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Delta Pilot's Pay Raise (part 1)

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Part 8

The Honeymoon Window



The honeymoon window of opportunity that naturally accompanied Jerry's arrival is shrinking - even with all the good things said, actions taken, and initial positive impression many feel. He has further changes in the works which should be welcome, but the circle remains broken until the deal with the pilots is consummated.



The fear is that all of Jerry's efforts to turn the tide go no where without the pilots on board. When I look at what he has said and done since January 1st, it is encouraging to see leadership emerging from the front office. But leadership without trust and mutual cooperation won't allow us to shift out of first gear.





ALPA's Initiatives - Last Year and Present



Again, to be fair, ALPA put last May's pay raise (4.5% in 2003) on the table in January of 2003. At the same time, or shortly thereafter, the Executive bonuses became public knowledge and all hell broke lose.

My guess is: at the time, better than 75% of the pilots felt the 2003 pay raise should also have been rescinded, but after the SERP issue became red hot, it would have been impossible for ALPA to get the votes needed to give back the raise last year.

The current pay raise of 4.5% is part of ALPA's proposed concessions - combined with a reduction in salary of 9% - for a total of 13.5%. From the company's side this is not nearly enough to make a meaningful difference. The 13.5% equates to less than $300 million. ALPA has other pieces on the table that equate to more concessions and efficiencies, but it still isn't enough and both sides know it.

Jerry's point is we need more immediate help if we expect to be competitive and turn the corner. To piecemeal it step by step doesn't get us there. I understand his position and why - especially if you or I were running the business - trying to pay off debt and regain profitability.



The counter argument is, "Hey, we've been trying to give them money for two years and no one will take our offers." This is what makes the pilots skeptical and suspicious about the company's true intentions. This is how talk of Chapter 11 as a "strategy" gets mileage.

It's also likely the other employees don't realize how much the pilots - via ALPA - have helped the company since 9/11 by granting waivers and side letters on issues like SILs, bow wave, monthly caps, bank provisions, and overtime flying. New agreements on the CRAF and MAC flying during/after the Iraq war also took a cooperative effort from ALPA.

Some of the reps like former Chairman Will Buergey and Lee Moak may never get the credit they deserve for work done behind the scenes to help the company between 9/11 and the time they relinquished control to the current MEC. Much of the cooperative effort that occurred since 9/11 was crafted and accomplished by these folks and others still on the MEC in the spirit of what was "the right thing to do" for both sides. We need that to continue, not stall.

Other important long-term initiatives like the code share agreement with NWA/CAL don't just happen without ALPA's concurrence. The hard work required is soon forgotten. These and similar efforts show the pilots, via their elected reps in the union, have been willing, to step up and be counted when needed - which usually benefits all of us from top to bottom.

These efforts show how both sides share a "win-win" when adjustments to the contract are made which make sense and accomplish the mission when the environment shifts in ways that can't be anticipated.

Public companies do not purposely go into bankruptcy. They have a fiduciary and legal responsibility to their shareholders. But when the company won't accept any offerings for the past couple years, you wonder if they understand the time value of money already lost.

Now Jerry is here - trying to fix it - and the bite of the apple required has grown larger. This makes him - the messenger - look like the real bad guy - when in truth, I think he is the first one who has the cojones to tell us what we need to survive and thrive again.



The board didn't listen to him two years ago. Now they have to. There are few, if any, other choices - given the nature of the beast. But ultimately, ALPA is holding their ground because these concessions should be negotiated - not dictated.



Why don't we use this opportunity as a fresh springboard to get the whole deal worked out - including concessions? Most appear ready to get it done and move on. We know we are going to hit our thumb with a hammer but we're afraid to stick our hand out and get it over with.

We know cuts are coming. Why not let the healing process begin sooner? Otherwise the pain is going to be far deeper. The longer we wait the more painful the cuts will be and the more bodies we'll see on the street - especially if we force the company to reduce the number of hubs, aircraft, and block hours - to save money.



Delta flew the highest block hour months it has ever flown in 2001 - in the months prior to 9/11. It was at that point, combined with the bubble in the U. S. economy and the stock market that Delta was starting to realize they had hired 1000 pilots too many. The reduction in the non-contract workforce had already begun and culminated with 16,000 employees getting pink slips or offers to retire early.



There are approximately 1100 pilots between the ages of 55-60. As they retire it will help bring back furloughed pilots, but it would also help if we would get our act together, get competitive, and start growing the airline instead of shrinking - particularly with the big jets.



