Delta might offer CRJ70's to Mainline

[avrodriver]

I'm not trying to piss anyone off here....and trust me I understand as a regional guy currently starting back over at the bottom how important future a/c orders are so we can all move up the list, but I keep hearing the ASA/Comair guys saying "now you want my job", they don't want your job, they want to create new jobs for the guys that are on the street. Be reasonable, what do you propose Delta do with them? Those planes aren't anyone's to claim. I honestly think why do they want the 70 seater anyway......they are going to have to pay two flight attendants and two Delta pilot's a never before seen "regional rate" anyway, why not increase the revenue and trade the planes on option for 90 seaters instead, any reasoning to that General?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ok, lets get this straight. When I hired in my airline operated four engine jets up to 105 seats. We could have unlimited RJ's 70 seats, whatever.

Currently we are limited to 1/2 an order of 57 CRJ700's and we are shrinking this year dues to EMB120 retirements and ALPA just sent me an e-mail telling me to revise my bid because it is likely I will get displaced to the right seat.

I fly a aircraft with more than 50 seats. My union President is running around calling for a "natural dividing line" at 50 seats and the Delta MEC Chairman threatened an ALPA EVP with "taking your 70 seaters."

These are the facts. Clearly a trend is developing. As a result of my union's bargaining I may lose my seat this year. It has nothing to do with the performance of my airline, we have done great this year.

Obviously my contract has been violated. And yes, for the record I have filed a grievance. It will be interesting to see how Fly Delta Jets' proposed remedy to have me thrown out of the union goes, since my grievance quotes the same parts of the Constitution and Bylaws.

If my actions violate his scope, then his actions violate mine. I do not hold that the Delta MEC has the right to negotiate my wages and working conditions with my employer without my representation. In my view, it is not a contract because the parties to the contract never participated, or ratified it.

However, there are reasons that this whole 70 seat thread may be moot. If Delta had one CRJ700, they could displace all 360 (?) pilots who have nothing to fly now, but will be paid anyway to sit. If there was a CRJ700 with a low pay rate, Delta would save a budle by not having to pay MD88 rates while these guys sit at home. As we well know DALPA is not big on any action that reduces dues monies - one CRJ700 would be a large net loss to the Delta pilot group. I don't even think Delta would have to train them to displace them. I'll let Fly Delta Jets explain what is wrong with this scenario...

 

[~~~^~~~]

You're interpretation is incorrect. ALPA revised their motion because this is a fluid environment, and things change. One thing that changed is the new scope limits were set, which changed a portion of the motion. Read into it however you will. You will still lose, and even if you were to win, we're out of here. We'll start our own union, keep our scop clause, and tell you to go pound sand.

Nothing changed since the 29th of January. Some body is chewing on a hooey sandwich and swallowing every bite. Who feeds you this stuff? When it is appropriate I will post details and I saved your post for my "I told you so" file. Do you like your crow straight, or with bar B que sauce?

And did you include your threat to leave the union with your grievance to have me and thousands of other anonymous supporters thrown out for trying to restore it?

And... I love it. JC Lawson asks for the Delta MEC to address "brand scope" and you object. Maybe you should try to get Duane Woerth tossed out too, because he asked for the same thing.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Fins,

With all due respect, if your actions are indicitive of what you consider a "team player", I would just as soon not have you on my team.

P.S.
If you would like to know where I got my information about ALPA changing its motion, please read the "what's new" section of your joke of a lawsuits homepage. If something has happened since then, I have to admit ignorance. Since I do not stand to gain $12,000,000 (the sum demanded for EVERY comair pilot), I don't keep up on it as much as I should.

 

[sleepy]

I'm not trying to piss anyone off here....and trust me I understand as a regional guy currently starting back over at the bottom how important future a/c orders are so we can all move up the list, but I keep hearing the ASA/Comair guys saying "now you want my job", they don't want your job, they want to create new jobs for the guys that are on the street. Be reasonable, what do you propose Delta do with them? Those planes aren't anyone's to claim. I honestly think why do they want the 70 seater anyway......they are going to have to pay two flight attendants and two Delta pilot's a never before seen "regional rate" anyway, why not increase the revenue and trade the planes on option for 90 seaters instead, any reasoning to that General?

The 90 seat CRJ has poor performance and does not carry enough cargo to be economical at mainline payrates.

 

[sleepy]

Ok, lets get this straight. When I hired in my airline operated four engine jets up to 105 seats. We could have unlimited RJ's 70 seats, whatever.

