Delta guys please explain

[Birdstrike]

Yah, I Do.

Posted by Vortilon "...Do you really think your are worth a piddly $40k per year to fly passenger jets? Managers at McDonalds make more than that..."

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What more needs to be said? I guess market dynamics, competition, efficiencies, and supply/demand principles have nothing to do with it. I'm worth what I'm worth!

What would happen to the McDonald's or Home Depot or Terminix Manager who said that?

But aye darn, I'm worth XXX and that's what I demand to be paid!!! Not a cent less, you hear? (and it's not just for me, it's for the unwashed masses that will come after me).

But what about the guy who will do your job for half of what you're asking? Hope is not a method and he isn't going away. He will always be there and in the end will factor strongly into what you end up making. Right? Skill is a commodity to be sold on the open market. It is not a freakin' birthright.

The emperor has no clothes. But he doesn't know it yet.

 

[TonyC]

TONY C you need to stop thinking everyone is jealous of your pay. We're proud of you bud! Nice job! Bravo! Just don't take away our pay in the process.

Jet

In the first place, I didn't say everyone... my remark was directed at goldentrout who seems to think the salvation of "his" airline lies in mainline pilots giving up 30% of their wages.

Second, I didn't say MY pay. I work for FedEx - - a far cry from Delta wages.

Anybody know what the Delta pilot wages are as a percentage of Total Operating Costs?? Anyone??

 

[no_land_3]

DMEC Chairman Speaks

EQUAL TIME: Delta's pilots always ready to do fair share
John J. Malone - For the Journal-Constitution
Monday, April 19, 2004

A few short years ago, Delta Air Lines was earning record profits amid a booming economy. Today, the airline is fighting for its survival and no one is more concerned than its employees, including the pilots. Unlike corporate executives who have taken their "retention" packages and moved on, the pilots are tied to this company.

Since Sept. 11, 2001, pilots have agreed to amend our contract many times to help Delta save money and compete. By waiving a portion of our contract, we allowed Delta to enter into a revenue-generating domestic code-share arrangement with Northwest and Continental. Another waiver permitted Delta to operate Song, an "airline within an airline." Thousands of U.S. troops were flown to war by Delta pilots after we amended our contract to make it easier for Delta to do this.

All of these concessions pale in comparison to the bailout package the pilots have been offering for almost a year. Our continual efforts to help over this period have been met with "all or nothing" demands from management. Regardless, we will continue to try to do our part to help the company.

Labor is just one part of the recovery equation. The pilots' union has offered hundreds of millions of dollars even though Delta has shown no evidence of a business plan that will enable it to compete effectively within the airline industry. Even those network carriers that have obtained worker concessions have yet to become profitable.

One only has to look at the losses incurred at United, American and U.S. Airways to see that labor alone cannot turn the tide. While it's easy to point to employee salaries, the "low hanging fruit," when a company is losing money, cutting labor costs alone is not the answer. An effective strategy must also include the elements that historically have set Delta apart from its competition, such as customer service and employee morale.

Much of the outcry over Delta's situation emanates from parties with absolutely no stake in the airline's recovery. We, the employees, have the most to lose should our airline not survive.

We didn't create the current situation, and only the most uninformed observer would conclude we can solve it by our givebacks alone.

We will continue to negotiate our participation in Delta's recovery as we always have --- in a businesslike manner, with the interests of the pilots, our fellow employees and our passengers foremost in mind.

John J. Malone, a Delta captain, chairs the airline's pilot union.

This column is solicited to provide another viewpoint to an AJC editorial published today. To respond to an AJC editorial, contact David Beasley at [email protected] or call 404-526-7371

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What he said.

land_on_3

 

[PCL_128]

In the first place, I didn't say everyone... my remark was directed at goldentrout who seems to think the salvation of "his" airline lies in mainline pilots giving up 30% of their wages.

Second, I didn't say MY pay. I work for FedEx - - a far cry from Delta wages.

Anybody know what the Delta pilot wages are as a percentage of Total Operating Costs?? Anyone??

Assuming an average pay per pilot of $150k/year, taking into account the 1000 pilots furloughed, the pilot payroll portion of the operating expenses is $901 million.

The total operating expenses of Delta is $13.3 billion. That would make the pilot payroll expenses 6.7% of the total operating expenses of the airline.

Now, if the pilots took a paycut of 20%, the new total pilot payroll expenses would be $720 million. A total savings each year of $181 million for the airline. That's about $45 million a quarter. In other words, it would barely dent the losses that Delta is taking.

