Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[johnsonrod]

A good Delta buddy of mine attended an LEC meeting and heard some interesting tidbits about the merger negotiation:

- Equity - about $1 billion in equity would have been offered the pilots equating to roughly $100K apiece

- NWA work rules would have equalled Delta's, necessitating an additional 200 newhires alone for work rule changes

- Pay increases: for DAL pilots alone: 7% first year increase then 4% the 2nd year, 4% the 3rd year and 4% for the fourth year

- NWA would have had a 15% pay raise during the first year to come up to Delta's level.

The merger negotiating committees involved the following:

- For Delta: 3 total Delta pilots (2 MD88 PICs and one 767ER FO)

- For NWA: The Chairman of the NWA committee was a 56-year old former Republic pilot. Their committee had 3 pilots, 2 alternates and 10 observers. So, it was 3 Delta pilots on one side and 15 NWA pilots on the other.

Evidently, it all came down to the NWA Merger Committee Chairman (former Republic "Greenbook") who had a lot of influence on the outcome and may have scuttled the deal (maybe he had his own agenda). So, he was apparently very aggressive and may have been largely responsible for neither pilot group gaining the above-mentioned improvements. Way to go!!!!!

Just think about the improvements mentioned above - do you think either pilot group will see those improvements individually in the near term with $110+ oil? It's not going to get any easier for either pilot group.

It's true that my info is 2nd hand info - has anyone heard a different story or perspective? Can anyone confirm this?

 

[~~~^~~~]

That account roughly matches what I heard. For some categories the pay raises would have been more. For example the 757&767 are the same rate at DL.

In other details the story seems a little off, with NWA sending a small Platoon to deliver their demands. But, it could be.

The rumors regarding SLI proposals all over the board seem to be accurate.

 

[Bigoober]

In terms of number showing up for the meeting....it sounds a lot like the Air Force and Navy showing up to negotiate. Won't take long to figure out who had the larger number! Of course, the larger number usually got its way deservedly so.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Johnny rod
Seems that what your rumoring is a bunch of, well, rumors....
The "Republic" guys are a bunch of very senior guys. '77 DOH. They would sit at the top of the world's largest airline. Do u think that if it was such a good deal, he would have bit on it? Think about that!!!!
Anyways, what is it to you? Are you part of this deal? DAL or NWA?
The way I see it, it is a good deal for all if the company grew for ever. If there is any kind of slowdown or stagnation, the NWA guys loose big. The only solution I see is, a buyout of the top 1100 guys at NWA and then straight DOH. I am willing to give all my equity in the new company for that.

I am wiling to give a bit to gain a lot....

 

[FDJ2]

The only solution I see is, a buyout of the top 1100 guys at NWA and then straight DOH. I am willing to give all my equity in the new company for that.

I am wiling to give a bit to gain a lot....

The DAL pilots already gave at the office. Your opportunity to buy out the most senior amongst you came and went. Don't ask the DAL pilots to pick up part of the tab.

Each pilot list is what it is. If you have an issue with retirements 5-10 years from now we have issues giving the largest part of the pay raise to NWA pilots today along with an equal equity claim for all, we have an issue with bringing a disproportionate amount of the premium flying positions to the merger yet sharing it equally, we have a problem bringing aircraft deliveries today to the merger versus planned retirement of aircraft.

It can go on and on. It's a recipe for arbitrated settlements and no input, no contractual gains today, no equity today, no stronger more viable employer today and into the future.

You want to address your issue, but ignore the fact that there are other issues out there.

This type of bickering is exactly what the DAL merger committee was instructed to avoid, thus the offer of relative seniority, not the end zone dance of the NWALPA merger committee.

The entire deal was doomed from the beginning when you introduce a committee into a process which requires a negotiated outcome, but the individuals in the committee have a perfect track record going back 2 decades of never achieving a negotiated outcome. What is it 26 arbitrations, 0 negotiated outcomes?

This was an option that was made available to create a stronger more viable growing airline for all, with contractual gains which exceeded bankruptcy negotiated concessions and money in our pockets today. The option was rejected. No sweat, hopefully we go our seperate ways and both do well in the future.

 

[JAM-BRO]

The DAL pilots already gave at the office.

Yeap, DAL pilots gave when 2500 pilots ret 2 yrs ago.

Your opportunity to buy out the most senior amongst you came and went. Don't ask the DAL pilots to pick up part of the tab.

My thought was to use NWA pilot's equity to buy out our own guys. I was not asking the DAL side tp pay for it.

