Delta Pilot's Pay Raise (part 1)

[80drvr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

80drvr,
Last year, Delta lost 773 million dollars. Management is asking for cuts of 830 million dollars. With managements request, Delta would have made 57 million dollars. So to answer your question YES they would have.

Inclusivescope

830M request would put the cuts at closer to 40% than 30% if the pilot payroll is as DAL reports (~2060 03 & 2142 04). I'll let the Delta folks chime in from here as they mostl likely have more accurate info.

 

[80drvr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

Let's be honest: we don't have to now.

Comair payed their pilots approximately $115 million in 2003 including all benefits and per diem. If we were to take an extraordinary paycut of something like 30% (thats very extraordinary considering Comair is very profitable, and thats including all expenses) the result would be a savings of $35 million a year, and thats at a 30% paycut of all pay, benefits and even per diem!

Comair pilots are paid around $80 million a year. A little more realistic, which creates $24 million in payroll cuts yearly. That's still at a 30% concession, which is not gonna happen.

Realistically, you'd never get more than 10% out of Comair pilots (probably none at all, but this is the best you could hope for.) Thats $8 million a year in savings.

30% cut of all benies, perdiem, and pay = $35 million.
30% cut of pay = $24 million.
10% cut of pay = $8 million.

None of these numbers come anywhere close to the $830 million they're looking for. The 10% paycut at $8 million savings a year is less than 1% of what Grinstein is asking.

You have no moral reason to ask that ASA and Comair share in paycuts. These numbers should prove that you also have no financial reason to demand Comair and ASA share in paycuts.

Or is it that if you have to suffer you're going to make sure everybody else does too? Funny, we never demanded part of your pay when it was given to you, why are you demanding part of ours when yours is being taken?

Leggo your ego.

Who proposed a 30% cut for Comair?

The original poster's concern was that if DAL heads to BK, a judge will take a carving knife to everyone's contract. Thus the desire to see DAL pilots take a pay cut is one of self interest.

p.s. not a DAL or DCI pilot so I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[General Lee]

RJCAP,

What I said is absolutely true. If he has to do it--he COULD. That is flexibility. I also stated that I thought we would come to an agreement first. I am glad you forgot to include that.


80 drvr,

They aren't going to get it all from us. That is ridiculous. We might give the majority of that---but other people may have to sacrifice too. Every other major that has been through the ringer lately had everyone give something. We are all a part of this.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bvt1151]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Please Shoot Me

Who proposed a 30% cut for Comair?

Exactly! Nobody did. I just used 30% as an extreme number to put it all into perspective. Even if you took a third of all of the Comair pilots' pay, benefits, and per diem, you would still only get $35 million is savings.

My point is that the Comair pilots know two things:

#1. Comair is profitable at the current pay scale.

#2. Huge concessions by Comair pilots would be nothing more than a "gesture," since they're total pay equals less than 15% of the cost reductions required to make Delta as a whole profitable.

With ASA and XJT in negotiations, we're more worried about upholding the bar for them than we are making DALPA feel better. If the carving knife is imminent, and concession by us would be insignificant to the health of Delta as a whole, why should we needlessly suffer, especially when our contract is so much closer to industry average?

Cost-wise, Comair pays their RJ pilots an average of $308 per block hour. The industry average is $278 per block hour. Thats 10% above industry average which includes ASA and XJT, who will be increasing the industry average shortly.

Delta pays their pilots an average of $2139 per block hour. The industry average to fly the exact same aircraft is $913 per block hour. That is a whopping 134% above industry average.

FYI, ASA is 5% behind industry average pay on the same aircraft.


When asked for concessions from the Delta pilots, I'm sure the Comair pilots will offer a gesture, just a different one than they're looking for.

p.s. not a DAL or DCI pilot so I don't have a dog in this fight.

Consider yourself lucky

 

[737 Pylt]

Re: Re: what a rediculous thing to say!

Originally posted by N2264J
As hard as this may be for you to believe, Delta did not always own Comair or ASA.

Those were completely different times when the industry was at an "all time" record breaking profit/expansion era!

We were consistently profitable while paying our own way before we were bought and we're profitable today. We're not Delta's problem.

See the above response!

For N2264J I offer the following quote from FDJ2

"Delta chief financial officer Michele Burns said Delta pays for all but operational costs for a Comair passenger, with such costs including the debt for new airplanes, marketing and distribution and other costs. "

Please, N2264J get your facts straight before spouting off at the mouth, or in this case keybord!
737

 

[Palerider957]

DAL pilots need to stop waisting their time taking swipes at regional pilots. Honestly, it may make you feel good, but it is not productive.

General, you want our $19.02/hr FO's to take a pay cut? Even if that poor bas.tard worked for free the concession woudn't amount to jack.