Now, if the pilots decided to work for free, yes I said FREE, then Delta would save the total $901 million for the year. Delta is currently losing about $1.2 billion per year. That means that if the pilots worked for FREE, then delta would still be about $300 million in the red. That's right, if the pilots worked for nothing, then Delta would still not make money.

In other words Goldentrout, TonyC was right. Pilot pay cuts are not going to fix, or even significantly help the situation. Delta management needs to come up with some much better ideas quickly.

(most of the above information is available in the annual 10K report that Delta is required to make to the SEC. It is available on the Delta website.)

 

[jarhead]

What about the pension costs for all the retired DAL pilots? How much of the operating expense does that come to? Anyone know? I've heard it is substantial, and growing.

 

[goldentrout]

TonyC, PCL-28

I know you guys can read because you've made it pretty far in the aviation business.

Why do you keep saying I want the DAL pilots to take a 30% pay cut? (Never said that). Also, I never said pay give backs were the total solution to the problem (Did you even read my first post that laid out my plan, with pilot pay cuts as a part of that plan?)

DAL would save millions a quarter by parking their gas hogs and putting new, smaller more cost efficient planes on many of their routes. An MD-80 with 90 people on board is a big money loser. An RJ90 with 90 people on board is a big money maker.

So you get 45-50 million a quarter from the pilots. A few work rule changes saves you another 10 million a quarter. You stop losing money on $300 737/MD-88 tickets and start making money on RJ70/90 $300 tickets. Maybe you save another 50-75 million a quarter. You add more smaller, money making aircraft into appropriate markets. You offer more flight frequency, building more market share. That gets you another 30 million in revenue a quarter. That puts you at an annual savings/additional revenue of around 500 million.

In ain't just about the pilot salaries...it's about a comprehensive plan, of which the pilot salaries must be a big part.

By the way...do you know why DAL management is putting out "all or nothing" deals...BECAUSE THEY HOLD ALL THE CARDS! A smart man knows when he can and can't bluff. DAL pilots have NOTHING to bluff with right now, and DAL management knows this! If I was DAL management, I would like nothing more than to have the pilots sit on their big fats wallets right into bankruptcy. Then I void all my union contracts, put together my own contracts, based on my competitors contracts (remember that contract...10 days off, no trip or duty rig, 50% deadhead pay), and impose my "take it or we'll find someone else to do your job" deal.

And that Vortilon guy...I and my family carry a DAL pass card in our pockets...just like you and your family. I wear black pants with Gold stripes and my wings say "Delta Connection." You wear black pants with gold stripes and your wings say "Delta." The revenue I generate goes into the DAL bank account, just like the revenue you generate.

Like it or not, we are on the same team. Without RJ feed, DAL would be Tango Uniform in very short order (what was the estimate...DAL lost $500,000,000 during the 89 day Comair strike?)

And to top it off...my suggestion was that DAL pilots can come in on top of me with their date of hire at DAL...I just want to get them off the street, because I don't like to see my "team" members suffer.

PCL-28, TonyC, Vortilon...you guys should go back to the archives and see these same conversations I had with the UAL guys around Dec 2001.

Same crap "it's mangement's fault...we could work for free and nothing would change...our MEC has things under control...it's not as bad as it seems...you don't understand how this business works because you haven't been around long enough."

OK...let's see, it's been about 28 months since my chat with the UAL guys...their company is now in bankruptcy, they took a 30% pay cut, their contract is gutted, they have little to no trip or duty rigs, they get 10 days off on reserve, they get 50% deadhead pay, they've got close to 2000 guys on furlough, etc...

I'll just check back in another 24 months or so and we'll see who was right...but for now the score is...

Goldentrout 1

Mainline MECs 0

 

[TonyC]

TonyC, PCL-28

I know you guys can read because you've made it pretty far in the aviation business.

Why do you keep saying I want the DAL pilots to take a 30% pay cut? (Never said that).

You're right. Delta wants 30% - - take it or leave it. And enigma said 30%. But you said the salvation of Delta lies in a 20% pay cut and parking all the mainline gas-hogs. Since you wear "Delta pants," everyone ought to fly the same airplanes that you do, right?

In ain't just about the pilot salaries...it's about a comprehensive plan, of which the pilot salaries must be a big part.

AS I have said before, and has been recently demonstrated, pilot salaries are NOT a big part of the operating expenses, and will be but a minute part of any recovery plan.

By the way...do you know why DAL management is putting out "all or nothing" deals...BECAUSE THEY HOLD ALL THE CARDS! A smart man knows when he can and can't bluff. DAL pilots have NOTHING to bluff with right now, and DAL management knows this!

