Delta: Pilots' Strike Is 'Murder-Suicide'

[Peardc10]

Fight another day!

Its sad to see what this industry has turned into, pay is eroding, benefits are diminishing, pensions are going away or reduced. I wanted an airline career and ended up with a job. I really hope this industry turns around, for the pilots, mechanics, and anyone involved in this crazy industry.

I respect the Delta pilots for trying to maintain the dignity of their profession, pay, retirement, etc. In these tough times though its Russian Roulette (employees vs. Mgmt).

I lost my flying job a few years back and you know what.......IT SUCKED!!! Being on the opposite end of the sprectrum really makes you think about the big picture, whats really important - Family! I agree with a previous post that its important to take the pain now, and fight another day. I'm sure DW, and all his krogies, will fight to the death for you...........not. I am always trying to find a plan B in case there is no plan A anymore. I do wish pilots would band together and fight these mgmt pukes, and tell them where to stick it...........in a dream world though..............maybe someday........

I wish the best to the Delta Pilots and families, these are tough times, tough decisions are coming fast. Good Luck!!!

My 5cents worth,

 

[A350]

All:

I see a theme to this thread that I believe is a common misconception about this business.

The airline business is a deregulated (mostly) cutthroat business. When times were good, there was more than enough passengers and money to go around.

Today we have many airlines competing for more and more passengers, but the revenue side has changed. Many of you blame managements. I do in most cases, and in all cases I think they are a bunch of overpaid blowholes. We generally aren't dealing with Lorenzo type management here. We are dealing with management that has watched their business platforms disintegrate under their feet.

Go back in time a few years. Can ANYONE look forward and see U, UAL, NWAC, and DAL in BK, let alone the others? No way. Auntie Paula will get that $79 ticket to FLL. The government considers the airline deregulation experiment a great success. No doubt, labor has been kicked in the teeth. These are facts that cannot be ignored.

I would love to make more money.....that is universal. But if my company cannot afford to stay in business, there is only one way. Fuel and labor are the two biggies. Since they can't control fuel to a large degree, labor gets the whip.

Another observation......many young people got into aviation because it was a career. It has quickly become a job. When the supply of new recruits dwindles, we will get more labor traction.

A350

 

[mnboyev]

Yeah... I drool when I sleep ... I admit it. It must be from the 5 legs a day.

We compete for the same folks in ATL. Kinda.... Well ... not really. Heaven help us if the Orange Belly Money Makers show up in force.

Good Luck to all Delta Aviators. Time will pass and ya'll be back on top of the world in no time. Suck it up. Heck, Ya might even want to throw a wave towards one of us AirTran or ASA fellas... Most feel for the position your in right now.

Sincerely, the pilot profession needs to dig in a bit... If we stick together and not allow ourselves to be divided, we all might get to retire with some prosperity. Or, we may end up like the poor NWA Mechs.... Out sourced !

????

 

[MedFlyer]

Nobody cares as long as they keep reducing those dreaded labor costs and Aunt Sally can fly to Fort Lauderdale for seventy-nine bucks.

Their day of reckoning is coming.

Do you care how much firefighters/police officers in your community are paid?
Do you care how much school teachers in your community are paid?

Are you willing to pay more in taxes so that these folks can make a reasonable living that is commensurate with the responsibility of their jobs?

Do you care that children in 3rd world sweatshops make 10cents an hour so that you can have cheap clothes/electronics at Walmart/Target/BestBuy?

It's funny how pilots get all upset when customers aren't willing to pay more for their services. Yet, how many pilots are willing to pay a premium for all the goods and services they buy/use?

 

[Lawman]

Do you care how much firefighters/police officers in your community are paid?
Do you care how much school teachers in your community are paid?

Are you willing to pay more in taxes so that these folks can make a reasonable living that is commensurate with the responsibility of their jobs?

Do you care that children in 3rd world sweatshops make 10cents an hour so that you can have cheap clothes/electronics at Walmart/Target/BestBuy?

It's funny how pilots get all upset when customers aren't willing to pay more for their services. Yet, how many pilots are willing to pay a premium for all the goods and services they buy/use?

MedFlyer: Good point. You don't really think of those things when you feel you are being kicked in the butt. Having been through Chapter 11 with a previous employer, it is very hard to think of anything other than, "What is gonna happen to my job and my family". It's on your mind all day long, everyday of the week.

