Delta Pilot's Pay Raise (part 1)

[InclusiveScope]

Yeah ok inclusivescope...............


A lot smarter than me? Not if you knew who he was---and I do. I continue to say that we should give pay cuts---and we all can see what is going on. How would you like to give up 44% of your contract when nobody else in the company is giving up squat because they are making "industry standard"---even though the industry standard age and longenvity is 30 years less per employee? Have you seen the average age and longevity of our average mainline stew? They are all on top pay and are in their 70's.....

Are you saying that you deserve more than industry standard because the pilots have less longevity than the other work groups? If your waiting for ASA and CMR to help bail you out of this mess, you can forget about it. We have been subsidizing your retirement long enough.

 

[N2264J]

In three years, RJs dominate scene

by Gregory Polek

New airline industry statistics released last month by the office of DOT inspector general Kenneth Mead revealed that regional jets now account for one-quarter of all departures in the U.S. In absolute terms, RJ frequencies increased 140 percent (from 88,474 to 212,126 departures) since December 2000, when the small jets accounted for just 10 percent of all departures. Meanwhile, flights involving mainline jets declined 19 percent and turboprop movements dropped a staggering 41 percent.

That RJs have assumed a vital role in the nation’s air transportation system should come as no surprise; but the extent and speed with which they’ve taken responsibility for routes within mainline networks have surprised many observers. New service to destinations rendered economically feasible by regional jets has contributed to the sector’s growth as well, while major carriers continue to stagnate as they wait for the so-called economic recovery to translate into a need for more larger airplanes.

During the three-year span the IG report examined, overall capacity declined 11 percent, while regional airlines saw a 4-percent increase and low-fare carriers experienced a 6-percent jump. But while the nation’s hub airports benefited from the jump in regional jet traffic, non-hub and regional airports, particularly in the Northeast, suffered. Even though RJ traffic into those airports increased by 161 percent from December 2000, turboprop capacity–traditionally the lifeblood of the smallest airports–fell 30 percent, and large jet traffic dropped 36 percent. As a result, non-hub airports saw a 17-percent drop in total service over the past five years. Airline schedules for last month show a 19-percent decline in air service at non-hub airports compared with January 1998, while big airports experienced a 1-percent increase in ASMs.

The IG traffic report came just two weeks after the Bureau of Transportation Statistics reported that regional airlines enjoyed the highest domestic operating margins of any carrier group, including the low-fares segment, during last year’s third quarter.

The group of seven regional carriers–Air Wisconsin, Comair, Skywest, Atlantic Coast, ExpressJet, American Eagle and Atlantic Southeast Airlines–reported a domestic operating profit of 15.4 percent for the third quarter, well above the margin of 11.2 percent reported by seven selected low-cost air carriers and the 1.6-percent loss reported by the seven largest network carriers. While JetBlue reported the top operating profit margins in the industry, Atlantic Coast Airlines and Air Wisconsin followed close behind in second and third, respectively.

Although the regional carriers reported the lowest total domestic revenue of the three groups, they showed the highest unit revenues– 15.2 cents per available seat mile–due mainly to their relatively short stage lengths. And while they also reported the highest unit costs–12.8 cents per available seat mile–their combined yields of 24.2 cents per revenue passenger mile were more than twice those of the network and low-cost carriers.

 

[Vortilon]

Guys, I wouldn't worry about subsidiaries taking cuts....this is a mainline issue & will be resolved in that fashion. You guys already have your own pressures from DCI to worry about.

Fins, most mainline Delta personnel with any seniority wouldn't leave to a better paying job because they're tough to find and they have a lot invested in DAL. The people that are gate agents, ramp workers, dispatchers, ground instructors, etc. that have any seniority here are paid well, have a retirement plan, and are staying here as a career, just like us pilot types. I have a friend with about 8 years seniority here who is a ground school instructor (not a seniority list pilot). He makes over $80,000 a year. We have senior flight attendants making $60,000 per year. Not bad for a high school education. Nobody I know takes the idea of paycuts lightly and I think the employees of DAL are worth every cent. But if DAL does decide to cut non-union pay after ours, there is some savings to be had and they would still end up close to top-tier in this industry. Not many folks on first year pay at DAL anymore, most are furloughed except for the high-turnover positions like gate/ticket agents & ramp.

On the negotiating front, DALPA just negotiated a side letter helping the company keep certain equipment staffed when there are large amounts of early retirements, they met with the company over recalls this week without a lot of hubbub. The two sides are talking....

Aside from UAL & USAirways where they were virtually negotiating in public due to the bankruptcy process, most deals happen seemingly out of nowhere. I would expect a future concessionary agreement to take place much the same way.

 

[N2264J]

Re: what a rediculous thing to say!

YGTBSM!! Just how exactly do you pay your way as independents??

As hard as this may be for you to believe, Delta did not always own Comair or ASA.

We were consistently profitable while paying our own way before we were bought and we're profitable today. We're not Delta's problem.