Let's see. If DAL management really thinks they're in trouble and bleeding too heavily, they'll ignore the Association's offer of an immediate pay cut followed by the the offer to forgo a 5% pay raise - - mind you it WILL go into effect if no action is taken - - just so they can wait for a 30% cut? I doubt it. If it's really all that bad, they take the immediate (effective) 15% cut and start working, negotiating for more. Apparently, they're content to let things ride as is.

If I was DAL management, I would like nothing more than to have the pilots sit on their big fats wallets right into bankruptcy. Then I void all my union contracts, put together my own contracts, based on my competitors contracts (remember that contract...10 days off, no trip or duty rig, 50% deadhead pay), and impose my "take it or we'll find someone else to do your job" deal.

So, if you were in management, you would put the corporation into bankruptcy so you could save the Company roughly 2.25% of its total operating expenses? I wonder what kind of golden parachute you'd be offered right before you were asked to resign.

...but for now the score is...

Goldentrout 1

Mainline MECs 0

You don't get to keep score until you start taking your meds.

 

[PCL_128]

TonyC, PCL-28

I know you guys can read because you've made it pretty far in the aviation business.

Why do you keep saying I want the DAL pilots to take a 30% pay cut? (Never said that). Also, I never said pay give backs were the total solution to the problem (Did you even read my first post that laid out my plan, with pilot pay cuts as a part of that plan?)

The problem is that once the pilots give the concessions, the company will not implement any other changes that will help the airline. The only thing the airline is talking about is pay cuts. They have no other solutions to the problems. Just like at UAL, AA, USAir, etc..., as soon as the pilots make concessions, the airline management will sit back and let the rest of the operation go on cruise control and the red ink will continue to flow. Airline management never follows concessions with any real solutions. They take the concessions, brag to their shareholders that they beat the evil unions, and then sit back and do nothing else. I would give no concessions until I see the other elements of any plan put into place.

DAL would save millions a quarter by parking their gas hogs and putting new, smaller more cost efficient planes on many of their routes. An MD-80 with 90 people on board is a big money loser. An RJ90 with 90 people on board is a big money maker.

I've got news for you: it takes money to buy or lease new airplanes. Delta is so debt-laden right now that it would be extremely difficult to secure financing for a lot of new airplanes.

But, let's assume that Delta could get financing for a bunch of CRJ-900s. Under the current scope, Delta can get as many 90 seaters as they want. They just have to give them to mainline pilots to fly. There is nothing to stop Delta management from getting 90 seat airplanes if they think it is the best airplane for the market. All they have to do is call some of the 1060 off of furlough. I'm sure they would be happy to fly them. How 'bout it TKbane, would you like to fly a CRJ-900 at mainline?

By the way...do you know why DAL management is putting out "all or nothing" deals...BECAUSE THEY HOLD ALL THE CARDS! A smart man knows when he can and can't bluff. DAL pilots have NOTHING to bluff with right now, and DAL management knows this! If I was DAL management, I would like nothing more than to have the pilots sit on their big fats wallets right into bankruptcy. Then I void all my union contracts, put together my own contracts, based on my competitors contracts (remember that contract...10 days off, no trip or duty rig, 50% deadhead pay), and impose my "take it or we'll find someone else to do your job" deal.

Delta still has over $2 billion in cash on hand. At present losses it will take about 2 years to go through that much cash. If Delta management were to file bankruptcy with 2 billion (or 1 billion for that matter) in the bank, then shareholders would file plenty of lawsuits. GG isn't about to risk that just yet. I give it at least a year before that even becomes a remote option.

Even if bankruptcy were to happen, a judge has to approve any contract changes. Management can't just void the contract instantly by filing bankruptcy. ALPA isn't in as week of a position as you make out.

And that Vortilon guy...I and my family carry a DAL pass card in our pockets...just like you and your family. I wear black pants with Gold stripes and my wings say "Delta Connection." You wear black pants with gold stripes and your wings say "Delta." The revenue I generate goes into the DAL bank account, just like the revenue you generate.

Actually, he wears NAVY BLUE pants and gold stripes. If you're going to compare yourself to a Delta pilot at least get the freakin colors right. You are no more a Delta pilot than I am. Get over yourself.

And to top it off...my suggestion was that DAL pilots can come in on top of me with their date of hire at DAL...I just want to get them off the street, because I don't like to see my "team" members suffer.

This is just plain insulting. Guys like TKbane have already been where we are. They've done the regional thing and have moved on to bigger and better things. Do you really think he would give up his Delta number to come back to a regional again? Come on man, get serious. You continue to take what used to be his flying at much lower wages, and now you are going to "let" him come back to ASA? Again, it's just insulting.