Pehaps we should give up our funded pension plan...whoops! Don't have one of those. Perhaps, we should think about giving up trip/duty rigs/minimum day?? Hmmmmm...don't have that either. How about we cut our per diem...well at only $1.50/hr there isn't much to contribute there. Maybe we should tighten our work rules to allow more abuse from scheudling....well, we pretty much abut the FAR maximums already, can't do that.

How 'bout this...the next time I see a first year FO sitting in the crew lounge eating peanut butter and crackers (he can't afford to eat upstairs), I'll snatch the peanut butter from his hands and shout " YOU GREEDY FUC.KER...DON'T YOU KNOW THERE ARE DAL PILOTS OUT THERE." Then I'll send the peanut butter to DALPA...hell, I'll walk it over myself.

I know what some of you will say, "some RJ Capts. make over 100K a year." And that is true, a few do. Those guys are VERY senior guys who fly 90+ hours a month---yes, actually IN THE COCKPIT flying, not using smoke and mirror rigs, contract twists, to turn an extra buck. Also when this guy goes (retires) he has nothing but a kiss on the cheek and a pat on the as.s goodbye....no retirement, no pension, no lump sum. At age 60 he is unemployed and will probably have to find at least a part-time job.

Asking for concessions from regional guys (except Mesa), is pretty senseless.

I know DAL is hurting, but I simply won't vote for any new contract that isn't industry leading in pay and QOL....anything less is unacceptable. If DAL tanks in the meantime, so be it. I'll find another job in whatever industry....simple as that.

 

[General Lee]

bvt1151,

Can you please break down the $2139 per block hour for our pilots-----because I don't see that.

Please break it down and show me what each part goes to.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bvt1151]

Re: Re: Re: what a rediculous thing to s

Originally posted by N2264J
As hard as this may be for you to believe, Delta did not always own Comair or ASA.

Those were completely different times when the industry was at an "all time" record breaking profit/expansion era!

We were consistently profitable while paying our own way before we were bought and we're profitable today. We're not Delta's problem.

See the above response!

For N2264J I offer the following quote from FDJ2

"Delta chief financial officer Michele Burns said Delta pays for all but operational costs for a Comair passenger, with such costs including the debt for new airplanes, marketing and distribution and other costs. "

Please, N2264J get your facts straight before spouting off at the mouth, or in this case keybord!
737

This has been explained over and over again, but nobody seems to understand the different reporting techniques (well at least not when it makes a point in their favor). The $100 million a year profit we are talking about comes from the DOT data. That DOT data includes all aircraft costs(debt), insurance, taxes, interest, advertising and Depreciation.
Michelle was not referring to the DOT reporting procedures, since Comair reports those numbers directly, not through Michelle. Michelle was referring to the information she has under her control, or Delta's own internal accounting. Two very different accounting techniques.

If Comair does not pay for their own aircraft costs, where did the $15.5 million in aircraft depreciation expenses come from in Q3 2003?
Or how about the $31.7 million in aircraft rentals in Q3 2003?
...$3.7 million in insurance expenses?
...$13.3 million in outside services (Reservations and Ground Handling)?

(Comair pays their own advertising costs, however it is minimal, since Delta gutted Comair's marketing department soon after the buyout.)

All of those costs included with Michelle's operating costs still leaves us with a net profit of $23 million for 2003 Q3. Without the depreciation, rentals, insurance and outside services, Michelle was looking at a Comair profit not of $23 million per quarter, but a profit of over $87.2 million a quarter!

*Find all of these numbers in Schedule P6 and P12 of the DOT form 41 reports. Really, go look, they're there.

Could we finally put this to rest now?

 

[bvt1151]

bvt1151,

Can you please break down the $2139 per block hour for our pilots-----because I don't see that.

Please break it down and show me what each part goes to.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Gladly, but brace yourself, its pretty dull math:

Total crew cost per block hour was calculated by taking the totals of:
Take Home Pilot Pay,(Account #51230 from DOT P5.2)
Pilot Payroll Taxes Paid (#51680)
Pilot Personal Expenses(per-diem #51360)
Pilot Benefits (#51570)

This gave me the total crew cost (per airplane). I divided this by the blockhours per airplane and was able to calculate the crew cost per block hour for each aircraft at Delta. I found the average crew cost by compensating each aircraft's cost per block hour for the percentage of the fleet the aircraft represents i.e.
(Sum(Crew Cost per hour per airplane * number of this type of aircraft))/total aircraft fleet
(Its the same type formula as the old weight and balance calculations of weight * arm = moment. Instead of calculating arm, you're calculating crew cost per hour.)


All carriers and the industry average were calculated using the same technique. Just rinse and repeat.

After doing these calculations, I compared my numbers with similar calculations Eclat consulting conducted and the numbers were within $5.