 

[Dude]

Please Shoot Me

You Mainline guys are unbelievable! What kind of crap do you tell yourselves while at Moody, McC, or Eglin? This sense of entitlement has to stop. You are under the impression that you are entitled something......what? You've earned no more than I. You've worked no harder than I. You know no more than I. You fly no more than I. But you do make more than I. Excuse the use of "I", I'm trying to be like a Delta pilot.

My question is what do you expect when United Captains are making as much or less than Delta FOs? Get a clue. Nobody cares about your problems and concerns. Certainly not your fellow employees. Saying the rest of the company should give concessions before you is irresponsible and rude. You should have been the leadership that sends a message to the head-shed stating that you are in a position to help and will. But let's not forget you are entitled to your precious contract. That contract, my friend, is slowly handing your a$$ to you. Press on, stay the course, be the long-pole in the tent. No martyrs here. "Full Pay to the Last Day", only from a Mainline Pilot.

While your company bleeds, mine grows and pays it's own way whilke making a profit. So while you scream entitlement, we'll be surviving and you'll be bitching about how short your lunch break is at Home Depot.

You folks are making a temporary problem permanent. Congratulations, morons.

 

[letthebigdogeat]

Well said dude, amen!

 

[80drvr]

Re: Please Shoot Me

My question is what do you expect when United Captains are making as much or less than Delta FOs? Get a clue. Nobody cares about your problems and concerns. Certainly not your fellow employees. Saying the rest of the company should give concessions before you is irresponsible and rude. You should have been the leadership that sends a message to the head-shed stating that you are in a position to help and will. But let's not forget you are entitled to your precious contract. That contract, my friend, is slowly handing your a$$ to you. Press on, stay the course, be the long-pole in the tent. No martyrs here. "Full Pay to the Last Day", only from a Mainline Pilot.

While your company bleeds, mine grows and pays it's own way whilke making a profit. So while you scream entitlement, we'll be surviving and you'll be bitching about how short your lunch break is at Home Depot.

You folks are making a temporary problem permanent. Congratulations, morons.

Why do you care? If they're such idiots, then your company will be "making a profit"" and you'll be "surviving". It's easy to vote for someone else's paycut.

FWIW, I have yet to meet a DAL pilot who didn't recongnize the need for a paycut. What's going on right now is the painful process of finding the number...they may not be at the table but both sides are certainly laying the foundations for their positions in the media.

 

[Vortilon]

Nobody said the other employees should give before us. Settle down, Francis.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Please Shoot Me

Why do you care?

I suppose his concern comes from the specter that if the Delta pilots drag the corporation into bankruptcy, Comair and ASA will have "line item veto" imposed on their contracts by the Judge as well regardless of the fact that Comair and ASA are profitable.

Our MECs are locked out of the process so the fate of pilots at the wholly owns is in the hands of the Delta MEC who we did not elect and who, clearly, does not represent our interests.

Certainly, any rational person can see the duty of fair representation problem with this. Separate pilot groups on the same property is a disaster for the union and a disaster for the profession and it's exactly what your myopic MEC wanted.

 

[General Lee]

dude,

Before you start comparing us to United Capts and our peer pay, you need to look at your peer pay also. You have plenty of competition when it comes to comparing your pay also to your peers. As Vortilon states, we probably have backroom deals going on at this moment---and the pay concessions will be forth coming. But, most of our ground employees and Inflight employees are senior and have longevity---which makes it more expensive all around. Grinstein knows this and hasn't really made them cough up much.(which he could do easily if needed) It just seems like he doesn't want them to bring in any more unions---and trying to pick on the sole union. We will give though---but hopefully there will some participation from all groups. (even though we will take the brunt)

And no one I have seen says "Full pay to the last day"-----where are you coming up with that? You are drinking the media koolaid just like a lot of other people. You do need to lighten up.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[80drvr]

Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

I suppose his concern comes from the spector that if the Delta pilots drag the corporation into bankruptcy, Comair and ASA will have "line item veto" imposed on their contracts by the Judge as well regardless of the fact that Comair and ASA are profitable.

Our MECs are locked out of the process so the fate of pilots at the wholly owns is in the hands of the Delta MEC who we did not elect and who, clearly, does not represent our interests.

Certainly, any rational person can see the duty of fair representation problem with this. Separate pilot groups on the same property is a disaster for the union and a disaster for the profession and it's exactly what your myopic MEC wanted.

So it's the Delta Pilots dragging the corporation into bankruptcy...not the economy, mgmt, terrorism, war, sars, business model, etc... If the pilots had taken a 30% paycut last year, would the corporation have posted a profit?

As far as controlling your own destiny, you hitched your wagon to a company that provides lift to a major network carrier.

Lets be honest: you want the Delta Pilots to take a pay cut so you won't have to.

 

[General Lee]

Sooooooo true.

 

[Pilotbob3]

Re: Please Shoot Me

You've earned no more than I. You've worked no harder than I. You know no more than I. You fly no more than I. But you do make more than I.
My question is what do you expect when United Captains are making as much or less than Delta FOs?