PCL-28, TonyC, Vortilon...you guys should go back to the archives and see these same conversations I had with the UAL guys around Dec 2001.

What's your point? The guys at UAL gave huge concessions and liquidation can still be seen on the horizon. What good did it do Trout? They make less money and have a much lower QOL, and the airline still pours red ink. Using UAL as an example does not help your case.

 

[goldentrout]

PCL-28

First of all...DAL does wear black with gold strips...the whole idea of our uniforms at Delta Connection was to make the customers see a seamles transistion from DAL to DCI when they fly. The only difference in our uniforms is my winds say Delta Connection, and their wings say DAL.

TonyC...you wanted hard numbers for pilot expenses. Since we've all been estimating, here's what an airline analyst says.


from http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/04/18/biz_delta18.html

Pressing the case
Company officials and analysts see the pilot situation as the biggest problem.

"Pilot reductions alone won't make Delta profitable, but Delta will not become meaningfully profitable without such pilot reductions," Buttrick said.

Grinstein said in Wednesday's conference call that he has met with more than 1,000 pilots in town hall-style meetings to push his case, although he has yet to make his case to pilots here. The union includes nearly 7,400 pilots, including nearly 800 based in Cincinnati. The company is seeking a 30-plus percent pay cut along with productivity increases.

"Our main competitive disadvantage continues to be our pilot costs," said Grinstein, pointing out that the pilots are due to receive a 4.5 percent raise on May 1. "That continues to be the boulder weighing us down."

The pilots' union has countered with a proposal that calls for a 9 percent wage cut in addition to holding back the impending raises, an offer the union says could help Delta restructure its debt.

Union officials have said that they continue to be open for further negotiations. But they characterize the company's offer as being presented as "take it or leave it," which they say is unacceptable.

"In our analysis, the magnitude of the demand is not justified by the data we have been given," said union spokesman Chris Renkel. "We do acknowledge that our plan addresses the debt, which seems to be the $20 billion elephant no one seems to want to talk about."

Still, "we're just a phone call away." Renkel said.

How long this goes on is up to the pilots, Buttrick said, saying the company could be spending $50 million a month more on pilots than its nearest competitors.

"The sooner the pilots accept the marketplace reality, the smaller the concessions will have to be," he said. "The longer the wait, the deeper they have to be.

"That's just math."

Poison pill possible?
All the swirling problems have led many analysts to begin speculating about Delta's potential for entering bankruptcy. With nearly $2.2 billion in ready cash on hand, Buttrick said the company could survive at least the rest of this year and into next year.

Beyond that, he would say only that "Delta will not be OK after two years," a sentiment echoed by many other analysts in several reports issued this week.

Buttrick and others have openly asked about the potential of spinning off regional subsidiaries Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines, which could raise more cash, but Grinstein said the two airlines are "valuable parts of the Delta network."

Grinstein also told analysts he was committed to turning the company around without resorting to bankruptcy.

"I believe we can make Delta a great airline once more, and I believe we can do it without resorting to court-ordered restructuring," he said.

end of article

So there you have it...just as in Dec 2001...my conclusions are backed up by every those folks whose job it is to study the industry.

My points

1. DAL pilot wages are totally out of line with the market.

Analyst says....

"How long this goes on is up to the pilots, Buttrick said, saying the company could be spending $50 million a month more on pilots than its nearest competitors.

"The sooner the pilots accept the marketplace reality, the smaller the concessions will have to be," he said. "The longer the wait, the deeper they have to be."

"That's just math." (gosh I love it when I'm right...especially that part about "the longer they wait, the deeper they'll have to be"...told UAL78 the same thing back in early 2002...that the union should've gone to management immediately after 9/11 and began helping to save the company...of course I was told by the "old head experienced" guys that I didn't understand the industry, and that they need to "preserve the profession.")

2. Pilot wages are a part...but not the whole..solution

Analyst says...

"But the airline's problems don't stop with the pilots. Its credit is tapped out. Fares continue to be depressed, thanks to increased competition from low-cost carriers and price pressures from Internet shoppers."

"Pilot reductions alone won't make Delta profitable, but Delta will not become meaningfully profitable without such pilot reductions," Buttrick said."

Sounds to me like expensive gas hogs need to be parked. and some less expensieve, more profitable aircraft might be needed to make money off the lower fares (DAL just might be able to borrow some money to lease some aircraft if they were able to bring their cost structure down...the reason no banks will loan them anymore cash is they see exactly what I see...there is no way DAL can be competitive in the airline industry without a huge reduction in overhead costs.)