 

[Publishers]

We live in a society where a good many think that it is an unalienable right to own a third car, a vacation home, a boat, and a TV screen the size of a football stadium. We are not an empathetic group but live in such a self centered world, we cannot see that many around us suffer.
This storm, like most, is temporary. The effects will be there for some time but for the most part, life in this industry is still better than most.

 

[indiglo]

the delta pilots must do what is right for them. If I were a Delta pilot, I'd advocated the strike for this reason; sooner or later, you have to stand up to the bully. If not you'll never get any respect.

Completely regardless for "the profession", I'd walk just to force resolution NOW. If Delta is poorly managed, they'll under eventually regardless of pilot pay. If they are well managed, the threat of a strike will force them to find a different way to run their business.

Look at history, how many pilot groups have taken concessions over the last four years? How many of those groups have gained any respect by doing so? Take NWA for example, they stood up to the AMFA (and for management) and now management shows their thanks by demanding concessions from the very same employee group that saved their bacon last summer.

The managers like Steenland, Ornstein, Grinstein, (am I seeing a Steen pattern here), etc, will hose the pilots. Period.

Ether stand up now, or forever tuck your tail. I'd rather put up with some cube than to continue to allow the Steenlands of the world to own me. Screw the money.

 

[indiglo]

I can't get back to my improper spelling to edit it out.

I meant to say that poorly managed companies will GO under, and either is spelled either.

sorry

 

[Publishers]

There is no question that management might have done things differently, but that does not tell the whole story and it is easy for someone not vested to make the " go on strike" statements when they do not have what the others do. The industry has changed, it will continue to change, and, from the perspective of pilots may never get back to what they percieve was the correct way of doing things.
One cannot minimize the effect of deregulation, one cannot minimize fuel costs, one cannot minimize internet accessibility, and, all the other aspects of the business that have changed. There are no winners and losers here. There is a new business.

 

[Widow's Son]

The ugly reality is that we need an airline to go away for the benefit of the rest of us. If Delta wants to volunteer, God bless them.

 

[pilotyip]

The LLC’s are profitable, that is the wave of the future. Management knows that. If you do not adapt to that model, you go out of business. 125K/yr is going to be the pay of the future unless you have a specialty company like moving boxes.

 

[800Dog]

The LLC’s are profitable, that is the wave of the future. Management knows that. If you do not adapt to that model, you go out of business. 125K/yr is going to be the pay of the future unless you have a specialty company like moving boxes.

You may want to take a look at LUV payrates.

 

[LJDRVR]

Do you care how much firefighters/police officers in your community are paid?
Do you care how much school teachers in your community are paid?

Are you willing to pay more in taxes so that these folks can make a reasonable living that is commensurate with the responsibility of their jobs?

Do you care that children in 3rd world sweatshops make 10cents an hour so that you can have cheap clothes/electronics at Walmart/Target/BestBuy?

It's funny how pilots get all upset when customers aren't willing to pay more for their services. Yet, how many pilots are willing to pay a premium for all the goods and services they buy/use?

Thanks for the civics leson, Medflyer!

To answer your questions, yes I do care about those folks salaries, and pay quite a bit of property tax and homeowners fees so that they do earn a commensurate living. (I'm happy to do so.)

In regards to your question concerning our trade deficit and third world working conditions, yes I do care. I don't have time this afternoon to even begin addressing that one, but rest assured I'm slowly trying to move my family away from a life of consumerism to a more simple existance of growing and eating our own food.

You bring up an excellent point though. The same guy that complains about having to talk to somebody in Bombay when his computer is broke, would most likely be up in arms about the high cost of PC's if tech support was a call center in say, Austin TX.

I stand by my original comments. The ruling class executives involved with this are eventually going to pay the price. Unfortunately, the rest of us are going to also.

 

[LJDRVR]

Read Flying the Line. Lorenzo is banned from the aviation industry for a reason.

I read em' both, I & II. I also read Grounded by Aron Bernstien and Borman's autobiography, Countdown.