Please, please, please, I encourage you to do these calculations yourself. I'm not asking you to take my word for it, especially when the information is free. Fortunately, however as many mathematical errors I may make, Excel makes very few

 

[General Lee]

Looks like we are going to need bigger airplanes with more seats to pay for these costs. I think that will happen at mainline.

Bye bye---General Lee

 

[letthebigdogeat]

Don't even bother with this any longer. Some of these guys simply are just too ignorant. Do you think they really care about how little we as a regional pilot make, that we have no pension, that most of us have two jobs just trying to support our families and pay for the basics, etc, etc, --> yeah right! Quite honestly most of them really don't have a clue....I see it on the jump seat all the time. They are truly shocked when they find out. And ... they want us to give as well, sure yeah I'll go get a THIRD job so I can make everyone happy, you're making more than $140.00 an hour than me, but hey no big sweat right?
We won't be giving concessions without receiving something fair in return just like no recalled furloughed guys will be flying our new 700s. We have rolled out the red carpets to the furloughed guys, and have given many of them jobs in our cockpits letting them keep their seniority number at big D. And I think that's the proper and mature thing to do and not to mention pretty darn nice of us. We have remained professional and fair so far and have been extremely patient with some of the mainline's attitude towards us. But enough is enough already. The DAL pilots' time to come down to middle class is coming, they know it, and they are understandably upset, I would be too. But to even think of asking us to take a hit without anything in return is just plain wrong. Won't be happening. I mean I don't get it. Explain to me why:

They have airplanes parked in the desert burning through cash, which could be utilized making money rather than throwing it out of the window. What was it $145,000 a month for each plane they're paying for sitting there collecting dust.

They just received and accepted a pay raise???????????

They're talking about bringing back the furloughed guys because of some furlough clause in their contract (don't get me wrong here, these furloughed guys need to come on back into the cockpit where they belong, but there's a certain time when this should happen, not when the company is struggling to stay afloat).

And on and on it goes. Is it just me??? Oh yeah, but we, who are making peanuts but are making millions and millions of dollars profit and do the same job they do, should also take concessions. What the ????
Show us that you have done you're part and have taken care of these money holes (some listed above) and if at that point they need further help, we should maybe, just maybe reconsider, but only guaranteeing us somethin in return, i.e. future profit sharing, etc with none of those famous loopholes... But then again, I have nothing to loose at this point, our company is making money and we have no where to go but up.
I wish them the best of luck though and believe me there's not another pilot group out there who wants to them get a fair deal and for mother Delta to survive this uncertain time more than us. Best o' luck

 

[bvt1151]

Looks like we are going to need bigger airplanes with more seats to pay for these costs. I think that will happen at mainline.

Bye bye---General Lee

Very true. Larger aircraft will dilute the cost per block hour.

The question is, will you be running into the same problems UAir is? Their large jets are profitable, however they're losing their arse trying to fill the large jets to make them profitable.

Nonetheless, you are correct. There are two ways to reduce unit-costs.

#1. reduce costs
#2. increase units.

I also hope larger aircraft do become present at mainline. It will allow you to maintain higher wages, while allowing for more revenue. The 767-400 seems to be very promising!

 

[General Lee]

bvt1151,

Yes, the 764 is a great aircraft, and we are starting to use it on other routes that used to fly 763's but had more potential---like ATL to Lima, Peru. The 764 has plenty of seats and lots of cargo space. I hope we do get more of them eventually----and we might get a few more from that "trade in" deal with Boeing for those 3 777s.

Believe it or not---we know we must take cuts---and we saw USAir and how they took pay cuts without a plan. We need a good plan, and then we will throw in some pay cuts and work towards that plan. I think that makes sense.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bvt1151]

bvt1151,

Yes, the 764 is a great aircraft, and we are starting to use it on other routes that used to fly 763's but had more potential---like ATL to Lima, Peru. The 764 has plenty of seats and lots of cargo space. I hope we do get more of them eventually----and we might get a few more from that "trade in" deal with Boeing for those 3 777s.

Believe it or not---we know we must take cuts---and we saw USAir and how they took pay cuts without a plan. We need a good plan, and then we will throw in some pay cuts and work towards that plan. I think that makes sense.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The "plan" is due out in July, I think. I'm referring to Grinstein's strategic reassessment. Can we expect negotiations to be stalled until then? Not necessarily a bad thing, since I agree that you should be privy to the company's direction before you reach an agreement.

Of course the longer you wait, the closer US Air is to liquidation, which may just be enough to pull Delta back to even. What happens if you give concessions and then UAir liquidates, generating a much larger profit for Delta? Will there be some sort of snap-back clause?