Dude,

how many paying passengers are in the back of your TP or corporate jet? you think all pilots should make the same money? you think a 777 captain or fo should make the same as your jetstream captain seat or fo seat? cmon! just because everyone jumps off a bridge you will too? i think the DAL guys are the only smart ones in this game....they will give when the time is right, not when whiny, sour grapes dudes say they should.

 

[rjcap]

Vortillion,

You said

Nobody said the other employees should give before us. Settle down, Francis.

the General posted

Remember, if Grinstein really really needs the cash now---he has the flexibility to do it with most of the other employees

 

[InclusiveScope]

Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

If the pilots had taken a 30% paycut last year, would the corporation have posted a profit?

80drvr,
Last year, Delta lost 773 million dollars. Management is asking for cuts of 830 million dollars. With managements request, Delta would have made 57 million dollars. So to answer your question YES they would have.

Inclusivescope

 

[Pilotbob3]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

80drvr,
Last year, Delta lost 773 million dollars. Management is asking for cuts of 830 million dollars. With managements request, Delta would have made 57 million dollars. So to answer your question YES they would have.

Inclusivescope

so it is the pilots responsibility to make up for managements mistakes? what if after pilots take 30% cuts and management makes new mistakes...should pilots cut and cut until every employee at any company all makes the same? will that make everyone feel good?

 

[InclusiveScope]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

so it is the pilots responsibility to make up for managements mistakes? what if after pilots take 30% cuts and management makes new mistakes...should pilots cut and cut until every employee at any company all makes the same? will that make everyone feel good?

Pilotbob3,
I didn't say it was the "pilots responsibility to make up for managements mistakes". I was merely responding to the question of whether these cuts would have made Delta profitable.
The answer is YES as I have shown.

Now on to your point.

1. First of all many of the ills of the airline industry are not "managements mistakes". Many of the problems are caused by Deregulation, 911, War, rising oil costs, rising medical costs, new technology (faxes, email, teleconference, etc.), and rising security costs. I would hardly blame management for these major issues.

2. Management has one advantage that airline pilot unions don't have. They can transport their earnings potential with them to another job. Airline pilots cannot - they must start over. Maybe a national seniority list and/or minimum contract standards could change that - I don't know.

So to answer your question Pilotbob, no the pilots don't have to do anything. However the mainline pilots have further to fall than anyone - be it management, regional pilots, rampers, gate agents, or flight attendants.

 

[bvt1151]

Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

Lets be honest: you want the Delta Pilots to take a pay cut so you won't have to.

Let's be honest: we don't have to now.

Comair payed their pilots approximately $115 million in 2003 including all benefits and per diem. If we were to take an extraordinary paycut of something like 30% (thats very extraordinary considering Comair is very profitable, and thats including all expenses) the result would be a savings of $35 million a year, and thats at a 30% paycut of all pay, benefits and even per diem!

Comair pilots are paid around $80 million a year. A little more realistic, which creates $24 million in payroll cuts yearly. That's still at a 30% concession, which is not gonna happen.

Realistically, you'd never get more than 10% out of Comair pilots (probably none at all, but this is the best you could hope for.) Thats $8 million a year in savings.

30% cut of all benies, perdiem, and pay = $35 million.
30% cut of pay = $24 million.
10% cut of pay = $8 million.

None of these numbers come anywhere close to the $830 million they're looking for. The 10% paycut at $8 million savings a year is less than 1% of what Grinstein is asking.

You have no moral reason to ask that ASA and Comair share in paycuts. These numbers should prove that you also have no financial reason to demand Comair and ASA share in paycuts.

Or is it that if you have to suffer you're going to make sure everybody else does too? Funny, we never demanded part of your pay when it was given to you, why are you demanding part of ours when yours is being taken?

Leggo your ego.

 

[Heavy Set]

Don't underestimate managment. If they can pay you less then they will. Everything is evlauated using "comps" - comparable figues based on industry averages. If they see too much of a variance from industry comps, then they will try to reduce the difference - why would they leave money "on the table" when they could use it elsewhere? Nobody is safe in this new LCC envirnoment - nobody...

 

[Pilotbob3]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

Pilotbob3,
I didn't say it was the "pilots responsibility to make up for managements mistakes". I was merely responding to the question of whether these cuts would have made Delta profitable.
The answer is YES as I have shown.

Now on to your point.

1. First of all many of the ills of the airline industry are not "managements mistakes". Many of the problems are caused by Deregulation, 911, War, rising oil costs, rising medical costs, new technology (faxes, email, teleconference, etc.), and rising security costs. I would hardly blame management for these major issues.

2. Management has one advantage that airline pilot unions don't have. They can transport their earnings potential with them to another job. Airline pilots cannot - they must start over. Maybe a national seniority list and/or minimum contract standards could change that - I don't know.

So to answer your question Pilotbob, no the pilots don't have to do anything. However the mainline pilots have further to fall than anyone - be it management, regional pilots, rampers, gate agents, or flight attendants.

i agree with your points

i agree that many of the latest problems are not just manangement faults, a national list would be great...it will never happen because no one will be able to get it together. unfortuantely.