3. DAL has about 18 months left

Analyst says

"Poison pill possible?
All the swirling problems have led many analysts to begin speculating about Delta's potential for entering bankruptcy. With nearly $2.2 billion in ready cash on hand, Buttrick said the company could survive at least the rest of this year and into next year.

Beyond that, he would say only that "Delta will not be OK after two years," a sentiment echoed by many other analysts in several reports issued this week. "

I guessed 18 months...might have been off by a month or two.


You know...it's not that I'm so smart...it's that I read the analysts' predicitons about UAL and US Air in 2001...and they are exactly...almost word for word...the same now in 2004 for DAL.

Again...time will tell who is right...but I fail to see any major differences between UAL/US Air in 2001 and DAL in 2004.

This is the reality at DAL.

1. DAL pilot wages are at least 50% above the industry average.

2. DAL...even with increased capacity and increasing load factors is still losing a billion a year.

3. DAL can no longer borrow money. They have 18-24 months of cash reserves, then they (we) are done.

4. Competition and lower fares wil continue to put more pressure on DAL as AirTran and Jet Blue begin to acquire hundreds more aircraft up and down the NE corridor in direct competition with DAL.

5. DAL needs hundreds of aircraft in the 70-100 seat range...at rates competitive with Jet Blue/AirTran...to have any hope of battling these airlines. Jet Blues 100 new 100 seaters will be serious competition for DAL in NY, as will the 100 new 737s at AirTran in ATL.

6. The longer DAL waits to bring it's cost down , the more debt it incurs, and the less margin and capital it has to make strategic moves...every day is one closer to the "B" word...in which case management will have ALL the leverage...if you don't beleive me, ask my friends at UAL.

UGGHH!!! It's so frustrating...I'm just trying to help my fellow pilots...and their pride and arrogance is just so thick...

I guess that's what I would expect from mostly former AF guys (I being one of them) "we live in fame, go down in flames."

 

[TonyC]

TonyC...you wanted hard numbers for pilot expenses. Since we've all been estimating, here's what an airline analyst says.


from http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/04/18/biz_delta18.html

UGGHH!!! It's so frustrating...I'm just trying to help my fellow pilots...and their pride and arrogance is just so thick...

I guess that's what I would expect from mostly former AF guys (I being one of them) "we live in fame, go down in flames."

Evan, is that you?

Pride ... arrogance... can YOU read???

T O T A L ... O P E R A T I N G ... C O S T S

Did you find those in the article you linked? NOOO. So you still haven't stumbled upon the answer.

If Delta pilots agree to a 30% cut, the savings in TOTAL OPERATING COSTS will be about 2.25%. If they work for FREE, the savings in TOTAL OPERATING COSTS will be about 6.7%.

Will 2.25% savings or 6.7% savings in TOTAL OPERATING COSTS save Delta? NOOOOO.

Nothing arrogant about that, and nothing involving flames.

If it makes you feel better to think you're a quasi-Delta pilot, fine. But don't let it go to your head and make you start thinking you can offer to cut Delta pilot wages while Delta management does nothing to improve the situation. Any wage concessions will only be TOKEN in comparison to the REAL costs of the airline.

 

[TonyC]

from http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/04/18/biz_delta18.html


So there you have it...just as in Dec 2001...my conclusions are backed up by every those folks whose job it is to study the industry.

Oh, I almost forgot. I noticed you didn't copy and paste this part:

Dick Tapke, who runs Tapke Asset Management in Crestview Hills, isn't entirely buying Grinstein's appeal.

"I think that the company is putting the worst face on things as it can to wring more out of the pilots," he said. "Still, the company is having trouble, there's no doubt about that."

Tapke's company has $378.5 million in assets under its management, including more than 300,000 shares of Delta stock. He says the stake makes up just 2 percent of any client's portfolio, and he places it there for its potential upside.

So there you have it... my assertion is backed up by the very folks that manage financial assets. 300,000 shares of Delta stock. He's betting they'll make it. So am I.

 

[acarpe3448]

3. ALL RJs (50/70/90...we fly them, we have the infrastructure and the expertise)) get split equally between ASA/Comair. DAL pilots can bid on these aircraft with their date of hire...but they give up their DAL seniority (hey that's only fair...you get on our list with good seniority, but then your loyalty has to be primarily to us).
What amazes me is that just about every suggestion from a Comair or ASA pilot includes:

A: Their pilots taking little or no pay cuts

B: Comair and ASA get all of the DCI flying, all others are gone

C: Comair and ASA get their wish and Delta dumps scope

D: Comair and ASA get all of the RJ flying including 90 and 100 seat aircraft

E: Delta continues to transfer more and more mainline flying to them

F: Delta pilots get massive amounts of downgrades meaning significant further loss of pay beyond paycuts/meaning Delta pilots will earn maybe 50 to 60% less - Cpt to F/O 767 to 717

G: ASA and Comair graciously allows the furloughs to come to work but have no right to recall. 5th year Delta F/O =say $120,000 yr x .70 =$84,000 year plus our pension and other benefits or we can go to Comair at say $60,000 a year and little or no pension plus fewer benefits and no right to ever get recalled to Delta.