Currently we are limited to 1/2 an order of 57 CRJ700's and we are shrinking this year dues to EMB120 retirements and ALPA just sent me an e-mail telling me to revise my bid because it is likely I will get displaced to the right seat.

I fly a aircraft with more than 50 seats. My union President is running around calling for a "natural dividing line" at 50 seats and the Delta MEC Chairman threatened an ALPA EVP with "taking your 70 seaters."

These are the facts. Clearly a trend is developing. As a result of my union's bargaining I may lose my seat this year. It has nothing to do with the performance of my airline, we have done great this year.

Obviously my contract has been violated. And yes, for the record I have filed a grievance. It will be interesting to see how Fly Delta Jets' proposed remedy to have me thrown out of the union goes, since my grievance quotes the same parts of the Constitution and Bylaws.

If my actions violate his scope, then his actions violate mine. I do not hold that the Delta MEC has the right to negotiate my wages and working conditions with my employer without my representation. In my view, it is not a contract because the parties to the contract never participated, or ratified it.

However, there are reasons that this whole 70 seat thread may be moot. If Delta had one CRJ700, they could displace all 360 (?) pilots who have nothing to fly now, but will be paid anyway to sit. If there was a CRJ700 with a low pay rate, Delta would save a budle by not having to pay MD88 rates while these guys sit at home. As we well know DALPA is not big on any action that reduces dues monies - one CRJ700 would be a large net loss to the Delta pilot group. I don't even think Delta would have to train them to displace them. I'll let Fly Delta Jets explain what is wrong with this scenario...

What scope does Comair have that controls any DAL flying? Please post the contract language here.

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,

You are grasping at straws. No one really knows what Delta and Dalpa might negotiate. Sure, the 90 seater may not carry the right amount of cargo for "mainline wages." Who cares? Also, do you really think Dalpa would negotiate a rate that would be too expensive right now for Delta? They would never go for anything if it was. Dalpa would negotiate a fair rate and some dues are better than no dues for the ALPA coffers. IF there were a limited number of 70 seaters added to a subsidiary, then that would allow the wheels of motion to start getting the furloughs back. If United goes Chap 7, I read that Delta MAY be interested in a SFO base or some INTL routes with new 777's being a part of the picture. Well, that would ramp up training again and the end result would be an additional 50 or so 70 seaters under our wing. That is something Dalpa has wanted for a long time--large RJs. They are still pissed that they didn't get some sort of rein on the RJ's back in the early 90's. Right now they want to do something for the furloughs--which really translates in doing something for themselves. Don't count this out, and this next Tuesday Dalpa is meeting with Management to "look over" the state of Delta---and I am sure they will start asking for $$ and relief. We won't do it for nothing---we will benefit somehow. They don't care who flies the RJ's---as long as the pay rates are reasonable. Our rates could be slightly higher---but that would be in exchange for an extra 50 or so 70 seaters that they NEVER would have had (atleast until past 2005). It will be interesting---and all I have to say is "Thanks Lawson!"

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sleepy]

Sleepy,

You are grasping at straws. No one really knows what Delta and Dalpa might negotiate. Sure, the 90 seater may not carry the right amount of cargo for "mainline wages." Who cares? Also, do you really think Dalpa would negotiate a rate that would be too expensive right now for Delta? They would never go for anything if it was. Dalpa would negotiate a fair rate and some dues are better than no dues for the ALPA coffers. IF there were a limited number of 70 seaters added to a subsidiary, then that would allow the wheels of motion to start getting the furloughs back. If United goes Chap 7, I read that Delta MAY be interested in a SFO base or some INTL routes with new 777's being a part of the picture. Well, that would ramp up training again and the end result would be an additional 50 or so 70 seaters under our wing. That is something Dalpa has wanted for a long time--large RJs. They are still pissed that they didn't get some sort of rein on the RJ's back in the early 90's. Right now they want to do something for the furloughs--which really translates in doing something for themselves. Don't count this out, and this next Tuesday Dalpa is meeting with Management to "look over" the state of Delta---and I am sure they will start asking for $$ and relief. We won't do it for nothing---we will benefit somehow. They don't care who flies the RJ's---as long as the pay rates are reasonable. Our rates could be slightly higher---but that would be in exchange for an extra 50 or so 70 seaters that they NEVER would have had (atleast until past 2005). It will be interesting---and all I have to say is "Thanks Lawson!"

Bye Bye---General Lee

Question, If DAL buys part of UAL, Won't those UAL pilots that come with the aircraft be integrated into the DALPA list. How would that help you bring the furloughs back, since most of the UAL pilots would be senior to them on the integrated list? Doesn't the ALPA merger policy apply?

