Delta: Pilots' Strike Is 'Murder-Suicide'

[pilotyip]

The LLC’s are profitable, that is the wave of the future. Management knows that. If you do not adapt to that model, you go out of business. 125K/yr is going to be the pay of the future unless you have a specialty company like moving boxes.

 

[800Dog]

The LLC’s are profitable, that is the wave of the future. Management knows that. If you do not adapt to that model, you go out of business. 125K/yr is going to be the pay of the future unless you have a specialty company like moving boxes.

You may want to take a look at LUV payrates.

 

[LJDRVR]

Do you care how much firefighters/police officers in your community are paid?
Do you care how much school teachers in your community are paid?

Are you willing to pay more in taxes so that these folks can make a reasonable living that is commensurate with the responsibility of their jobs?

Do you care that children in 3rd world sweatshops make 10cents an hour so that you can have cheap clothes/electronics at Walmart/Target/BestBuy?

It's funny how pilots get all upset when customers aren't willing to pay more for their services. Yet, how many pilots are willing to pay a premium for all the goods and services they buy/use?

Thanks for the civics leson, Medflyer!

To answer your questions, yes I do care about those folks salaries, and pay quite a bit of property tax and homeowners fees so that they do earn a commensurate living. (I'm happy to do so.)

In regards to your question concerning our trade deficit and third world working conditions, yes I do care. I don't have time this afternoon to even begin addressing that one, but rest assured I'm slowly trying to move my family away from a life of consumerism to a more simple existance of growing and eating our own food.

You bring up an excellent point though. The same guy that complains about having to talk to somebody in Bombay when his computer is broke, would most likely be up in arms about the high cost of PC's if tech support was a call center in say, Austin TX.

I stand by my original comments. The ruling class executives involved with this are eventually going to pay the price. Unfortunately, the rest of us are going to also.

 

[LJDRVR]

Read Flying the Line. Lorenzo is banned from the aviation industry for a reason.

I read em' both, I & II. I also read Grounded by Aron Bernstien and Borman's autobiography, Countdown.

To paraphrase you, you stated the Eastern mechanics did not flush it down the toilet. I contend that they did. Charlie Bryan's obstinance, meglomania, lust for for power and lack of mental health were singlehandedly responsible for the sale of EAL to Lorenzo. I think we're splitting hairs here. (I agree with you, Lorenzo was the hatchet man.) I simply offer up the IAM as an example of how not to run your union. Those guys are as guilty as Lorenzo.

 

[Green]

The LLC’s are profitable, that is the wave of the future. Management knows that. If you do not adapt to that model, you go out of business. 125K/yr is going to be the pay of the future unless you have a specialty company like moving boxes.

are you talking fo wages? The biggest LCC of them all, SWA, 1st year captain 168/hour. Top captain 190/hour. You're a ways off there...

 

[Falconjet]

The problem is that SW is now the exception and leading the pax pack, instead of being the low end of the norm. The bar has definitely come down when SW and jB are the leaders in pay in the pax world.

FJ

 

[800Dog]

I read em' both, I & II. I also read Grounded by Aron Bernstien and Borman's autobiography, Countdown.

To paraphrase you, you stated the Eastern mechanics did not flush it down the toilet. I contend that they did. Charlie Bryan's obstinance, meglomania, lust for for power and lack of mental health were singlehandedly responsible for the sale of EAL to Lorenzo. I think we're splitting hairs here. (I agree with you, Lorenzo was the hatchet man.) I simply offer up the IAM as an example of how not to run your union. Those guys are as guilty as Lorenzo.

We will have to agree to disagree. Can you explain why Lorenzo was/is banned by the DOT from having anything to do with the airline industry? What he did was illegal and I do not think the mechanics were responsible for Eastern's demise. If the IAM was as guilty as Lorenzo, then why were they not punished by Congress/DOT like Lorenzo was. They simply said enough is enough and exercised their legal right to strike.

 

[MajorAv8r]

Do you care how much firefighters/police officers in your community are paid?
Do you care how much school teachers in your community are paid?

Are you willing to pay more in taxes so that these folks can make a reasonable living that is commensurate with the responsibility of their jobs?

Do you care that children in 3rd world sweatshops make 10cents an hour so that you can have cheap clothes/electronics at Walmart/Target/BestBuy?

It's funny how pilots get all upset when customers aren't willing to pay more for their services. Yet, how many pilots are willing to pay a premium for all the goods and services they buy/use?

However: When the cost of fuel rises, Target WILL increase it's prices to compensate, NOT ask the cashier to take a pay cut. Hell my garbage co. is going up $2/month to compensate for increase in gas, not asking the guy on the back of the truck to give the company money.

I accept the LCC competition for payrates. But I REFUSE to accept benefit reductions due to increasing costs. DAL mgt repeatedly mentions fuel as the reason employees will have to take it up the butt.

 

[B777]

If we don't stand up and stick together now, then the airlines will keep on lowering the bar. This is total BS. You have Delta managers who have mismanaged the airline for 4 years and they are finally getting the clue that they can't keep on loosing billions after billions each quarter and the pilots have to answer for it. If Delta pilots take the airline down, then they are doing it for a better future for ALL of us, so we should be thanking them for standing up to management.

So now a 777 captain at Delta flying international flights wil be paid the same as a 737 Captain at SW flying a 737 domestically? Where do we draw the line?

