You have been growing and upgrading, so don't play me the sad story. All I am saying is that it isn't unreasonable for EVERYONE to take a cut--and the percentage doesn't really matter. Don't you want to help out? Do you? (By the way---our MEC just announced that they would not discuss paycuts unless there were full disclosures of financial papers, along with ability to regain profits in the future...etc) I doubt anyone is going to take a paycut until there is actual justification to do so. Apparently there was a deal made before they OK'd the codeshare deal with NW/CO that pay and workrules would stay the same. So, to end all of this---I think it is fair that everyone should share the burden IF paycuts were to happen, and that ASA/Comair pilots would take some cut---but not even close to the mainline paycut. That sounds fair, right? And who ever said that just because ASA/Comair is saving our bacon at this point, shouldn't have to take cuts---remember that Mainline and all of the profits we made in the late 90's ( a lot more that you make now) is what we are surviving on right now.

Freight Dog,

Yes, living and surviving in Honolulu sounds tough on your salary, but think how much money you save on clothes. After work you only need to wear your bathing suit, sandals, and a t-shirt. If you lived in CVG, you would have to buy big jackets, wool sweaters, long johns, big boots, etc. I'd take flying Dash-8's to Kapalua in 80 degree weather anyday. (Except for Delta)

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PA-44Typed]

First off let me say “I am an outsider” in other words I only dream about making $1800 a year to fly for a living. That’s right, I’m a Flight Instructor.

Now on to the bit#hing, Do you (insert mainline pilot god) know that $18,000 a year is BELOW the poverty line if you have a family to support. You claim not to be rich, But the audacity that you have to ask a 1st year DCI FO to take a pay cut is beyond me. Lets play with the numbers for a sec, $19.02/hour with a 75 hour guarantee = 1,428.50 take Uncle Sam’s portion and your left with a whopping $999.95. Now for sh@$ts a giggles lets say that this poor reserve FO actually gets two four day trips, so add in $201.60 for per-deem (sp?) so lets add up ALL THIS MONEY…this poor FO’s net income will be (drum roll please) is $ 1,201.55.

Sorry I had to vent…………….

 

[av8instyle]

This is so typical

I say no way! I work for ASA, not Delta. Lets get that straight.

Then what's all this crap about one company, one list? I guess I'm a little confused at the double standard as well (which is the norm for me)

Do you (insert mainline pilot god) know that $18,000 a year is BELOW the poverty line if you have a family to support.

I guess you guys are the only ones that know what it's like to have an entry level job. Do you really think that mainline guys don't remember what it's like. Believe me, it's much better now for Regional pilots than it was only a few years ago.

If you ever imagine yourself wanting a job with a Major, it's probably not a good idea to do things that jeopardize the lifestyle you eventually want. Most anyone with a civilian background that's at a Major has experienced the "entry level" pay and conditions you speak of. So really, you're preaching to the choir.

 

[CRJFlyer]

hey freight dog,


ummm, good assumption but completely wrong,

live in a white collar city in upstate NY, rent for an apartment runs around 1000 for a two bedroom plus utilities and such...i'm a commuter, everything is expensive, i don't eat at all-you-can-eat food troughs..not to mention that its 0 degrees celsius out right now and gas and electric is twice as expensive as in the summer... i could see your point if i actually did live in cincy but i don't ...and i'm not looking for sympathy, just trying to pay some bills..

 

[CRJFlyer]

av8instyle,

the whole thing is a double standard..

certain people on each side feel that the other is owed something...

who's flying is it...(Delta feels its there's and we're taking their jobs)But then again if we're the "same" company then whats the problem...(and yes i do understand the logic of how putting an rj on a route takes a mainline a/c off it)

So in that instance Delta feels they deserve the routes..and we're not part of them..

On the topic of this new pay cut thing...in this instance delta wants us to be part of them so we'll take the cut also..(well in effect only the general has voiced any opinion)so now all of a sudden we're one company..

On generals point of Comair shafting theior furloughed guys..(which i agree they should be hired at Comair) in this case Delta wants Comair/ASA to hire their guys with preferential hiring...So in effect Delta wants us to show them preferential hiring because we're "one company"...

It seems like each side wants the other side to be "one company" only when it improves the conditions of each respective company..

I do want the lifestyle of a pilot..oh wait, i have it with out the really good pay..i'd be happy to do this job for just the amount of money that it takes to survive normally.Of course 100K plus a year is great..but if it takes me making say 80K a year and keep my job I would gladly do it...its alot more than my parents make, 18K is hard to live on and i'm sure making less back a couple of years was even worse..then again I wouldn't do this job if i didn't make atleats enough to eat..and to those that would do it for say 12K a year, good for them but I wouldn't..

the average salary for a pilot is just over 99K a year, thats #10 on the list behind doctors and maybe engineers...with all of us 18K a year guys here on one side who's making the rest to get that average up...

