Delta Pilots Check Your Email....

[formerdal]

you will be in the minority

I don't think he will at Delta....this is a crap sandwich for us.

 

[formerdal]

you will be in the minority

I don't think he will at Delta....this is a crap sandwich for us...


sorry for the double post..

 

[stein429]

Don't think! You might hurt yourself.

Ouch!

 

[DTW320]

It seems like a trend. The Delta pilots work to bring the NW pilots to parity. Then the NW pilots use the parity +1 as a bargaining position to take seniority from the Delta guys.

That's simply hilarious. The JPWA TA is a joint effort and has been unanimously approved by the DALPA MEC. It preserves, and enhances somewhat, your LOA19 that you proclaimed to be such a great thing, plus adds several goodies from the NWA contract, including a flowback to E175 left seat that you didn't have before. Please elaborate how we are "taking seniority from the Delta guys". Incredible.

 

[nwaredtail]

so if I were a NWA pilot, I would not throw more fuel on the fires of discontent. If you stir the pot enough the 88/90 guys will wake up and vote this down. Then we are all screwed.

Thanks for laugh, I needed that. It has already passed, believe me.

 

[DashTrash400]

Regarding the flowback to Compass...as I understand it, you're not guaranteed left seat or left seat pay. You flow to the top of the list, but once enough pilots senior to you flow down, you're then displaced to FO. Heck, if enough people flow down, you could even end up getting furloughed at Compass.

If you do end up in the right seat at Compass, you do get Step 4 pay, which is $37.94 as of 6/1/08. Captains get Step 2 pay, currently $63.50.

Edit: scratch that, I read the Compass CBA again. You get paid the lesser of the above or NWA longevity. A year-one NW/DL pilot who got displaced to FO at Compass would be making Step 1 pay...$23.59/hr. Yep, it sucks and it's ridiculously low for a 76 seat airplane...but NW ALPA negotiated it, thank them.

 

[nwaredtail]

I don't think he will at Delta....this is a crap sandwich for us...


sorry for the double post..

Why? Whats so different from LOA 19 except the obvious stuff that doesn't benefit DAL pilots at the NWA pilot's expense?

 

[propdog]

Yes. NWA got higher pay rates for their smaller equipment. That was unexpected and potentially changes the dynamics for anyone on the MD88/90.

What are you talking about?? Our 747-400s and 747-200s are paid the same as your 777s. We are the ones should be crying about stiffed pay for bigger equipment. Can we all stop fighting now??

 

[DTW320]

Yep, it sucks and it's ridiculously low for a 76 seat airplane...but NW ALPA negotiated it, thank them.

Yep, you don't have to take it either. And GASP!!You could get furloughed from Compass if the furloughs went deep enough. Who knew that you weren't guaranteed a job for life?!?!!

The fact remains that a flowback DAL pilot goes to the left seat of a E175 as seniority #1 at Compass. A FACT that didn't exist for DAL pilots prior to the JPWA. And yes, NWALPA negotiated it originally. Thank them? You're welcome.

 

[DTW320]

What are you talking about?? Our 747-400s and 747-200s are paid the same as your 777s. We are the ones should be crying about stiffed pay for bigger equipment. Can we all stop fighting now??

Absolutely. "Parity" for the 747-400 means they get a 6.5% raise.

 

[Going2Baja]

We need DEETS!!!

Thanks for posting - Call me stupid - But what's "DEETS?"

Also - Anyone have any idea on the SLI as it relates to NWA furloughees on a bypass? I see the no longevity during bypass but what about continuing the bypass and returning once things shake out?

Can any DAL guys post A/C bids out of west coast and current seniority in years and is SNA a co-domicile for LAX?

Thanks - Baja.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Read the SLI No Prejudice letter on your respective ALPA boards. It may clear up a few concerns.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

There are LOA's on your MEC's ALPA board that you need to read. They will clear up a lot. It is about 150 pages total.
As for people on bypass. If there are no classes they have up to 14 years.