 

[Draginass]

As long as that 777 Captain shows up for work at $125 an hour, that's what he's worth.

That's why a regional copilot is worth $30k a year.

The CEOs know this and know that they can dictate just about any conditions they want to right now . . . . and the pilots will show up for work. Witness US Air and UAL, and soon to be NWA, DAL, and AA next year.

 

[pilotyip]

Since you mentioned it.

I wasn't thinking of SWA. I was thinking of Jet Blue, Air Tran, Spirit, etc. But since you mention it $190/hr is not much more than the $175/hr for the top Captain at UAL. Or much more than the USA Jet top Captain of $175/hr. But the $250/hr is a thing of the past in the pax flying business. This is still a great career where else can a high scholl grad pretty well plan on making a $100K/yr by the time they are in their mid-30's

 

[800Dog]

I wasn't thinking of SWA. I was thinking of Jet Blue, Air Tran, Spirit, etc. But since you mention it $190/hr is not much more than the $175/hr for the top Captain at UAL. Or much more than the USA Jet top Captain of $175/hr. But the $250/hr is a thing of the past in the pax flying business. This is still a great career where else can a high scholl grad pretty well plan on making a $100K/yr by the time they are in their mid-30's

This statement, rest assured, will upset some but, here it goes. Part of our problem is that high school grads are doing this job. How many high school grads are CPAs, Attorneys, CFPs or Doctors? High school grads lower the bar for the piloting profession. They have lower expectations than those with more education. We should make the requirements more stringent to enter this profession. A college degree does not make one smarter than another but, it is a hurdle required by most legitimate and respected professions. I plan on leaving this industry as I feel there is more out there for me to obtain professionally. Grade school kids can put together a more gramatically coherent post than the above. Fire away.

 

[Spooky 1]

I doubt that there are any pilots without a college degree at Delta within the last twenty-five years, so how do you explain that?

 

[FN FAL]

Another observation......many young people got into aviation because it was a career. It has quickly become a job. When the supply of new recruits dwindles, we will get more labor traction.

A350

You don't need a cooter, to see the airline employment recruiter...United is hiring 1,000 stewardesses and stewardmen. It was in the news the other day.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I doubt that there are any pilots without a college degree at Delta within the last twenty-five years, so how do you explain that?

I know several. Ex-PAA and Western.

 

[Spooky 1]

I know several. Ex-PAA and Western.

I should'a been more exact. Don't know about the DAL/PAA guys but I flew for PAA without a degree and I am also a WAL guy, and yes, I failed to get a college education, so your probably correct. I was speaking to the Delta requirements during the past twenty-five years. For that matter, WAL,DAL,PAA,AA,TWA,UAL all pretty much required a college degree for the last twenty-five+ years. Might have been a few exceptions but they were darn few. I actually know a recently retired DAL 777 Capt. that ran away from home at age fouteen to work on a fishing boat out of Juneau, joined the AF and got his GED, flew for PNA out of SEA and when they merged with WAL in 1967 checked out as Capt. on the L188 when he was 23 years old and went on to be an excellent line check airman on just about all of the aircraft that he flew. College is great, but not a qualifier for airmanship, just for getting hired in the first place. I didn't make the rules, just tried to get around them!

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I hear ya!!

 

[lostplnetairman]

This statement, rest assured, will upset some but, here it goes. Part of our problem is that high school grads are doing this job. How many high school grads are CPAs, Attorneys, CFPs or Doctors? High school grads lower the bar for the piloting profession. They have lower expectations than those with more education. We should make the requirements more stringent to enter this profession. A college degree does not make one smarter than another but, it is a hurdle required by most legitimate and respected professions. I plan on leaving this industry as I feel there is more out there for me to obtain professionally. Grade school kids can put together a more gramatically coherent post than the above. Fire away.

Very true. But the Supreme Court in the landmark case of Griggs v Duke Power held that arbitrary requirements cause adverse impact. SO, why is it necessary for a pilot to have a college degree? Many senior pilots today do not! They can do the job. What is the bonafide reason for having a degree? That is what the courts will review.

I'm putting this out for serious discussion. If you guys want to bash me as happened in a recent discussion, I'm gone!

HR Diva

 

[800Dog]

Very true. But the Supreme Court in the landmark case of Griggs v Duke Power held that arbitrary requirements cause adverse impact. SO, why is it necessary for a pilot to have a college degree? Many senior pilots today do not! They can do the job. What is the bonafide reason for having a degree? That is what the courts will review.

I'm putting this out for serious discussion. If you guys want to bash me as happened in a recent discussion, I'm gone!

HR Diva

Valid question. Why should a college degree be required to go to medical school, dental school, to become a CPA or CFP? College does not make one smarter. It is hurdle to clear when moving on to bigger and better things in life. If we want high school grads flying for airlines that is fine. Just don't expect a career as an airline pilot to be anything more than that of a bus driver, plumber, cop, car salesman etc. Nothing wrong with those jobs at all. Pilots just need to lower their expectations as far as pay is concerned. Best of luck to all.

 

[General Lee]

It all comes down to this. We know there will be some pay cuts, but the rest of the gutting of the contract is ridiculous. We won't stand for it. This is not a grab bag. They already took $1 billion a year from us last December when Gerry said "do it once, do it right." We can give some more pay, and maybe some rules, but not everything, and not scope. It will be interesting.


Bye Bye--General Lee