As we all know, but no one wants to talk about - the biggest savings for any company is when you reduce the size of the workforce and do the same job more efficiently with less bodies. We can whisper and skirt the issue all day long, but this is the cold hard truth. Without growth, our furloughed pilots will be on the street even longer. And we can't grow if we don't get competitive on costs first.



One interesting side note of trivia was pointed out recently. Of the major European cities that people around the world find most attractive, Delta only serves 75% directly. That looks like opportunity knocking - in light of the fact nearly 80 million baby boomers in the U.S. are starting to retire and travel more. Berlin, Prague, Hamburg, Lisbon, Stockholm, Vienna, Budapest, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Caribbean, South America? Don't the numerals 767 and 777 roll off the tongue nicely?
 
Part 9

The Numbers - Where Is the Disconnect?

Here's where folks keep scratching their heads. How can there be such a disparity between what the company says they need and ALPA's financial needs analysis?

It seems like the two sides aren't even discussing the same company. If it comes down to a philosophical difference in the size of the cuts needed - then ALPA may be leading us down a perilous path. It will not be good enough to enable the company to borrow even more money at ever higher rates.

Our increasing debt load will crush us under the weight of its ballooning burden. Let's not falter in the same manner we are watching our brothers at ALPA struggle with the facts at United and USAir or APA at American.

The company's view is we need to take the hard medicine now. As Jerry has said - we've had a heart attack and need a stent - not just aspirin. Their reasoning is many good things can happen if we get our cost structure down.

The value of the stock starts to rise again as we regain favor with both Wall Street and other investors. We regain access to capital markets at much lower rates of borrowing. We are able to finance growth at a reasonable cost. Profit sharing can become a reality instead of a pipedream.



Company's request - $830 million ($750 million + May pay raise of $80 million)

ALPA's offer - somewhere between $350 - 450 million (9% + 4.5% May raise + work rules/benefits)

ALPA's offer on the table has been hard to nail down since I don't have access to the confidential numbers. When these guys sign confidentiality agreements, they mean it. The numbers used above are a best guess as to what has been offered.



What's necessary? - No one really knows but it's possibly the whole $830 million.

What's reasonable as a first bite? $600-650 million. Any family needs time to adjust and many pilots will take an even bigger hit by sliding backwards.



Why won't the company take at least a 70-80% deal to get the ball rolling and then come back to the pilots if they need more? It will be no surprise if that becomes necessary, so I no longer believe the argument which says it must be all or nothing in one shot.

This pilot group is very capable of doing what's necessary. If that takes two bites of the apple - they'll do it for job security and to maintain control of their fate. Pilots do not like to be out of control - another trait our passengers appreciate.



What does it take to give back $600-650 million? There are numerous paths - and it will hurt some more than others. But the alternative of bankruptcy and job losses isn't acceptable either. One route is a 20-25% pay cut, raise the cap to 80 hours, modify the work rules, reduce vacation pay, reduce the 401k match to 2%, raise the medical premiums, and fly the entire fleet more efficiently, more often - each day/night.



What if the company needs $200 million more on top of that? It would require an additional 10% pay cut or fewer bodies to fly the same block hours.

There may be some slop in these numbers depending on which side is doing the valuation, but these days, the valuation of each item has been generally agreed to by both sides and is simply a matter of changing a number in the laptop spreadsheet and pressing "Enter".

The company is asking for close to $830 million. Given our debt load and balance sheet status, is there anyone who believes 13.5% is enough to help turn the corner?



The Milestone Partners Group is based out of Washington, D.C. They assisted ALPA's internal team (headed by Ms. Anna Schulz at ALPA National) with the Economic and Financial Analysis (E & FA). The analysis is now a year old. ALPA is reviewing the latest numbers again in this month (April) with Michele Burn's team.

Originally, Milestone advised our union leaders in order for Delta to gain access the capital markets again; the pilot's contribution would have to be more than there is on the table now. If that was the guidance offered, why is ALPA still appear low with their current offer?

For every 5% the pilots give back, it equals about $100 million in savings for the company. Thus, a 30% cut in wages equals a $600 million dollar savings for the company. The rest of the package the company is trying to achieve would come in the form of work rules and benefits changes to the tune of another $230 million if they got every dollar they are asking for.

Where would this place the Delta pilots compared with their peers in the industry? Still in the top percentile for pay and benefits of all pilots in the industry. Add profit sharing, reasonably priced stock options ($8-10) to the mix and it could be surprising how well the picture might look 2-3 years from now.

Or we could be sucking wind (I know - that's what jets do), have only 5000 pilots on the property, and be flying a much lower number of block hours. We hold our own fate in our hands.