To paraphrase you, you stated the Eastern mechanics did not flush it down the toilet. I contend that they did. Charlie Bryan's obstinance, meglomania, lust for for power and lack of mental health were singlehandedly responsible for the sale of EAL to Lorenzo. I think we're splitting hairs here. (I agree with you, Lorenzo was the hatchet man.) I simply offer up the IAM as an example of how not to run your union. Those guys are as guilty as Lorenzo.

 

[Green]

The LLC’s are profitable, that is the wave of the future. Management knows that. If you do not adapt to that model, you go out of business. 125K/yr is going to be the pay of the future unless you have a specialty company like moving boxes.

are you talking fo wages? The biggest LCC of them all, SWA, 1st year captain 168/hour. Top captain 190/hour. You're a ways off there...

 

[Falconjet]

The problem is that SW is now the exception and leading the pax pack, instead of being the low end of the norm. The bar has definitely come down when SW and jB are the leaders in pay in the pax world.

FJ

 

[800Dog]

I read em' both, I & II. I also read Grounded by Aron Bernstien and Borman's autobiography, Countdown.

To paraphrase you, you stated the Eastern mechanics did not flush it down the toilet. I contend that they did. Charlie Bryan's obstinance, meglomania, lust for for power and lack of mental health were singlehandedly responsible for the sale of EAL to Lorenzo. I think we're splitting hairs here. (I agree with you, Lorenzo was the hatchet man.) I simply offer up the IAM as an example of how not to run your union. Those guys are as guilty as Lorenzo.

We will have to agree to disagree. Can you explain why Lorenzo was/is banned by the DOT from having anything to do with the airline industry? What he did was illegal and I do not think the mechanics were responsible for Eastern's demise. If the IAM was as guilty as Lorenzo, then why were they not punished by Congress/DOT like Lorenzo was. They simply said enough is enough and exercised their legal right to strike.

 

[MajorAv8r]

Do you care how much firefighters/police officers in your community are paid?
Do you care how much school teachers in your community are paid?

Are you willing to pay more in taxes so that these folks can make a reasonable living that is commensurate with the responsibility of their jobs?

Do you care that children in 3rd world sweatshops make 10cents an hour so that you can have cheap clothes/electronics at Walmart/Target/BestBuy?

It's funny how pilots get all upset when customers aren't willing to pay more for their services. Yet, how many pilots are willing to pay a premium for all the goods and services they buy/use?

However: When the cost of fuel rises, Target WILL increase it's prices to compensate, NOT ask the cashier to take a pay cut. Hell my garbage co. is going up $2/month to compensate for increase in gas, not asking the guy on the back of the truck to give the company money.

I accept the LCC competition for payrates. But I REFUSE to accept benefit reductions due to increasing costs. DAL mgt repeatedly mentions fuel as the reason employees will have to take it up the butt.

 

[B777]

If we don't stand up and stick together now, then the airlines will keep on lowering the bar. This is total BS. You have Delta managers who have mismanaged the airline for 4 years and they are finally getting the clue that they can't keep on loosing billions after billions each quarter and the pilots have to answer for it. If Delta pilots take the airline down, then they are doing it for a better future for ALL of us, so we should be thanking them for standing up to management.

So now a 777 captain at Delta flying international flights wil be paid the same as a 737 Captain at SW flying a 737 domestically? Where do we draw the line?

 

[Draginass]

As long as that 777 Captain shows up for work at $125 an hour, that's what he's worth.

That's why a regional copilot is worth $30k a year.

The CEOs know this and know that they can dictate just about any conditions they want to right now . . . . and the pilots will show up for work. Witness US Air and UAL, and soon to be NWA, DAL, and AA next year.

 

[pilotyip]

Since you mentioned it.

I wasn't thinking of SWA. I was thinking of Jet Blue, Air Tran, Spirit, etc. But since you mention it $190/hr is not much more than the $175/hr for the top Captain at UAL. Or much more than the USA Jet top Captain of $175/hr. But the $250/hr is a thing of the past in the pax flying business. This is still a great career where else can a high scholl grad pretty well plan on making a $100K/yr by the time they are in their mid-30's

 

[800Dog]

I wasn't thinking of SWA. I was thinking of Jet Blue, Air Tran, Spirit, etc. But since you mention it $190/hr is not much more than the $175/hr for the top Captain at UAL. Or much more than the USA Jet top Captain of $175/hr. But the $250/hr is a thing of the past in the pax flying business. This is still a great career where else can a high scholl grad pretty well plan on making a $100K/yr by the time they are in their mid-30's

This statement, rest assured, will upset some but, here it goes. Part of our problem is that high school grads are doing this job. How many high school grads are CPAs, Attorneys, CFPs or Doctors? High school grads lower the bar for the piloting profession. They have lower expectations than those with more education. We should make the requirements more stringent to enter this profession. A college degree does not make one smarter than another but, it is a hurdle required by most legitimate and respected professions. I plan on leaving this industry as I feel there is more out there for me to obtain professionally. Grade school kids can put together a more gramatically coherent post than the above. Fire away.