 

[General Lee]

bvt1151,

I doubt it. I thought Grinstein just stated that his plan is now due in AUG. I don't know why he is taking so long (since he has been on the board since 1989), but maybe he wants to get it right. I think Dalpa is just being careful---not trying to stall or anything. It would be great if we could just have a friendly relationship and say---"Hey, we'll give you some help now and hopefully you will come up with a great plan soon and we will give a little more then...." That would be great. A key fact here is that Grinstein is on the record of saying these cuts will be PERMANENT. That sure doesn't make everyone want to give right away, now does it? I can see that we are entering a new era with more LCC competition---and right now only the pilots are being asked to sacrifice a lot. Sure, you can say the others are at "industry standard" wages---but in reality we have the oldest employee group with the most people being paid the top of their wage bracket. I am not saying we don't deserve pay cuts here---we do---it's just that having us carry the majority of the burden is wrong. We will give enough to help out this company--but we better have a plan that will include increasing productivity in our airplanes (not only pilots) and fly them more and compete. We will eventually need more airplanes that can turn a profit--like some 100 seaters in place of some RJs. We need to stop abandoning routes out West and compete. We need to compete more on the INTL scale and not just code share everything away. Obviously this will have to be done with a lower cost structure, and I think most of us agree with that. We shall see what the plan is.......I hope it is a good one.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

80 drvr,

They aren't going to get it all from us. That is ridiculous. We might give the majority of that---but other people may have to sacrifice too. Every other major that has been through the ringer lately had everyone give something. We are all a part of this.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
They aren't going to get ANY from ASA. In fact we will be getting a raise - even Skip is planning on it. CMR has said no also. There are two groups who won't be sacrificing with you.

 

[701EV]

How 'bout this...the next time I see a first year FO sitting in the crew lounge eating peanut butter and crackers (he can't afford to eat upstairs), I'll snatch the peanut butter from his hands and shout " YOU GREEDY FUC.KER...DON'T YOU KNOW THERE ARE DAL PILOTS OUT THERE." Then I'll send the peanut butter to DALPA...hell, I'll walk it over myself.

Palerider957,

Now that was funny!

ROTFLMAO

701EV

 

[General Lee]

Many people have misunderstood some of my postings. I don't think the average ASA FO should give up a dime--especially if that is 5% of his hourly wage. I was mostly talking about the other mainline Delta employees who are being overlooked due to the fact that Grinstein doesn't want extra unions on the property. I know that we--the mainline pilots---should take the brunt of this---and that is fine with me. But to shoulder it all on us and blame us for everything wrong here is stupid. As far as I can remember--I didn't propose a $2.6 billion stock buy back pre-911 that vaporized shortly there after. I just drive a large bus. I think everyone involved should give up something----and that is up to them and their "people" to come up with something. Just because we NEGOTIATED a great contract doesn't mean that we are the ONLY targets---especially since all of the other mainline employees are all old and get paid five times the normal rate of their peers---and most of the other majors included everyone also. (Industry Standard---for 30 year plus people---and we have ten times more of those than everyone else.) It should be handled fairly--and I still think we should take the largest hit.


Clear as mud?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Yeah ok inclusivescope...............

Maybe I will write a long diatribe too (with Surplus1's help) about why you should vote for me for President of ALPA or maybe the United States of Iraq! (Fins can be Governor of the South incuding Basra, and Surplus1 can be the Mayor of Najaf)

General,

You would not need my help, you can make a much bigger mess on your own. However, your election as President of ALPA might actually be an improvement over the current wizard. President of Iraq, I don't think so, they already have more trouble than they need. However, you might be good as Secretary of Defense. I'm sure that with a little finesse in your "interrogation" technique you could extract enough from Delta's non-contract employees to make it unnecessary for you to take any pay cut at all.

Afterwards you could improve your position further by following the example of Bush and "liberate" the Comair and ASA guys by taking away their WMD (RJs) and giving them to yourselves and capturing Dan Ford (the RJDC terrorist). You could then take pictures of the whole thing and leak them to the analysts, who would reward you handsomely by recommending you for CEO. The shareholders, at least as gullible as the general population, will praise your wisdom even if you quadruple the company deficit and reward you with a bonus .... (like self-induced unemployment) .

Thanks, but I decline the mayorship of Najaf. If you want my support I demand the restoration of the 3-man cockpit so that Surplus1 and Fins can join you in guiding the ship of state. We both want to sit at your left and right hand in hopes that one day we may inherit your wisdom.

Fins,
I don't really see that happening until after the "master plan" is given to Dalpa.....

Let us all hope that there will be something left that's viable by the time there is a "master plan" and you all get around to endorsing it. Let us hope more that the "master plan" you keep waiting for doesn't turn out to be bankruptcy.

 

[Pilotbob3]

dont worry general lee.....if any of these pukes were DAL pilots they would be singing a totally different tune. i guarantee it!