What's the Right Thing to Do? -- Social Contract with Fellow Employees



Someone once said "ethics is doing the right thing when nobody's looking."

It seems disingenuous to hide behind ALPA since we - the pilots - are ALPA. We - the pilots - have an opportunity to show true gutsy leadership. In many ways at Delta, we have another contract which is just as important as the PWA (Pilot Working Agreement). And that is the social contract we share with our fellow employees. Both contracts add great value to our lifelong careers at Delta, whether some appreciate it or not.

A number of pilots I've spoken with agree that accepting the pay raise is potentially divisive. A smaller group is still very militant - but that number has declined over the past 12 months. The silent majority understand the marketplace, the analysts, investors, and the credit rating agencies - can't all be wrong. Now it's just a matter of time before reality hits the blue envelope.


There is a small number who refuse to accept we have a real problem - or want to believe the company is either lying or bluffing. Same thing happened at United. Their pilot Forum had a handful of folks with limited information who were the most vocal and adamant. Then reality came knocking in the form of a vote.

The UAL pilot group voted overwhelmingly (90%) to accept concessions ($450 million) in favor of keeping their jobs. Where else were they going to go? Same with USAir. Where else are airline pilots going to go with over 9000 pilots currently on the street - able and willing to learn to fly any airplane available?

In case we've forgotten, in the United case, the bankruptcy judge took another $700 million in wage and benefit cuts for a total of $1.1 billion out of the current UAL pilot contract. Has anyone talked with those guys? They're flying 90 hours a month for 40-50% less pay. At American they carved out approximately $2 billion in concessions from their employees - both pilot and non-pilot combined.

While we're looking at United, let's ask another fair question - where were ALPA reps when it came to doing an economic and financial analysis? And if one was done, how far off were they from what was truly needed? Don't United's pilots and their ALPA reps have the same concerns we have at Delta? Were some in denial there, too?

Until we have more folks on the street by judge's order or see our W2's reduced inline with the rest of the industry it is very tough to have a reasonable discussion with the naysayer group. Our black hats will cast an even darker shadow from those folks and you will find other employees just shake their heads in disbelief.

Times like this determine whether the pilots can be counted on to be leaders. Those who refuse to believe the depth of our problems or fail to take the initiative to help the company that feeds them are hoping beyond hope it magically gets better.

The May pay raise of 4.5% equals $80 million annually. (The SERP was originally tagged at $65 million). That's $80 million our company can't afford right now. That's $80 million more in the wrong column on the balance sheet. That's $80 million being subsidized by sacrifices our other employees have already made with changes to their retirement plan, higher medical premiums, work rule changes, new sick leave policies, and 16,000 layoffs.

Accepting an additional $80 million does not help the families of pilots on furlough. It doesn't help pay off an airplane. It doesn't give us cash required to compete head to head with the competition. It doesn't help fund pension plans. It doesn't help keep our medical premiums from rising even higher. It doesn't help pay for high cost fuel. Accepting another $80 million doesn't send any positive message - but it could - if it was put in escrow and used for something besides lining our pockets further.




"Each time we make a decision it is determined by either good or evil forces, respectively, which are dominant."

-- Erich Fromm, from the book, "Man For Himself"
 
Part 10

Become That Which We Loathe?



Why allow ourselves to become what we loathe?



We were visibly angry at upper management for accepting the SERP. And rightfully so. We insisted they could have - and should have - stopped it. We've all said we'd have more respect and trust towards them if they had stopped it. Every employee was unified in these feelings across all departments, cubicles, and cockpits. We all asked, "How could they be so blind and insensitive?"



So I ask all of us to consider - Where is the same anger and disbelief among the pilot group when the tables are turned? The money is now going to flow into our pockets. Is there honestly any perceived difference in the bottom line between the two scenarios?

We will be accepting additional compensation when we know the company is in trouble and needs our help. It doesn't matter what justification may exist for the additional compensation. Just like it didn't matter when senior management tried to justify the SERP.



Some have suggested we may as well take the money now and we're better off in bankruptcy because then everyone shares the pain, and it's not just the pilots who are giving concessions. This sort of thinking highlights shallow thought processes and a great misunderstanding of what bankruptcy can do to a company's soul across every stratum.



Are the laws of physics stopping ALPA from rescinding the May pay raise? Is there any criminal or civil law that says ALPA can't halt the pay raise? Are pay issues exempt from side letters? Doesn't a handshake count for anything in our culture anymore?