 

[Sedona16]

Lack of fences or preservation of current base is a deal breaker for me. Alot of this proposal is typical of guys at the top looking out for themselves. Its also apparent the Northwest guys will be double dipping with the funding of pensions continuing for a few years.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

New hires are out of LAX, etc. They are on both the 73N and the 767. Not sure about the ER. But you can hold it. With the growth that is sure to come out there, it may in fact become a junior base on the bottom end of the list.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Lack of fences or preservation of current base is a deal breaker for me. Alot of this proposal is typical of guys at the top looking out for themselves. Its also apparent the Northwest guys will be double dipping with the funding of pensions continuing for a few years.

Is this the case with their DC plans not being on parity until later in the PWA?

 

[DTW320]

Lack of fences or preservation of current base is a deal breaker for me. Alot of this proposal is typical of guys at the top looking out for themselves. Its also apparent the Northwest guys will be double dipping with the funding of pensions continuing for a few years.

Is this the case with their DC plans not being on parity until later in the PWA?

I need to see complete language but this is from a Council 1 update:

Retirement: For NWA pilots, DC contributions rise to 14% by the end
of the contract. We get the same increases as DAL pilots, but our current
6% will rise to meet DAL's current 11% over the life of the contract.
Target DC is currently planned to sunset around 12/31/2013.

In other words, NWA pilots did NOT get day 1 parity on the DC plan.

As for pension funding, it will continue for more than a few years unless the new DAL goes BK and distress terminates it. Under pension law you can't terminate a DB plan outside of BK unless it is fully funded first. The recent legislation makes it far easier to meet funding requirements than before, especially since benefits are frozen and are not growing.

 

[Texx]

That it is. It is good protection. I am not saying that there will be a furlough, all I am saying is that the bottom new hires will be easier to be furloughed. There will be seats at Compass for them and it will in essence cost the company nothing. Granted the company needs this flexibility, it just stinks when you may be the flex.
The other protections are fine and dandy, but this one really has teeth.
Not that we should or need to get in to an SLI discussion, but from my perspective it looks clear on how the bottom of the list MAY be done. (Not I know that is clear as mud, but there is a reason for that)

So what would happen to the newhires at DAL that didn't meet the mins for ATP? What are the mins for someone to upgrade to CPT at Compass? What if the flowback pilot didn't meet them?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Everyone here meets ATP mins. I can promise you that. If for some reason they do not have an ATP it would be because they are on the 88. Everyone else gets it flying the 737 and above. ICAO requirements make it that a typed FO (not SIC) hold an ATP.
Even the 2000 hr pilots here meet or exceed the requirements of 2 for 1 PIC time.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

If you quote quote correctly. The first part is not mine.
What I was stating was that yes, your DC does not meet our until later in the PWA. The reason for this is the DB shortfall that DAL will have to payout.

 

[Sinca3]

This entire section of the NWA PWA comes over to benefit all of us, and remains intact with the sale of Compass as well. Personally I think this is a far greater incentive not to furlough than the flimsy "due to merger activities" in the JPWA and LOA 19.

And what if they shut Compass down and give Republic the a/c and or equivolent amount of flying???

 

[DTW320]

If you quote quote correctly. The first part is not mine.

Hey, I just hit the quote button to reply. Relax. Are you concerned that folks who have you on ignore will not get the proper context? BTW, YOU didn't quote at all. Maybe if you did people would know who said what in YOUR posts. K?

What I was stating was that yes, your DC does not meet our until later in the PWA. The reason for this is the DB shortfall that DAL will have to payout.

Really? What info do you have about that being the reason that we don't? This is also from the Council 1 update:

Our guidance to the Negotiating Committee was that NWA pilots must be under the same economic benefits as DAL pilots from day 1. We achieved that goal for pay rates, but did not achieve it for DC contributions. No excuses, and no explanations allowed from management. Management held back on this one item 'just because.' Economically it was not justified by our frozen DB plan, Target DC or excess benefit plan.

 

[Superpilot92]

Edit: scratch that, I read the Compass CBA again. You get paid the lesser of the above or NWA longevity. A year-one NW/DL pilot who got displaced to FO at Compass would be making Step 1 pay...$23.59/hr. Yep, it sucks and it's ridiculously low for a 76 seat airplane...but NW ALPA negotiated it, thank them.