Each pilot list is what it is. If you have an issue with retirements 5-10 years from now we have issues giving the largest part of the pay raise to NWA pilots today along with an equal equity claim for all, we have an issue with bringing a disproportionate amount of the premium flying positions to the merger yet sharing it equally, we have a problem bringing aircraft deliveries today to the merger versus planned retirement of aircraft.

There you go again with the thinking that we do not contribute anything to this merger. We have more AC on order than you guys. Are your 767s and MDs never going to replaced? Many of them are looking a bit raggedy. Come on!!!

It can go on and on. It's a recipe for arbitrated settlements and no input, no contractual gains today, no equity today, no stronger more viable employer today and into the future.

You want to address your issue, but ignore the fact that there are other issues out there.

This type of bickering is exactly what the DAL merger committee was instructed to avoid, thus the offer of relative seniority, not the end zone dance of the NWALPA merger committee.

I have not seen what the offers to merge the lists look like from either side. Have you? Doubt it. If you do, lots of us would like to know what they were. So please, give details. I have heard details of the joint contract because that has already been negotiated.

The entire deal was doomed from the beginning when you introduce a committee into a process which requires a negotiated outcome, but the individuals in the committee have a perfect track record going back 2 decades of never achieving a negotiated outcome. What is it 26 arbitrations, 0 negotiated outcomes?

I have been here 10 yrs and I have not been part of any arbitrated settlement. In that time, we have had 4 different contracts in 1998, 2002, 2004 and 2007. They have all been negotiated, not arbitrated. In 2007 we had a judge with a gun in his hand affecting our 'strategy'. Since 2007, we have had 3 rounds of contract improvements. All have been negotiated. Is the arbitration track record you are referring to, have anything to do with Red/Green issues? I think so. So far, it has not affected me.

This was an option that was made available to create a stronger more viable growing airline for all, with contractual gains which exceeded bankruptcy negotiated concessions and money in our pockets today. The option was rejected. No sweat, hopefully we go our seperate ways and both do well in the future.

So be it...

Later

 

[AA717driver]

Maybe, just maybe, the NWA guys weren't going to accept the unacceptable for a little (relatively speaking) cash and the "privilege" of being a Delta Pilot.

You don't have to have 'insertion' to know you're gonna get F#@ked! TC

 

[DAL737FO]

It doesn't matter since we aren't even talking anymore. I hate giving our management credit, but it looks like they learned from the AAA/AWA merger and are not going to push this without a prenup.

 

[FBN0223]

It doesn't matter since we aren't even talking anymore. I hate giving our management credit, but it looks like they learned from the AAA/AWA merger and are not going to push this without a prenup.

Most pilots at NW and I assume Delta are relieved that this merger is on hold.

 

[DrewBlows]

Here's a hypothetical.

Let's say you are an NWA middle of the list 757 FO. Your are given a choice between slightly better work rules right away, a raise from $98 to $109 per hour, $100,000, and significant possibility of career stagnation or you can keep your work rules, continue to make $98 per hour, and upgrade when the guys above you retire and 787 deliveries start (two to three years) making $144 per hour. What would you do?

For comparative purposes the break even point for a three year upgrade in the above scenario is about 3.5 years; two year upgrade is about 2.5 years.

 

[formerdal]

Later

You guys are amazing...if you think any of those approaching age 60 guys are going to retire you're nuts. Mark my words those retirements you are counting on will not begin for at least 5 years!!

No to mention the assumption that any of us will still be in business.

GOOD LUCK...

 

[Diesel-9]

Just saw NWA retirement numbers. JAN/FEB had 20-25 each month. Last 3 months of 2007 saw 25-30 a month retire in the 57+ age range.

 

[DTW320]

You guys are amazing...if you think any of those approaching age 60 guys are going to retire you're nuts. Mark my words those retirements you are counting on will not begin for at least 5 years!!

No to mention the assumption that any of us will still be in business.

GOOD LUCK...

Wrong. Even before the frozen pension and lower payrates, retirement totals were running twice the age 60 mandatory retirements. Now, an age 60 can retire with his frozen 6 figure pension plus lump sum from the excess plan vs continuing to work for not a whole lot more than that Sure some don't have a life and will stay, but I have not met a single one that doesn't say it would be crazy to stay past 60. So, yeah, I guess I am "nuts"

 

[ewarning]

What pilots say

Wrong. Even before the frozen pension and lower payrates, retirement totals were running twice the age 60 mandatory retirements. Now, an age 60 can retire with his frozen 6 figure pension plus lump sum from the excess plan vs continuing to work for not a whole lot more than that Sure some don't have a life and will stay, but I have not met a single one that doesn't say it would be crazy to stay past 60. So, yeah, I guess I am "nuts"

DTW,

Large numbers of senior pilots say that retirement is the only option, until they approach the cliff and most will not jump off until they are forced to. Granted only time will tell.