We talk vehemently in strong terms about maintaining Captain's authority and how we want to be given the respect our leadership position should command. Yet when it comes to true leadership during what is probably the toughest time Delta has ever faced - where are our leaders? How can we ever earn unwavering respect if we don't lead by example?

There is no argument we can defend that makes us any better than other greedy mongers in the U.S. who accept compensation when the organization they work for is hurting. We have a fragile balance sheet. It would seem prudent not to inflict any further hardship on the company our livelihood and future job security depend upon.



"Most of the things we decide are not what we know to be best. We say yes, merely because we are driven into a corner and must say something."

-- Dr. Frank Crane





On the heels of management accepting the SERP, is our acceptance of more dollars at this juncture more noble or deserved? Are our actions any different than theirs? By saying or doing nothing aren't we giving tacit approval to the same greed we've relentlessly condemned the past 12 months?



I can't think of any good reason to accept or promote selfishness. Regardless of the excuses some will pose I don't believe there is any justifiable reason that holds water or allows each of us to look in the mirror. How do we consider ourselves as leaders when the chips are down everywhere else in our company?





"Some persons are very decisive when it comes to avoiding important decisions."

-- Brendan Francis


Is Goodwill Dead?



The goodwill and respect that would come from rescinding the May pay raise is immeasurable. Some say the good deed would soon be forgotten by most. I disagree. Sometimes we only get one chance to make the correct decision at the fork in the road. That doesn't mean you have to keep getting credit for it during each subsequent issue that arises.

We might consider moving beyond rescinding the raise and use this opportunity to craft a more meaningful concession package. We know we need more than 13.5% to turn the Mothership in the right direction and regain a competitive posture. So why can't we get there? It would seem no excuse is quite good enough to allow the situation to deteriorate beyond repair.



If you agree we should forego the May pay raise, send John and your reps a note with your comments; or if you don't agree, tell them. Maybe if our ALPA leadership receives enough input, they can take action to indicate the pilots are trying to help the company. We've always been counted on to step up and do the right thing. Why not now?



Since only 25% of eligible voters (896 of 3539) in the latest Council 44 election voted, I'm not making any assumptions anyone will make the effort to look up their ALPA reps e-mail addresses or phone number. They are both provided below for easy access.

In the same spirit of providing our ALPA reps e-mail addresses and phone numbers below, it is only fair that you be able to contact me directly as well with any comments, suggestions, criticism, or questions at anytime:

[email protected]

ALPA Offices Toll Free: 800-872-2572
Atlanta: 404-763-4925



(ALPA reps email addresses and phone numbers deleted from forwarded email. Ken)





Conclusion


You can accomplish anything in life you truly want to.
 
The preceding 10 part message was written by a Delta pilot. I posted parts 1-6, then for some reason I couldn't post anymore. It might have been an anti-spam filter, or just my computer. Later I was able to post the rest of the message(parts 7-10). I offer it only as information. I am hearing that this is now the "silent majority" at Delta.
 
Inclusivescope,

I think I know who wrote this, and this guy is getting slammed by everyone. He has his own agenda. I do think everyone knows that we should take pay cuts---and Dalpa is watching this carefully. Remember, if Grinstein really really needs the cash now---he has the flexibility to do it with most of the other employees. He probably will get concessions from us---especially if his future "plan" does NOT include extra RJs---well, maybe a small number of 70 seaters might do---but that is it. I can see why you might be nervous.

Bye Bye--General Lee;)
 
General Lee said:
Inclusivescope,

I think I know who wrote this, and this guy is getting slammed by everyone. He has his own agenda. I do think everyone knows that we should take pay cuts---and Dalpa is watching this carefully. Remember, if Grinstein really really needs the cash now---he has the flexibility to do it with most of the other employees. He probably will get concessions from us---especially if his future "plan" does NOT include extra RJs---well, maybe a small number of 70 seaters might do---but that is it. I can see why you might be nervous.

Bye Bye--General Lee;)


"Slammed by everyone"? I find that hard to believe. Slammed by the "vocal minority" - that I can see. Sometimes telling the truth is unpopular. This guy doesn't post as much as you General, but he is a hell of a lot smarter than you. You might learn something from him General - that is if you actually take the time to listen for a change.
 
General Lee :

If you have explained it, I've missed it. Please explain why non seniority list employees should take pay cuts to supplement Delta pilots making 65 to 70% more than the industry average.

Most folks will simply go to another employer who pays more.

Not to mention the effect this would have on employee morale - it just is not fair. Seems you would prefer your crew meals without the extra 6 hour old saliva dressing.