Thats not true. NWA/DAL get longevity regardless now since thats DAL policy to accrue longevity on furlough. IF a person flows back so much to have to got to the right seat at compass you get year 4 pay. Once recalls start, IF they keep you back at Compass for "operational necessity" you get the greater of pay (NWA pay or CPZ pay) until allowed to go back to NWA.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I have a question for you.

Why else would they not give you full parity from Day 1?
Personally I thought it was a little weird.

 

[Superpilot92]

Lack of fences or preservation of current base is a deal breaker for me. Alot of this proposal is typical of guys at the top looking out for themselves. Its also apparent the Northwest guys will be double dipping with the funding of pensions continuing for a few years.

12-18 month fences on all aircraft and flying because of SOC timeline. Voting NO on pay raises, QOL improvements as well as making a stronger company for us all, while the rest of the industry is in a nosedive is moronic IMHO.

 

[Superpilot92]

And what if they shut Compass down and give Republic the a/c and or equivolent amount of flying???

1) provisions in place to prevent the sale of CPZ now.

2) The Flow agreement is now transfered where ever a company goes.

 

[DashTrash400]

Thats not true. NWA/DAL get longevity regardless now since thats DAL policy to accrue longevity on furlough. IF a person flows back so much to have to got to the right seat at compass you get year 4 pay. Once recalls start, IF they keep you back at Compass for "operational necessity" you get the greater of pay (NWA pay or CPZ pay) until allowed to go back to NWA.

Hmm okay, I'm guessing you know something in the PWA/LOA19/JPWA that supercedes the Compass CBA. Here's a cut-and-paste from section 3.D.1 of the Compass CBA:

1. The initial pay step for Northwest Airlines Flow Down pilots will be based on the lesser of:
a. Step 2 for Captains and Step 4 for First Officers, or
b. Accrued Northwest longevity.

 

[DashTrash400]

Yep, you don't have to take it either. And GASP!!You could get furloughed from Compass if the furloughs went deep enough. Who knew that you weren't guaranteed a job for life?!?!!

The fact remains that a flowback DAL pilot goes to the left seat of a E175 as seniority #1 at Compass. A FACT that didn't exist for DAL pilots prior to the JPWA. And yes, NWALPA negotiated it originally. Thank them? You're welcome.

Whoa big feller, no need to be a db about it. I was fully aware that I could get displaced by a NW guy when I took the job and I'm prepared for it; I'm basing my plans on being furloughed within a year. I personally think the NW guys were morons to allow E175s anywhere but mainline, but then you were in BK and had your backs to the walls so I guess it's good that at least you negotiated the right to those seats for your furloughed pilots. HOWEVER, that done, NW ALPA then went and voluntarily negotiated a rather subpar contract with subpar payrates for 70+ seat aircraft, thus giving NWA management all the more reason to transfer flying to Compass as well as condemning future furloughees to work under a worse contract than Republic. Not super farsighted, IMHO....

edit: on second reading I realize you were responding as though I am a Delta guy....I'm not, I'm CPS.

 

[Superpilot92]

Hmm okay, I'm guessing you know something in the PWA/LOA19/JPWA that supercedes the Compass CBA. Here's a cut-and-paste from section 3.D.1 of the Compass CBA:

Thats misleading when it speaks of accrued NWA seniority. NWA prior to the merger couldnt accrue seniority on furlough regardless of flowback. That may be speaking of accrued seniority meaning pay rate at NWA. I have spoken with ALPA reps and the way its understood is if you go to Compass as a CA you go at 2nd year CA pay if you flow all the way back to FO you go back at 4th year pay. At no time will you ever make 1st year CPZ FO pay.

 

[DashTrash400]

We have four furloughs at CPS right now. One of them did both my initial IOE & CA IOE, and he told me he started on year one pay at CPS because he was first-year when furloughed from NW. I didn't understand why until I read the fine print in the CBA just now. Whether the definition of accrued longevity has changed or not, the fact remains that someone who has been at DL or NW less than a year when furloughed will flow down to CPS at first year pay.