IS IT JUST ME OR DOES THIS SOUND INSANE TO YOU!


Does it sound like ASA and Comair are looking out for the benefit of the company or their own benefit!

**CK THAT!!!!! I would rather take my chance in BK!

No offense but your suggestions are transparent, self centered, stupid, and will never have any chance of Delta Pilots agreeing.

 

[jarhead]

Everyone looks out for their own benefit.....even Delta guys. That's reality. This "saving the profession" rhetoric is just that.....rhetoric.

When and if 11 or 7 come down, it will be a judge deciding your pay scale and fate. That's also reality. DAL is in deep do-do as a viable company. All the bravado and chest thumping in the world will not change what is happening, or that the boogie man is not knocking on the door.

 

[acarpe3448]

I am not even thinking about the "save the profession" thing when I say the things the Comair and ASA pilots suggest. What I am saying is that the answer is not **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** all the Delta pilots and their careers to fund the Comair and ASA pilots dreams,

All the RJs they have ever wanted
All the growth they have ever dreamed of
Larger aicraft than they ever thaught would be at DCI
Increased pay checks to go along with those 90 and 100 seat A/C
Increased job security for them

Does not sound like to good of a deal to me. I have already given a 100% pay cut so I have no real problem taking 70% of what I used to make. But to give all of this and get nothing in return, no thanks. From where I am sitting it does not look like I will be back in a Delta Jet for years and years if we agree to these stupid suggestions. But no offense I do respect that every person can and should voice their suggestions and opinions. And as always I have not lost my respect for the Connection pilots they are still very capable and professional pilots.

 

[goldentrout]

acarpe3448

Do you know what UAL did AFTER bankruptcy...they furloughed another 1,000 or so pilots and imposed a contract with below industry standard pay rates, and work rules worse than at most of the major regional carriers.

You guys don't get it...the game has changed...permanently...forever!

Jet Blue and AirTran and Frontier and SWA are gaining more and more maket share everyday...with big, new shiny airplanes, new routes, and happy employees.

Meanwhile, DAL and UAL and AA are losing more and more market share everyday with old, beat up aircraft, parking airplanes, firing employees by the thousands, and demanding huge pay cuts from those still on the pay roll.

Over the next 5 years, Frontier, SWA, AirTran and JetBlue are going to buy close to 300 new aircraft. Meanwhile, NWA/DAL/UAL/AA will be parking hundreds of aircraft, and maybe buying a couple 777s and a few other miscellaneous planes.

Acarpe...do you really have an illusion of going back to "the good ole days?" That job is dead at UAL/US Air/AA...why do you think DAL is immune?

TonyC...yes, I left that out. I guess there is one in a million investment analysts who think DAL will do well...just like that guy who runs the Alabama state employee retirement fund who put 300,000,000 into US Air...

Yes, my critics are right...my suggestions have something in it for the DCI carriers. No, on 40K/yr, I'm not going to take a 30% paycut...that is not a liveable wage. Besides, when my wheels leave the ground...I'm MAKING MONEY FOR THE COMPANY. Comair made DAL/DCI 120,000,000 in 2003...my pay rates are in line with market costs...my part of the company is making millions, but as gesture of good will, I'll ...

1. Take a 5% pay cut

2. Allow DAL pilots...who otherwise won't see a cockpit for probably at least 5 years...if ever...on my pilot list ahead of me.

3. Give them job opportunities that normally I would have

Stupid suggestions?

Stupid is seeing the iceberg in the water but thinking that you're ship is "unsinkable"...and we all know how that one turned out.