At least our Delta snack mix and the "surprise and delight" goodies are sealed for our own protection. Wish they would bring back the toasted almonds.

~~~^~~~

P.S. Welcome back.

P.S.S. With the "productivity enhancements" wouldn't Delta need fewer pilots? Why not do the Airtran deal, cut the guarantee to 65 hours and bring folks back?
 
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Yeah ok inclusivescope...............


A lot smarter than me? Not if you knew who he was---and I do. I continue to say that we should give pay cuts---and we all can see what is going on. How would you like to give up 44% of your contract when nobody else in the company is giving up squat because they are making "industry standard"---even though the industry standard age and longenvity is 30 years less per employee? Have you seen the average age and longevity of our average mainline stew? They are all on top pay and are in their 70's..... Figure that one out. I hope they come to a conclusion too that is beneficial---but everyone should help out---starting with us. And, if you get any more propoganda---make sure you post it too. Maybe I will write a long diatribe too (with Surplus1's help) about why you should vote for me for President of ALPA or maybe the United States of Iraq! (Fins can be Governor of the South incuding Basra, and Surplus1 can be the Mayor of Najaf)




Fins,

Obviously Dalpa would not agree to more furloughs or huge productivity gains because they have publicly called for the furlough recalls with the RPM trigger. It would be very hypocritical to then approve more furloughs when guys have left current jobs to come back to DL. There may be a slight increase---to 80 hours on some aircraft or maybe all---but with the current early retirements and further training required to cover those early outs---it shouldn't affect the whole group much. There are probably many things in the works---like lowering the reserve guarantee to 65 hours from 70(?), lowering per diem,lowering the amount of vacation pay for each day of vacation, etc... that we have no idea about---and that is if they are actually negotiating. I don't really see that happening until after the "master plan" is given to Dalpa.....

And, it is good to be back----those long 4 days with an allnighter in there really hits you like a ton of bricks.....

Bye Bye--General Lee:;)
 
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General,
Wake up and smell the coffee. The writer of that message appears to REALLY know what is going on.

If the VOCAL MINORITY like you continue to rule at Delta and try to shut up WITH INSULTS people like the writer of that message, Delta is in for a lot of trouble. Delta guys will be crying like the United and US Airways guys in the next 1-2 years. Just wait and see! I just hope you're saving some of that INDUSTRY OBLITERATING PAY for rougher days ahead.

Good luck to everyone associated with Delta,
Jet

Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, Delta..........
 
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acarpe3448 said:
The Delta pilots did come up with an agreement like that. They took pay cuts, formed Delta Express, gave up a lot on work rules, and the company demanded all of this just at the start of the biggest economic expansion in the history of our country. Then Mr. Leo came into office and when asked by our union about the cuts we had made and the current healthy condition of the airline, they were told "a contract is a contract."

I've heard this argument before from Delta pilots and I first I agreed with their point of view. But now I'm not so sure. What good is a contract with a company that is out of business?

Also, as a major/regional pay comparison I just gave myself a six figure income ($100K) then took a 20 percent pay cut and still ended up with a 25 percent pay increase over what I make now. As I've said before pay cuts at ASA/Comair are out of the question as far as I am concerenced. It would force many of us into poverty.
 
General Lee said:
Yeah ok inclusivescope...............


A lot smarter than me? Not if you knew who he was---and I do. I continue to say that we should give pay cuts---and we all can see what is going on. How would you like to give up 44% of your contract when nobody else in the company is giving up squat because they are making "industry standard"---even though the industry standard age and longenvity is 30 years less per employee? Have you seen the average age and longevity of our average mainline stew? They are all on top pay and are in their 70's.....


Are you saying that you deserve more than industry standard because the pilots have less longevity than the other work groups? If your waiting for ASA and CMR to help bail you out of this mess, you can forget about it. We have been subsidizing your retirement long enough.
 
In three years, RJs dominate scene

by Gregory Polek

New airline industry statistics released last month by the office of DOT inspector general Kenneth Mead revealed that regional jets now account for one-quarter of all departures in the U.S. In absolute terms, RJ frequencies increased 140 percent (from 88,474 to 212,126 departures) since December 2000, when the small jets accounted for just 10 percent of all departures. Meanwhile, flights involving mainline jets declined 19 percent and turboprop movements dropped a staggering 41 percent.

That RJs have assumed a vital role in the nation’s air transportation system should come as no surprise; but the extent and speed with which they’ve taken responsibility for routes within mainline networks have surprised many observers. New service to destinations rendered economically feasible by regional jets has contributed to the sector’s growth as well, while major carriers continue to stagnate as they wait for the so-called economic recovery to translate into a need for more larger airplanes.