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Call it a weakness but i just cant leave this one alone..Sorry..

The thing that makes me madd as he!! about this whole deal is i can remember very well in the not to distant past that most of the "majors" would have nothing to do with a commuter carrier even if it was painted the same and was flying their schedules..

Flow thru was unheard of and in many cases they just wouldnt hire from "their' commuter ever..Just wouldnt do it at all..

Now...All of a sudden the big boys are in trouble and they need a way to cut costs and find a way to keep their main line pilots working..Now we have reverse flow thru and the Captains that couldnt get hired at "their"major are being bumped down by the guys from momma up above..

Now all of a sudden the whole idea of one senority list and Jets for Jobs is just great with managment and we all can live happily ever after..

Mark my words..Those of you that are doing well like ASA and ACA ect ect better watch your backs..

You may well end up being sent home without so much as a kiss when better times return to momma and they forget what a nice bastard red headed step child you guys were as they tell you that wet stuff running down your back is rain..

Been there done that with the tee shirt and post cards to prove it..

Mike

 

[General Lee]

This is all getting way out of hand. I am NOT trying to be the "greedy" Delta pilot asking others for money while I keep all of mine. Come on, I was just saying that only one group taking all of the cuts is not fair. Would we take most of the cuts? Sure. I just don't think only the UNIONIZED pilots should take the cuts (along with the better paid execs)--and 50,000 other people who never signed a contract ( a contract that said by the way that the airline would not furlough due to the economy or unprofitability of the company-----the pax stopped being scared to fly 1 year ago, but Delta continued to furlough....) don't have to contribute. Can't you see this? We are the only ones with a contract and we get screwed. Where is Johney Cochran when we need him?

I will be the first one to tell you that ASA/Comair pilots don't make enough money-----and I flew the regionals too and was paid crap for years. How about a 1% paycut? Is that too much for you? I am sure we would take a much larger one, but atleast you are contributing. Do you see what I mean? I know you work hard and make squat----but contributing counts. Now I know that right now Dalpa is refusing to contribute without seeing the "books." I still think when it comes down to it, we might help out---which might be needed---but with snapbacks. I am in no way asking you all for cuts---I am just saying that we at mainline should not be the only ones singled out for cuts when the "survival" of our company comes down to it. I don't want Delta to fail, and I want everyone to make a great wage---especially Regional pilots---and even flight instrutors. (I made $10.00 an hour for 4 years as a flight instructor---and enjoyed McDonalds and Wendy's every night)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Russ]

Gen Lee is pitching a bitc* about taking a paycut when his portion of the company is losing billions. Given that do you think he would accept a paycut if ASA was the one losing money? My belief is no, but you all can draw your own conclusions. Perhaps years ago the world rotated around mainline, but the gravitational pull is weakening. Many of us are gonna be at our current jobs and seats for a career, or at the least a long time. My duty is to make my life for my family as best I can. I am not going to give the farm to D in the hopes I will make it there.
There is alot more fat to cut out of a 767 FO's pay than a RJ's. Who there Gen. will feel a 10% cut more?

Some are contributing, they are hiring your guys on the street. It doesn't have to be framed in dollars.

 

[Maxx Power]

MLBWINGBORN,
Just to correct a couple of things. In the case of reverse flow throughs there are not Captains who could not get hired by their major being bumped down. Yes guys are being bumped down, but they had been moving up due to the flow through before this all went down the tubes. If a flow through/flow back is in place the Captains had been flowing up to their major. They were not unable to get hired by their major as you put it.

And as to the onlist being ok now by mgmt. the only one I know of even talking about it is AA and it looks more like a flow through. At Delta mgmt. says no way and I remember CAL's guy saying something like "that will never happen as long as I'm here."

I'm just pointing things out. Not trying to start a fight. I also read an RJ guy talking about how he already has the pilot lifestyle just not the pay. If you fly for an RJ airline you do not have the same lifestyle as a guy at a major. I know, I have been on both sides of the fence. Four 121 pax airlines (I can't seem to hold down a job.) A contract at a major is not just about pay, but it is also about the work rules. Just one of many examples but at my old jobs I had a 1 or 2 hour callout on reserve. At my major job when I was on reserve, on most days I had a 12 hour callout. I'm not bashing RJ flying. Any flying job beats working. I'm just saying it is not just about pay that separates the two types of contracts. Hopefully one day we can close the gaps in all areas of the contracts, not just pay. Also I hope we can all do this more by the RJ contracts coming up to a higher standard and not the other way around. Snapback is my word of the day.

Anyway we are all in this together. Fly safe and keep the light on for me.