I am not opposed to your getting the RJ. I believe it will help ASA with pay and benefits in the long run. I just don't think they will want the 90 seater by Canadair. I have been told by some in our training department that DAL is not interested in it, that is all.
You can have all of the RJ's you want, as long as you don't mess with our's (ASA).

How does Lawson play into this?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Benefits

Dear General,

As we at US Airways found out while trying to negotiate Gangwal's "Plan B From Outer Space", a mainline regional jet product was challenging to negotiate.

The reason, as I'm sure you are aware, was that pilot compensation was only a fraction of the costs associated with operation.

More specifically it was the compensation and benefit packages of each and ever mainline employee which made the RJ non-competitive as a mainline product.

First and foremost. Lets assume that all other factors remain equal, you will agree that the Delta benefit package is far superior to anything offered by Comair, ASA, etc. Your retirement contributions, health-care etc amount to approximately 40% of your total compensation. Comair's are good -- but everyone knows that the pot-o'-gold at the mainline job is the retirement. As such, in order to have equal costs at Comair/ASA and Delta on a similar airframe, you would have to start with a pay-rate that is less than that which Comair/ASA pays. Your benefits have a dollar value which would need to be subtracted.

But even if you worked for free, (so Stephen Wolf preached to us...) the product could not be competitive. Pilots are the only employee group at the airline who are paid different rates when they work on different equipment.

Flight attendants, gate-agents, ramp-agents, aircraft cleaners, caterers, dispatchers, schedulers, -- you name it, all cost more at Delta Airlines due to the differential in pay and benefits at the mainline.

The only solutions, as you have suggested, would be:
#1. Hire furloughed Delta pilots at existing subsidiaries, or
#2. Start a new subsidiary staffed by furloughed Delta pilots, and hire support staff at competitive regional pay/benefit levels.

As you have seen if you've been following MidAtlantic's progress (or lack thereof) it is a difficult environment in which to start a new airline -- and a time consuming endeavour. Song, like Metrojet, is an airline-within-an-airline. I'd be somewhat surprised if DALPA would allow "Dance" to be a part of Delta-mainline, since common-fleet types with Connection carriers could come back to bite them down the road.

Why not tell the DALPA MEC chairman to go back to the Comair MEC and simply negotiate with them? Certainly it wasnt a take-it or leave-it offer... there's wiggle room on both sides... isnt there?

Good luck, regardless. To you and all of the 11,000 furloughed pilots undustrywide.

Furloughed Again

 

[General Lee]

Furloughedagain,

I also want all of the airlines furloughed pilots back in the cockpit as soon as possible---you included. The Comair MEC really struck a nerve with not only our MEC, but every Delta pilot---and that is a fact. We know how they feel about us, and they know how we feel about them. A friend of mine's wife is a flight attendant at a regional airline. She was riding in the hotel van with her crew and a Comair crew. My friend's wife asked the Comair female Capt if Comair was going to hire furloughed Delta pilots---to which she replied, "No, they never supported us in the strike." After more probing my friend's wife asked, "Are you sure they never supported you at all?" The Capt repeated, "None whatsoever." My friend's wife--who is married to a Delta pilot---finally said, "That's funny, I distinctly remember personally writing out checks at about $50.00 a month for my husband---supporting your strike...." The Comair Capt was dumbstruck. This is how it really is out there. They have no clue that we helped them the best we could at the time (with Pres Bush watching), and now they can't help us again. I am not going to get into this again with everyone, but that is how we feel. Going back to the Comair MEC is not a choice, and maybe our MEC can come up with a deal with Delta to create a subsidiary with 70 seaters---and start to get our furloughs back in the seat. I know USAir is doing the J4J thing, and I believe Delta can actually afford to get their own RJ's and add to the scope relief.

Sleepy,

If we buy planes etc. AFTER UAL goes chap7, then their pilots do not come with them. (I.E.--we buy or lease from the lessor directly) There is NO WAY our Union would take on more pilots (especially with DOH) with 1060 pilots out. After we bring back the furloughs and start bringing on ASA pilots, then we might take some UAL people etc. The bankers do not care about employees, only money. The airlines with the highest bids get the goods, and we have the most borrowing power for INTL routes etc.. (Yes, Southwest and maybe Jetblue could borrow a lot too---but highly unlikely---but they may go after all of the A320's and 737-300's etc... which could make them bigger too)


Bye Bye---General Lee