 

[Spooky 1]

I doubt that there are any pilots without a college degree at Delta within the last twenty-five years, so how do you explain that?

 

[FN FAL]

Another observation......many young people got into aviation because it was a career. It has quickly become a job. When the supply of new recruits dwindles, we will get more labor traction.

A350

You don't need a cooter, to see the airline employment recruiter...United is hiring 1,000 stewardesses and stewardmen. It was in the news the other day.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I doubt that there are any pilots without a college degree at Delta within the last twenty-five years, so how do you explain that?

I know several. Ex-PAA and Western.

 

[Spooky 1]

I know several. Ex-PAA and Western.

I should'a been more exact. Don't know about the DAL/PAA guys but I flew for PAA without a degree and I am also a WAL guy, and yes, I failed to get a college education, so your probably correct. I was speaking to the Delta requirements during the past twenty-five years. For that matter, WAL,DAL,PAA,AA,TWA,UAL all pretty much required a college degree for the last twenty-five+ years. Might have been a few exceptions but they were darn few. I actually know a recently retired DAL 777 Capt. that ran away from home at age fouteen to work on a fishing boat out of Juneau, joined the AF and got his GED, flew for PNA out of SEA and when they merged with WAL in 1967 checked out as Capt. on the L188 when he was 23 years old and went on to be an excellent line check airman on just about all of the aircraft that he flew. College is great, but not a qualifier for airmanship, just for getting hired in the first place. I didn't make the rules, just tried to get around them!

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I hear ya!!

 

[lostplnetairman]

This statement, rest assured, will upset some but, here it goes. Part of our problem is that high school grads are doing this job. How many high school grads are CPAs, Attorneys, CFPs or Doctors? High school grads lower the bar for the piloting profession. They have lower expectations than those with more education. We should make the requirements more stringent to enter this profession. A college degree does not make one smarter than another but, it is a hurdle required by most legitimate and respected professions. I plan on leaving this industry as I feel there is more out there for me to obtain professionally. Grade school kids can put together a more gramatically coherent post than the above. Fire away.

Very true. But the Supreme Court in the landmark case of Griggs v Duke Power held that arbitrary requirements cause adverse impact. SO, why is it necessary for a pilot to have a college degree? Many senior pilots today do not! They can do the job. What is the bonafide reason for having a degree? That is what the courts will review.

I'm putting this out for serious discussion. If you guys want to bash me as happened in a recent discussion, I'm gone!

HR Diva

 

[800Dog]

Very true. But the Supreme Court in the landmark case of Griggs v Duke Power held that arbitrary requirements cause adverse impact. SO, why is it necessary for a pilot to have a college degree? Many senior pilots today do not! They can do the job. What is the bonafide reason for having a degree? That is what the courts will review.

I'm putting this out for serious discussion. If you guys want to bash me as happened in a recent discussion, I'm gone!

HR Diva

Valid question. Why should a college degree be required to go to medical school, dental school, to become a CPA or CFP? College does not make one smarter. It is hurdle to clear when moving on to bigger and better things in life. If we want high school grads flying for airlines that is fine. Just don't expect a career as an airline pilot to be anything more than that of a bus driver, plumber, cop, car salesman etc. Nothing wrong with those jobs at all. Pilots just need to lower their expectations as far as pay is concerned. Best of luck to all.

 

[General Lee]

It all comes down to this. We know there will be some pay cuts, but the rest of the gutting of the contract is ridiculous. We won't stand for it. This is not a grab bag. They already took $1 billion a year from us last December when Gerry said "do it once, do it right." We can give some more pay, and maybe some rules, but not everything, and not scope. It will be interesting.


Bye Bye--General Lee