In the words of Gordon Geko, "Greed is good!"

E

 

[Gunfighter]

Here's a hypothetical.

Let's say you are an NWA middle of the list 757 FO. Your are given a choice between slightly better work rules right away, a raise from $98 to $109 per hour, $100,000, and significant possibility of career stagnation or you can keep your work rules, continue to make $98 per hour, and upgrade when the guys above you retire and 787 deliveries start (two to three years) making $144 per hour. What would you do?

I'd take the bird in hand. NWA still benefits from the retirements, although on a diluted percentage. Additionally they benefit from immediate deliveries of DAL airplanes. It looks like good risk mitigation to me.

 

[JimBo480]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

 

[johnsonrod]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

How did binding arbitration work for USAirways?

 

[Noserider76]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

Yeah, arbitration works well. Look how it worked for US/AWA. An arbitrated settlement would also probably negate the bennies the company is offering for a early resolution. I think arbitration gives the NW guys a chance to try and get their plan through without the DL pilots voting on it. With a negotiated settlement both sides get to vote. Hey, maybe the senior NW guys don't want the rest of their list to be able to vote on it either.

If there has to be a deal and there has to be screwing let's screw the senior guys for a change:0.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yeah, arbitration works well. Look how it worked for US/AWA. An arbitrated settlement would also probably negate the bennies the company is offering for a early resolution.

Ya think? <--sarcasm...

I think arbitration gives the NW guys a chance to try and get their plan through without the DL pilots voting on it.

"their plan"? Arbitration is NO plan! There is NO control in arbitration. NONE!

The reasons you go to arbitration are:

1. You're afraid your fingerprints will be on the deal...and a group of your pilots will hate you. In some circles it's referred to "Lack-A-Sack Syndrome". If your constituency includes a bunch of sticker-making, mouth-breathing idiots, you don't want to rile them. You don't because you're a wussie.

2. You think an arbitrator will give you nothing worse than what the other side is proposing...and MIGHT just give you your proposal. The causes of this can be many. Perhaps the other side refuses to acknowledge the reasons you have prioritized the way you have.

3. Failure to engage. Outside events can force the issue to an arbitrator if both sides believe they have more time to reach a deal than they actually have.

With a negotiated settlement both sides get to vote. Hey, maybe the senior NW guys don't want the rest of their list to be able to vote on it either.

Maybe you're right. You aren't...but maybe.

If there has to be a deal and there has to be screwing let's screw the senior guys for a change.

Fer sure! <--more sarcasm.

This isn't the first significant decision point/event in either airlines history. Quit giving yourself credit for "been there...done that". You haven't... The senior pilots have been to wars you've only read about. They've lived it.

If you aren't viewing this with a 360-degree horizon, you're buying into the "me! me! me!" attitude you rail against.

This deal is hung up over the futures of the junior pilots. Period.

 

[Noserider76]

Ya think? <--sarcasm...

"their plan"? Arbitration is NO plan! There is NO control in arbitration. NONE!

The reasons you go to arbitration are:

1. You're afraid your fingerprints will be on the deal...and a group of your pilots will hate you. In some circles it's referred to "Lack-A-Sack Syndrome". If your constituency includes a bunch of sticker-making, mouth-breathing idiots, you don't want to rile them. You don't because you're a wussie.

2. You think an arbitrator will give you nothing worse than what the other side is proposing...and MIGHT just give you your proposal. The causes of this can be many. Perhaps the other side refuses to acknowledge the reasons you have prioritized the way you have.

3. Failure to engage. Outside events can force the issue to an arbitrator if both sides believe they have more time to reach a deal than they actually have.



Maybe you're right. You aren't...but maybe.



Fer sure! <--more sarcasm.

This isn't the first significant decision point/event in either airlines history. Quit giving yourself credit for "been there...done that". You haven't... The senior pilots have been to wars you've only read about. They've lived it.

If you aren't viewing this with a 360-degree horizon, you're buying into the "me! me! me!" attitude you rail against.

This deal is hung up over the futures of the junior pilots. Period.

The last part there was just a bad joke on my part. The DL guys have gone out of their way to take care of the junior guys on the list through all the negotiations, BK, and furloughs as much as humanly possible. I thank them for that.

How bout we take the 3 DL guys and the 3 best guys from NW and lock them in a room with 3 bottles of tequila for a weekend? You're not coming out until the tequila is gone and you have a deal.