During the three-year span the IG report examined, overall capacity declined 11 percent, while regional airlines saw a 4-percent increase and low-fare carriers experienced a 6-percent jump. But while the nation’s hub airports benefited from the jump in regional jet traffic, non-hub and regional airports, particularly in the Northeast, suffered. Even though RJ traffic into those airports increased by 161 percent from December 2000, turboprop capacity–traditionally the lifeblood of the smallest airports–fell 30 percent, and large jet traffic dropped 36 percent. As a result, non-hub airports saw a 17-percent drop in total service over the past five years. Airline schedules for last month show a 19-percent decline in air service at non-hub airports compared with January 1998, while big airports experienced a 1-percent increase in ASMs.

The IG traffic report came just two weeks after the Bureau of Transportation Statistics reported that regional airlines enjoyed the highest domestic operating margins of any carrier group, including the low-fares segment, during last year’s third quarter.

The group of seven regional carriers–Air Wisconsin, Comair, Skywest, Atlantic Coast, ExpressJet, American Eagle and Atlantic Southeast Airlines–reported a domestic operating profit of 15.4 percent for the third quarter, well above the margin of 11.2 percent reported by seven selected low-cost air carriers and the 1.6-percent loss reported by the seven largest network carriers. While JetBlue reported the top operating profit margins in the industry, Atlantic Coast Airlines and Air Wisconsin followed close behind in second and third, respectively.

Although the regional carriers reported the lowest total domestic revenue of the three groups, they showed the highest unit revenues– 15.2 cents per available seat mile–due mainly to their relatively short stage lengths. And while they also reported the highest unit costs–12.8 cents per available seat mile–their combined yields of 24.2 cents per revenue passenger mile were more than twice those of the network and low-cost carriers.
 
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Guys, I wouldn't worry about subsidiaries taking cuts....this is a mainline issue & will be resolved in that fashion. You guys already have your own pressures from DCI to worry about.

Fins, most mainline Delta personnel with any seniority wouldn't leave to a better paying job because they're tough to find and they have a lot invested in DAL. The people that are gate agents, ramp workers, dispatchers, ground instructors, etc. that have any seniority here are paid well, have a retirement plan, and are staying here as a career, just like us pilot types. I have a friend with about 8 years seniority here who is a ground school instructor (not a seniority list pilot). He makes over $80,000 a year. We have senior flight attendants making $60,000 per year. Not bad for a high school education. Nobody I know takes the idea of paycuts lightly and I think the employees of DAL are worth every cent. But if DAL does decide to cut non-union pay after ours, there is some savings to be had and they would still end up close to top-tier in this industry. Not many folks on first year pay at DAL anymore, most are furloughed except for the high-turnover positions like gate/ticket agents & ramp.

On the negotiating front, DALPA just negotiated a side letter helping the company keep certain equipment staffed when there are large amounts of early retirements, they met with the company over recalls this week without a lot of hubbub. The two sides are talking....

Aside from UAL & USAirways where they were virtually negotiating in public due to the bankruptcy process, most deals happen seemingly out of nowhere. I would expect a future concessionary agreement to take place much the same way.
 
Re: what a rediculous thing to say!

737 Pylt said:
YGTBSM!! Just how exactly do you pay your way as independents??

As hard as this may be for you to believe, Delta did not always own Comair or ASA.

We were consistently profitable while paying our own way before we were bought and we're profitable today. We're not Delta's problem.
 
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Please Shoot Me

You Mainline guys are unbelievable! What kind of crap do you tell yourselves while at Moody, McC, or Eglin? This sense of entitlement has to stop. You are under the impression that you are entitled something......what? You've earned no more than I. You've worked no harder than I. You know no more than I. You fly no more than I. But you do make more than I. Excuse the use of "I", I'm trying to be like a Delta pilot.

My question is what do you expect when United Captains are making as much or less than Delta FOs? Get a clue. Nobody cares about your problems and concerns. Certainly not your fellow employees. Saying the rest of the company should give concessions before you is irresponsible and rude. You should have been the leadership that sends a message to the head-shed stating that you are in a position to help and will. But let's not forget you are entitled to your precious contract. That contract, my friend, is slowly handing your a$$ to you. Press on, stay the course, be the long-pole in the tent. No martyrs here. "Full Pay to the Last Day", only from a Mainline Pilot.

While your company bleeds, mine grows and pays it's own way whilke making a profit. So while you scream entitlement, we'll be surviving and you'll be bitching about how short your lunch break is at Home Depot.

