Delta guys please explain

[TonyC]

from http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/04/18/biz_delta18.html


So there you have it...just as in Dec 2001...my conclusions are backed up by every those folks whose job it is to study the industry.

Oh, I almost forgot. I noticed you didn't copy and paste this part:

Dick Tapke, who runs Tapke Asset Management in Crestview Hills, isn't entirely buying Grinstein's appeal.

"I think that the company is putting the worst face on things as it can to wring more out of the pilots," he said. "Still, the company is having trouble, there's no doubt about that."

Tapke's company has $378.5 million in assets under its management, including more than 300,000 shares of Delta stock. He says the stake makes up just 2 percent of any client's portfolio, and he places it there for its potential upside.

So there you have it... my assertion is backed up by the very folks that manage financial assets. 300,000 shares of Delta stock. He's betting they'll make it. So am I.

 

[acarpe3448]

3. ALL RJs (50/70/90...we fly them, we have the infrastructure and the expertise)) get split equally between ASA/Comair. DAL pilots can bid on these aircraft with their date of hire...but they give up their DAL seniority (hey that's only fair...you get on our list with good seniority, but then your loyalty has to be primarily to us).
What amazes me is that just about every suggestion from a Comair or ASA pilot includes:

A: Their pilots taking little or no pay cuts

B: Comair and ASA get all of the DCI flying, all others are gone

C: Comair and ASA get their wish and Delta dumps scope

D: Comair and ASA get all of the RJ flying including 90 and 100 seat aircraft

E: Delta continues to transfer more and more mainline flying to them

F: Delta pilots get massive amounts of downgrades meaning significant further loss of pay beyond paycuts/meaning Delta pilots will earn maybe 50 to 60% less - Cpt to F/O 767 to 717

G: ASA and Comair graciously allows the furloughs to come to work but have no right to recall. 5th year Delta F/O =say $120,000 yr x .70 =$84,000 year plus our pension and other benefits or we can go to Comair at say $60,000 a year and little or no pension plus fewer benefits and no right to ever get recalled to Delta.

IS IT JUST ME OR DOES THIS SOUND INSANE TO YOU!


Does it sound like ASA and Comair are looking out for the benefit of the company or their own benefit!

**CK THAT!!!!! I would rather take my chance in BK!

No offense but your suggestions are transparent, self centered, stupid, and will never have any chance of Delta Pilots agreeing.

 

[jarhead]

Everyone looks out for their own benefit.....even Delta guys. That's reality. This "saving the profession" rhetoric is just that.....rhetoric.

When and if 11 or 7 come down, it will be a judge deciding your pay scale and fate. That's also reality. DAL is in deep do-do as a viable company. All the bravado and chest thumping in the world will not change what is happening, or that the boogie man is not knocking on the door.

 

[acarpe3448]

I am not even thinking about the "save the profession" thing when I say the things the Comair and ASA pilots suggest. What I am saying is that the answer is not **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** all the Delta pilots and their careers to fund the Comair and ASA pilots dreams,

All the RJs they have ever wanted
All the growth they have ever dreamed of
Larger aicraft than they ever thaught would be at DCI
Increased pay checks to go along with those 90 and 100 seat A/C
Increased job security for them

Does not sound like to good of a deal to me. I have already given a 100% pay cut so I have no real problem taking 70% of what I used to make. But to give all of this and get nothing in return, no thanks. From where I am sitting it does not look like I will be back in a Delta Jet for years and years if we agree to these stupid suggestions. But no offense I do respect that every person can and should voice their suggestions and opinions. And as always I have not lost my respect for the Connection pilots they are still very capable and professional pilots.

 

[goldentrout]

acarpe3448

Do you know what UAL did AFTER bankruptcy...they furloughed another 1,000 or so pilots and imposed a contract with below industry standard pay rates, and work rules worse than at most of the major regional carriers.

You guys don't get it...the game has changed...permanently...forever!

Jet Blue and AirTran and Frontier and SWA are gaining more and more maket share everyday...with big, new shiny airplanes, new routes, and happy employees.

Meanwhile, DAL and UAL and AA are losing more and more market share everyday with old, beat up aircraft, parking airplanes, firing employees by the thousands, and demanding huge pay cuts from those still on the pay roll.

Over the next 5 years, Frontier, SWA, AirTran and JetBlue are going to buy close to 300 new aircraft. Meanwhile, NWA/DAL/UAL/AA will be parking hundreds of aircraft, and maybe buying a couple 777s and a few other miscellaneous planes.

Acarpe...do you really have an illusion of going back to "the good ole days?" That job is dead at UAL/US Air/AA...why do you think DAL is immune?

TonyC...yes, I left that out. I guess there is one in a million investment analysts who think DAL will do well...just like that guy who runs the Alabama state employee retirement fund who put 300,000,000 into US Air...

Yes, my critics are right...my suggestions have something in it for the DCI carriers. No, on 40K/yr, I'm not going to take a 30% paycut...that is not a liveable wage. Besides, when my wheels leave the ground...I'm MAKING MONEY FOR THE COMPANY. Comair made DAL/DCI 120,000,000 in 2003...my pay rates are in line with market costs...my part of the company is making millions, but as gesture of good will, I'll ...