My plan is mutually beneficial

1. DAL pilots on furlough get off furlough, get a decent paying job, and get to beam into the middle of a seniority list (excellent job protection)

2. DAL pilots who would most probably be furloughed during a bankruptcy get to keep a decent job (remember, UAL furloughed another close to 1000 pilots AFTER bankruptcy)

3. Comair/ASA get growth

4. Management gets rid of scope...which is literally killing the company's ability to compete with the right size plane on the right size market (please don't say "DAL can buy all the 70-100 seat aircraft they want"...it is obvious that your MEC will not "let" DAL pilots fly those planes at competitive rates...why not? You tell me...I can't understand why they hasn't just told management to go get those planes, negotiate the best deal possible, and GET THEIR GUYS OFF FURLOUGH. WHAT DOES IT HURT THE GUYS AT THE TOP OF THE DAL LIST IF 2000 GUYS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST FLY RJ70/90s and KEEP A JOB?

Delta guys...please explain? This is the MEC you are counting on to save your job...your company...your career?

Talk to your buds at UAL...when all was said and done, the primary thing the UAL MEC wanted from UAL was pension protection for the senior guys about to retire. They hung everyone one else out to dry...those are not my words...those are exact quotes from the 6 UAL pilots in my reserve unit...4 on furlough, and one hanging by the skin of his teeth...after a 30% pay cut, and another 30% paycut from downgrading aircraft.

The UAL MEC sold their pilots out to protect themselves, period. 10 days off...50% deadhead pay, no duty or trip rigs? What the heck kind of contract is that at a major airline? They gave all that away to make sure they get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars of company revenue a year to do nothing for the rest of their lives.

If I lose my 40K job a year at Comair, there is no doubt in my mind I can make that salary somewhere else.

This is about finding a mutually beneficial solution.

Everyone, including management, is going to have some pain if DAL is to be saved.

But just like that analyst said in the article...the longer we wait, the worse the pain will be.

 

[goldentrout]

Acarpe says

"Does not sound like to good of a deal to me. I have already given a 100% pay cut so I have no real problem taking 70% of what I used to make. But to give all of this and get nothing in return, no thanks."

Nothing in return???? You get a job flying shiny new aircarft in the DAL system with hundreds if not 1000 guys below you on the seniority list, and you have the potential to be making six figures once you move into the left seat at about 8-10 years of seniority (maybe sooner with pay future pay raises).

If you sit around and wait for bankruptcy, I guarantee you the pilots will have zero to no leverage, management will demand and get an end to scope, and then they will farm out all that new 70-100 seat flying to Comair/ASA...or even worse Mesa or some other non-DAL/DCI carrier.

Your choices basically come down to this

1. Be proactive and have some say in your destiny while you still have some leverage.

2. Allow the company to go bankrupt and watch your fate be decide for you.

The UAL guys tried option 2...and we all know how that one turned out.

 

[TurboS7]

Pilot's are being very smart, it is called take the money and run. Let mgmt find other areas to cut, for example all the consultant people on the 6th floor.......

 

[acarpe3448]

goldentrout

Once again I want to say I respect what you all are saying, I really do. However, the suggestions that were posted just did not make sense for Delta pilots. Granted they may very well be very beneficial for the company. It is just my opinion that RJs just have not proven they are the answer. If I look at Delta's use of them, every year we get more and more of them, and it just does not show on the bottom line. If in fact ASA and Comair are making a profit, it is having very little effect on the overall results of the company. With the huge growth that ASA and Comair have had over the past three years I would expect them to be contributing more that $100 million in profit. It just makes sense to me that the huge growth at ASA and Comair would need to be multiplied many many times over to be "THE" answer to Delta's problems. I don't know all the financials at the company but it sure seems to be the time to put some growth on mainline. In closing I believe that no one can predict that the aviation industry has changed "forever". It seems to be taking a big turn right now, but I have heard the doom and gloom many times over the cycles of the industry. Once again I do believe in the large pay cuts, I do agree that our senior pilots are going to sell us out, but there will also be a large number of pilots taking early retirement as the huge pay cuts come to reality, and I do believe that we should work together. But history has shown there is small chance of that. We need some major brain storming because management has no business plan in the works. Maybe it's time to pray, that is one thing that I know will never hurt.

 

[jetflyer]

I think Grinstein and his comrades are trying their best to burn through the cash on hand ASAP.

By doing this they can get the bankruptcy they WANT.

Yes I said WANT. It would actually help in the long term for the company.

I believe it would help because:

1) Their current debt could be refinanced at lower rates and better terms, saving millions, since they have 20 BILLION in debt.
2) They could gut the Delta pilot's contract all they wanted.
3) It would give them the excuse to gut the other NON UNION employees contracts, and they'd have a good excuse. They could apologize forever and say that it was the only option. I bet the flight attendants and other employees would be scared enough of losing their jobs all together by the BANKRUPTCY word they'd not be that mad and not run to unionize. Being in a union would have done them no good anyways, right?
4) They'd be able to also take away and gut the ASA and COMAIR employees' pay. This I'm not sure the judge would approve right away because they're profitable. When things become dire enough and Chapter 7 starts being talked about, I bet some of the pay at Comair and ASA would be taken away quickly, to "SAVE THE COMPANY".