You folks are making a temporary problem permanent. Congratulations, morons.
 
Re: Please Shoot Me

Dude said:

My question is what do you expect when United Captains are making as much or less than Delta FOs? Get a clue. Nobody cares about your problems and concerns. Certainly not your fellow employees. Saying the rest of the company should give concessions before you is irresponsible and rude. You should have been the leadership that sends a message to the head-shed stating that you are in a position to help and will. But let's not forget you are entitled to your precious contract. That contract, my friend, is slowly handing your a$$ to you. Press on, stay the course, be the long-pole in the tent. No martyrs here. "Full Pay to the Last Day", only from a Mainline Pilot.

While your company bleeds, mine grows and pays it's own way whilke making a profit. So while you scream entitlement, we'll be surviving and you'll be bitching about how short your lunch break is at Home Depot.

You folks are making a temporary problem permanent. Congratulations, morons.

Why do you care? If they're such idiots, then your company will be "making a profit"" and you'll be "surviving". It's easy to vote for someone else's paycut.

FWIW, I have yet to meet a DAL pilot who didn't recongnize the need for a paycut. What's going on right now is the painful process of finding the number...they may not be at the table but both sides are certainly laying the foundations for their positions in the media.
 
Nobody said the other employees should give before us. Settle down, Francis.
 
Re: Please Shoot Me

80drvr said:
Why do you care?

I suppose his concern comes from the specter that if the Delta pilots drag the corporation into bankruptcy, Comair and ASA will have "line item veto" imposed on their contracts by the Judge as well regardless of the fact that Comair and ASA are profitable.

Our MECs are locked out of the process so the fate of pilots at the wholly owns is in the hands of the Delta MEC who we did not elect and who, clearly, does not represent our interests.

Certainly, any rational person can see the duty of fair representation problem with this. Separate pilot groups on the same property is a disaster for the union and a disaster for the profession and it's exactly what your myopic MEC wanted.
 
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dude,

Before you start comparing us to United Capts and our peer pay, you need to look at your peer pay also. You have plenty of competition when it comes to comparing your pay also to your peers. As Vortilon states, we probably have backroom deals going on at this moment---and the pay concessions will be forth coming. But, most of our ground employees and Inflight employees are senior and have longevity---which makes it more expensive all around. Grinstein knows this and hasn't really made them cough up much.(which he could do easily if needed) It just seems like he doesn't want them to bring in any more unions---and trying to pick on the sole union. We will give though---but hopefully there will some participation from all groups. (even though we will take the brunt)

And no one I have seen says "Full pay to the last day"-----where are you coming up with that? You are drinking the media koolaid just like a lot of other people. You do need to lighten up.

Bye Bye--General Lee :rolleyes:
 
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Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

N2264J said:
I suppose his concern comes from the spector that if the Delta pilots drag the corporation into bankruptcy, Comair and ASA will have "line item veto" imposed on their contracts by the Judge as well regardless of the fact that Comair and ASA are profitable.

Our MECs are locked out of the process so the fate of pilots at the wholly owns is in the hands of the Delta MEC who we did not elect and who, clearly, does not represent our interests.

Certainly, any rational person can see the duty of fair representation problem with this. Separate pilot groups on the same property is a disaster for the union and a disaster for the profession and it's exactly what your myopic MEC wanted.

So it's the Delta Pilots dragging the corporation into bankruptcy...not the economy, mgmt, terrorism, war, sars, business model, etc... If the pilots had taken a 30% paycut last year, would the corporation have posted a profit?

As far as controlling your own destiny, you hitched your wagon to a company that provides lift to a major network carrier.

Lets be honest: you want the Delta Pilots to take a pay cut so you won't have to.
 
Sooooooo true.
 
Re: Please Shoot Me

Dude said:
You've earned no more than I. You've worked no harder than I. You know no more than I. You fly no more than I. But you do make more than I.
My question is what do you expect when United Captains are making as much or less than Delta FOs?

Dude,

how many paying passengers are in the back of your TP or corporate jet? you think all pilots should make the same money? you think a 777 captain or fo should make the same as your jetstream captain seat or fo seat? cmon! just because everyone jumps off a bridge you will too? i think the DAL guys are the only smart ones in this game....they will give when the time is right, not when whiny, sour grapes dudes say they should. :rolleyes:
 
Vortillion,

You said

Nobody said the other employees should give before us. Settle down, Francis.


the General posted

Remember, if Grinstein really really needs the cash now---he has the flexibility to do it with most of the other employees
 
Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

80drvr said:
If the pilots had taken a 30% paycut last year, would the corporation have posted a profit?


80drvr,
Last year, Delta lost 773 million dollars. Management is asking for cuts of 830 million dollars. With managements request, Delta would have made 57 million dollars. So to answer your question YES they would have.

Inclusivescope
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

InclusiveScope said:
80drvr,
Last year, Delta lost 773 million dollars. Management is asking for cuts of 830 million dollars. With managements request, Delta would have made 57 million dollars. So to answer your question YES they would have.

Inclusivescope

so it is the pilots responsibility to make up for managements mistakes? what if after pilots take 30% cuts and management makes new mistakes...should pilots cut and cut until every employee at any company all makes the same? will that make everyone feel good?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

Pilotbob3 said:
so it is the pilots responsibility to make up for managements mistakes? what if after pilots take 30% cuts and management makes new mistakes...should pilots cut and cut until every employee at any company all makes the same? will that make everyone feel good?


Pilotbob3,
I didn't say it was the "pilots responsibility to make up for managements mistakes". I was merely responding to the question of whether these cuts would have made Delta profitable.
The answer is YES as I have shown.

Now on to your point.

1. First of all many of the ills of the airline industry are not "managements mistakes". Many of the problems are caused by Deregulation, 911, War, rising oil costs, rising medical costs, new technology (faxes, email, teleconference, etc.), and rising security costs. I would hardly blame management for these major issues.

2. Management has one advantage that airline pilot unions don't have. They can transport their earnings potential with them to another job. Airline pilots cannot - they must start over. Maybe a national seniority list and/or minimum contract standards could change that - I don't know.

So to answer your question Pilotbob, no the pilots don't have to do anything. However the mainline pilots have further to fall than anyone - be it management, regional pilots, rampers, gate agents, or flight attendants.
 
Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

80drvr said:

Lets be honest: you want the Delta Pilots to take a pay cut so you won't have to.

Let's be honest: we don't have to now.

Comair payed their pilots approximately $115 million in 2003 including all benefits and per diem. If we were to take an extraordinary paycut of something like 30% (thats very extraordinary considering Comair is very profitable, and thats including all expenses) the result would be a savings of $35 million a year, and thats at a 30% paycut of all pay, benefits and even per diem!

Comair pilots are paid around $80 million a year. A little more realistic, which creates $24 million in payroll cuts yearly. That's still at a 30% concession, which is not gonna happen.

Realistically, you'd never get more than 10% out of Comair pilots (probably none at all, but this is the best you could hope for.) Thats $8 million a year in savings.

30% cut of all benies, perdiem, and pay = $35 million.
30% cut of pay = $24 million.
10% cut of pay = $8 million.

None of these numbers come anywhere close to the $830 million they're looking for. The 10% paycut at $8 million savings a year is less than 1% of what Grinstein is asking.

You have no moral reason to ask that ASA and Comair share in paycuts. These numbers should prove that you also have no financial reason to demand Comair and ASA share in paycuts.

Or is it that if you have to suffer you're going to make sure everybody else does too? Funny, we never demanded part of your pay when it was given to you, why are you demanding part of ours when yours is being taken?

Leggo your ego.
 
Don't underestimate managment. If they can pay you less then they will. Everything is evlauated using "comps" - comparable figues based on industry averages. If they see too much of a variance from industry comps, then they will try to reduce the difference - why would they leave money "on the table" when they could use it elsewhere? Nobody is safe in this new LCC envirnoment - nobody...
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

InclusiveScope said:
Pilotbob3,
I didn't say it was the "pilots responsibility to make up for managements mistakes". I was merely responding to the question of whether these cuts would have made Delta profitable.
The answer is YES as I have shown.

Now on to your point.

1. First of all many of the ills of the airline industry are not "managements mistakes". Many of the problems are caused by Deregulation, 911, War, rising oil costs, rising medical costs, new technology (faxes, email, teleconference, etc.), and rising security costs. I would hardly blame management for these major issues.

2. Management has one advantage that airline pilot unions don't have. They can transport their earnings potential with them to another job. Airline pilots cannot - they must start over. Maybe a national seniority list and/or minimum contract standards could change that - I don't know.

So to answer your question Pilotbob, no the pilots don't have to do anything. However the mainline pilots have further to fall than anyone - be it management, regional pilots, rampers, gate agents, or flight attendants.

i agree with your points

i agree that many of the latest problems are not just manangement faults, a national list would be great...it will never happen because no one will be able to get it together. unfortuantely.
 

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