1. Take a 5% pay cut

2. Allow DAL pilots...who otherwise won't see a cockpit for probably at least 5 years...if ever...on my pilot list ahead of me.

3. Give them job opportunities that normally I would have

Stupid suggestions?

Stupid is seeing the iceberg in the water but thinking that you're ship is "unsinkable"...and we all know how that one turned out.

My plan is mutually beneficial

1. DAL pilots on furlough get off furlough, get a decent paying job, and get to beam into the middle of a seniority list (excellent job protection)

2. DAL pilots who would most probably be furloughed during a bankruptcy get to keep a decent job (remember, UAL furloughed another close to 1000 pilots AFTER bankruptcy)

3. Comair/ASA get growth

4. Management gets rid of scope...which is literally killing the company's ability to compete with the right size plane on the right size market (please don't say "DAL can buy all the 70-100 seat aircraft they want"...it is obvious that your MEC will not "let" DAL pilots fly those planes at competitive rates...why not? You tell me...I can't understand why they hasn't just told management to go get those planes, negotiate the best deal possible, and GET THEIR GUYS OFF FURLOUGH. WHAT DOES IT HURT THE GUYS AT THE TOP OF THE DAL LIST IF 2000 GUYS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST FLY RJ70/90s and KEEP A JOB?

Delta guys...please explain? This is the MEC you are counting on to save your job...your company...your career?

Talk to your buds at UAL...when all was said and done, the primary thing the UAL MEC wanted from UAL was pension protection for the senior guys about to retire. They hung everyone one else out to dry...those are not my words...those are exact quotes from the 6 UAL pilots in my reserve unit...4 on furlough, and one hanging by the skin of his teeth...after a 30% pay cut, and another 30% paycut from downgrading aircraft.

The UAL MEC sold their pilots out to protect themselves, period. 10 days off...50% deadhead pay, no duty or trip rigs? What the heck kind of contract is that at a major airline? They gave all that away to make sure they get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars of company revenue a year to do nothing for the rest of their lives.

If I lose my 40K job a year at Comair, there is no doubt in my mind I can make that salary somewhere else.

This is about finding a mutually beneficial solution.

Everyone, including management, is going to have some pain if DAL is to be saved.

But just like that analyst said in the article...the longer we wait, the worse the pain will be.

 

[goldentrout]

Acarpe says

"Does not sound like to good of a deal to me. I have already given a 100% pay cut so I have no real problem taking 70% of what I used to make. But to give all of this and get nothing in return, no thanks."

Nothing in return???? You get a job flying shiny new aircarft in the DAL system with hundreds if not 1000 guys below you on the seniority list, and you have the potential to be making six figures once you move into the left seat at about 8-10 years of seniority (maybe sooner with pay future pay raises).

If you sit around and wait for bankruptcy, I guarantee you the pilots will have zero to no leverage, management will demand and get an end to scope, and then they will farm out all that new 70-100 seat flying to Comair/ASA...or even worse Mesa or some other non-DAL/DCI carrier.

Your choices basically come down to this

1. Be proactive and have some say in your destiny while you still have some leverage.

2. Allow the company to go bankrupt and watch your fate be decide for you.

The UAL guys tried option 2...and we all know how that one turned out.

 

[TurboS7]

Pilot's are being very smart, it is called take the money and run. Let mgmt find other areas to cut, for example all the consultant people on the 6th floor.......

 

[acarpe3448]

goldentrout

Once again I want to say I respect what you all are saying, I really do. However, the suggestions that were posted just did not make sense for Delta pilots. Granted they may very well be very beneficial for the company. It is just my opinion that RJs just have not proven they are the answer. If I look at Delta's use of them, every year we get more and more of them, and it just does not show on the bottom line. If in fact ASA and Comair are making a profit, it is having very little effect on the overall results of the company. With the huge growth that ASA and Comair have had over the past three years I would expect them to be contributing more that $100 million in profit. It just makes sense to me that the huge growth at ASA and Comair would need to be multiplied many many times over to be "THE" answer to Delta's problems. I don't know all the financials at the company but it sure seems to be the time to put some growth on mainline. In closing I believe that no one can predict that the aviation industry has changed "forever". It seems to be taking a big turn right now, but I have heard the doom and gloom many times over the cycles of the industry. Once again I do believe in the large pay cuts, I do agree that our senior pilots are going to sell us out, but there will also be a large number of pilots taking early retirement as the huge pay cuts come to reality, and I do believe that we should work together. But history has shown there is small chance of that. We need some major brain storming because management has no business plan in the works. Maybe it's time to pray, that is one thing that I know will never hurt.

 

[jetflyer]

I think Grinstein and his comrades are trying their best to burn through the cash on hand ASAP.

By doing this they can get the bankruptcy they WANT.

Yes I said WANT. It would actually help in the long term for the company.