These are only 4 reasons I can think of why Grinstein actually wants banruptcy. I bet there are many more reasons. The shareholders aren't going to sue. They would know the management was doing everything to save the company and their shareprices for the FUTURE.

Like ACARPE said we should all pray. The Delta pilot's should pray the most. They should pray their work rules and pay 18 months from now are just slightly better than UAL's.

BANKRUPTCY: I think it's inevitable at this point.

Jet

 

[TonyC]

It would give them the excuse to gut the other NON UNION employees contracts,...

Ahemm.


Non-union contract? Is somebody confused?

 

[jetflyer]

LOL. yea that's pretty funny. My bad. Thanks Tony. How about just Non Union employees' WORK RULES and PAY. Gotta forgive me. It's 1:00 in the morning where I'm at right now....

Jet

 

[dsee8driver]

Problem areas..

As a pilot and a Delta Silver Medallion member I have read this thread with much interest. I for one believe that Delta's problems come from deeper within. Delta has pretty much done away with the personal service some people have come to expect in the name of technology. The attitudes of all the employees is in need of a reality check. Maybe it comes from the "Cream of the crop speech" given when you get hired.(I was told by a friend that if he heard that line one more time in basic indoc he would puke)
In my experience and talking to fellow passengers (ya know the ones that PAY to get from point A to point B) It needs to start from the Checking Clerks to the Flight Attendants. FLL to ATL has got to have the most Senior yet arrogant bunch of FA's I have seen. Passengers ask for pillows and the attitude is amazing, the rolling of the eyes. Do you think we don't see that? Cuts in Medallion benefits and qualifications have made it very hard for most people to qualify. Basically the few perks that were there are gone. Also starting a whole new "DISCOUNT" Airline to compete with the other "low costs" carriers? Where is the low COST? And here we are worried about 6.7 % of operating costs? Basically I think Delta needs to go back to the customer. Customer service is the key to get the passengers back along with reasonable fares and not the gazillion monitors they have siiting around at gates. Getting a "Sir you just need to keep checking the monitors" reply without looking at you is like saying go away I'm too busy to deal with you. Wake up Delta.

 

[bafanguy]

acarpe3448,

How are the senior Delta pilots going to "sell" you out ? You must be a DAL guy, right ?

 

[Grumpy01]

Can anyone point to a link that will give the % of flying done by all the carriers?

ie, Southwest has X % of the total
ASA has X %
Delts has X %

My reasoning is that if the total % of the flying done can be absorbed by another carrier. If [any] carrier were to fold, would the loss be felt in other than that companies personel.

Would joe average paying pax. be left withoout the transport he/she desires?

I have no wish to see any company go under. It is just a question I had.

 

[acarpe3448]

Bafanguy:

Yes I am a Delta pilot, at least I was at one point. How do I think that the senior guys will sell us ut. Some will and some won't. But in the end I think you will see that the pay will be cut significantly, they will agree to raise the cap (fewer pilots needed), and they will vote to throw out the no furlough protection. I believe that in the end they will try to preserve as much pay for themselves for retirement purposes. Also just look at the number of green slips that are being flown today. I will take our MEC's word that some green slip flying is ok, but I do not beleive for a second that by green slipping they are actually helping the company or helping the furloughed pilots get their jobs back. On the other hand, these guys have been around a long time and I want them to have their pension. The union told us at the go that there would be no negotiating for one groups good and another groups harm. Lets hope they honor that.

Where the heck are those Delta RPM numbers?

 

[bafanguy]

acarpe,

Sounds like you're furloughed...sorry to hear that. I'm not a student of the subject, but I was a card-carrying, dues-paying ALPA member for 30+ years and have seen a few bouts of bad stuff happen. Since Delta got membership ratification, it's been one pilot...one vote on the serious issues. ALPA is a democratic outfit. Your vote is just as significant as mine was, with the demographics of the pilot group determining the outcome. The senior pilots CAN'T sell you out; the mechanism just isn't there for it. You may not like the outcome of the vote but the pilot group will have spoken. If you're furloughed, EVERYONE is a senior guy from your vantage point. In this case, when the vote doesn't favor your circumstances I guess the "senior pilots" will have sold you out. Juniority is hell...been there...done that. Someday you'll be a "senior" guy. It's not what you want to hear, but it's just the facts. Good luck. I retired four years early....I've done MY part for the furlough-recall effort.