I believe it would help because:

1) Their current debt could be refinanced at lower rates and better terms, saving millions, since they have 20 BILLION in debt.
2) They could gut the Delta pilot's contract all they wanted.
3) It would give them the excuse to gut the other NON UNION employees contracts, and they'd have a good excuse. They could apologize forever and say that it was the only option. I bet the flight attendants and other employees would be scared enough of losing their jobs all together by the BANKRUPTCY word they'd not be that mad and not run to unionize. Being in a union would have done them no good anyways, right?
4) They'd be able to also take away and gut the ASA and COMAIR employees' pay. This I'm not sure the judge would approve right away because they're profitable. When things become dire enough and Chapter 7 starts being talked about, I bet some of the pay at Comair and ASA would be taken away quickly, to "SAVE THE COMPANY".

These are only 4 reasons I can think of why Grinstein actually wants banruptcy. I bet there are many more reasons. The shareholders aren't going to sue. They would know the management was doing everything to save the company and their shareprices for the FUTURE.

Like ACARPE said we should all pray. The Delta pilot's should pray the most. They should pray their work rules and pay 18 months from now are just slightly better than UAL's.

BANKRUPTCY: I think it's inevitable at this point.

Jet

 

[TonyC]

It would give them the excuse to gut the other NON UNION employees contracts,...

Ahemm.


Non-union contract? Is somebody confused?

 

[jetflyer]

LOL. yea that's pretty funny. My bad. Thanks Tony. How about just Non Union employees' WORK RULES and PAY. Gotta forgive me. It's 1:00 in the morning where I'm at right now....

Jet

 

[dsee8driver]

Problem areas..

As a pilot and a Delta Silver Medallion member I have read this thread with much interest. I for one believe that Delta's problems come from deeper within. Delta has pretty much done away with the personal service some people have come to expect in the name of technology. The attitudes of all the employees is in need of a reality check. Maybe it comes from the "Cream of the crop speech" given when you get hired.(I was told by a friend that if he heard that line one more time in basic indoc he would puke)
In my experience and talking to fellow passengers (ya know the ones that PAY to get from point A to point B) It needs to start from the Checking Clerks to the Flight Attendants. FLL to ATL has got to have the most Senior yet arrogant bunch of FA's I have seen. Passengers ask for pillows and the attitude is amazing, the rolling of the eyes. Do you think we don't see that? Cuts in Medallion benefits and qualifications have made it very hard for most people to qualify. Basically the few perks that were there are gone. Also starting a whole new "DISCOUNT" Airline to compete with the other "low costs" carriers? Where is the low COST? And here we are worried about 6.7 % of operating costs? Basically I think Delta needs to go back to the customer. Customer service is the key to get the passengers back along with reasonable fares and not the gazillion monitors they have siiting around at gates. Getting a "Sir you just need to keep checking the monitors" reply without looking at you is like saying go away I'm too busy to deal with you. Wake up Delta.

 

[bafanguy]

acarpe3448,

How are the senior Delta pilots going to "sell" you out ? You must be a DAL guy, right ?

 

[Grumpy01]

Can anyone point to a link that will give the % of flying done by all the carriers?

ie, Southwest has X % of the total
ASA has X %
Delts has X %

My reasoning is that if the total % of the flying done can be absorbed by another carrier. If [any] carrier were to fold, would the loss be felt in other than that companies personel.

Would joe average paying pax. be left withoout the transport he/she desires?

I have no wish to see any company go under. It is just a question I had.

 

[acarpe3448]

Bafanguy:

Yes I am a Delta pilot, at least I was at one point. How do I think that the senior guys will sell us ut. Some will and some won't. But in the end I think you will see that the pay will be cut significantly, they will agree to raise the cap (fewer pilots needed), and they will vote to throw out the no furlough protection. I believe that in the end they will try to preserve as much pay for themselves for retirement purposes. Also just look at the number of green slips that are being flown today. I will take our MEC's word that some green slip flying is ok, but I do not beleive for a second that by green slipping they are actually helping the company or helping the furloughed pilots get their jobs back. On the other hand, these guys have been around a long time and I want them to have their pension. The union told us at the go that there would be no negotiating for one groups good and another groups harm. Lets hope they honor that.

Where the heck are those Delta RPM numbers?

 

[bafanguy]

acarpe,

Sounds like you're furloughed...sorry to hear that. I'm not a student of the subject, but I was a card-carrying, dues-paying ALPA member for 30+ years and have seen a few bouts of bad stuff happen. Since Delta got membership ratification, it's been one pilot...one vote on the serious issues. ALPA is a democratic outfit. Your vote is just as significant as mine was, with the demographics of the pilot group determining the outcome. The senior pilots CAN'T sell you out; the mechanism just isn't there for it. You may not like the outcome of the vote but the pilot group will have spoken. If you're furloughed, EVERYONE is a senior guy from your vantage point. In this case, when the vote doesn't favor your circumstances I guess the "senior pilots" will have sold you out. Juniority is hell...been there...done that. Someday you'll be a "senior" guy. It's not what you want to hear, but it's just the facts. Good luck. I retired four years early....I've done MY part for the furlough-recall effort.