Delta guys please explain

[goldentrout]

Delta guys please explain...

Since 9/11, UAL and US Air have declared bankruptcy, and AA has taken a 25% pay cut. The work rules at UAL are now worse than at my company, Comair (less days off, 50% dead head pay, etc.)

Your...and yes our company, as we are all intimately tied up in the same future...is losing anywhere from 250,000,000-400,000,000 dollars a quarter.

Jet Blue and Air Tran are your...and our...major competitors. Jet Blue is about to buy 100 90-100 seat aircraft, and AirTran is going to buy a bunch of 737s.

Air Tran will compete directly with us at ATL. Jet Blue will compete directly with us on the northeast out of JFK and maybe even LGA.

Jet Blue is making tons of money with Airbuses. There is no doubt that they will make even more moeny with full, smaller 90-100 seat aircraft.

AirTran...as they get more and more bigger aircraft, will put them on DAL routes and drive down the price on DAL routes...furthering diminishing the prospects of favorable DAL revenue increases.

To be competitive, DAL clearly needs more 70 seat RJs, as well as the RJ 90 seater and maybe even some type of 100 seat aircraft.

ALPA's stategy of "preserving the profession" (as our friend UAL78 explained to me immediately after 9/11 as "the way to go" for the profession) has clearly been a failure.

So...what the heck are you guys waiting for? Instead of being proactive, the UAL and US Air MECs basically had a solution...and a very unfavorable one at that...imposed on them.

It has become very obvious to me that ALPA...the mainline MECs...are much more concerned with preserving their pensions than ensuring the long term prosperity of their companies and a prosperous future for the profession.

The MECs at UAL and US Air...despite all their propaganda...failed their pilot groups miserably.

Is the DAL MEC doing any better? Someone told me the other day...and as unpopular as I will be for agreeing...told me "DAL is basically liquidating the company and giving it to the pilots."

Please don't give me the "we've earned every penny" line. When your...our...company is on track to lose more than 1,000,000,000 dollars for a third straight year...we're all just lucky we still have a job.

Yes, yes...management has played their part too. But sitting around blaming them is not going to save the company.

It's time we took matters...our futures...into our own hands, as it would appear management really has no plan to save DAL.

It's time we all got on the same page...Comair/ASA/DAL and went to mangagement with a prosposal to begin negotiations.

What's my plan you ask? Glad you asked...

1. Primary goal of negotiations is to ensure the long term health of the all DAL partners...and the employees...not just the senior pilots. (Is there really any other truly right goal? "Preserving the profession"...which in plain english means "protecting senior pilot pensions at the expense of the company and all the other employees" is a morally bankrupt strategy...both in the literal and metatphorical sense).

2. In return DAL/DCI management promise to keep all the flying in house at DAL/ASA/Comair.

3. ALL RJs (50/70/90...we fly them, we have the infrastructure and the expertise)) get split equally between ASA/Comair. DAL pilots can bid on these aircraft with their date of hire...but they give up their DAL seniority (hey that's only fair...you get on our list with good seniority, but then your loyalty has to be primarily to us). DAL gets rid of the gas hog 737-200s and MD-80s, and buys some 717s or something like that. Yes, that would mean "lower paying" jobs than the 737/MD-80...but the reality is that those are the size aircraft the market is currently demanding.

4. Even though ASA/Comair are money makers...as a gesture of good will...we agree to a 5% pay cut. DAL guys agree to a 20% pay cut (sorry guys, but your pay is 50-60% above the current industry standard...I guarantee you no one is getting rich at Comair/ASA...also notice I said nothing about combining the lists or flow throughs...you guys have made it perfectly clear that's not an option...fine...your little brothers and sisters will welcome the "prodigal" sons/daughters on our lists with open arms...as long as your loyalty rests with us.

5. These are starting points...but someone has to have the vision and leadership to begin the process of putting an end to the perpetual antagonism between "us and them."

All flying is done by pilots in the DAL brother/sisterhood...DAL gets some cost reductions...DAL pilots begin to get off furlough...DAL gets some newer/lower operating cost aircraft. Yes, it's painful for managers and employees, but it's a team effort investment for the future.

Almost forgot...employees get a profit share when we start making money again. But in the bad times, we need a cost structure to keep us going during lean times.

Really...it's got to stop...the "us and them" thing...and the solution is going to cost us all something...management included.

If "us and them" spent as much time and energy on fixing the company as we do on battling each other...well maybe we might just begin climbing out of our hole...rather than digging it $300,000,000 deeper every three months.

 

[350DRIVER]

Do not count Delta out just yet, they won't be down for the count. The pilot group will end up taking substantial cuts once the books have been reviewedbut they do not need to loose any more "mainline" flying nor mainline jobs. There is a point where enough is enough and I am pretty sure most there are at this point. Somehow and some way those 1060 on furlough need to be brought back (and considered) before they farm much more flying out to RJ's. I hope the pilot group at Delta stays strong and management keeps the flying in check and the current route structure in place with DAL aircraft and equipment.

Please don't give me the "we've earned every penny" line. When your...our...company is on track to lose more than 1,000,000,000 dollars for a third straight year...we're all just lucky we still have a job.

Most there will agree that they are going to have to take a substantial pay cut but I hope they continue to stay strong and take a very detailed look at the books before they just give in.


3 5 0

 

[skydraulic]

Jet Blue and Air Tran are your...and our...major competitors. Jet Blue is about to buy 100 90-100 seat aircraft, and AirTran is going to buy a bunch of 737s.

Did Southwest belly up?

In return DAL/DCI management promise to keep all the flying in house at DAL/ASA/Comair

Let's see...in the last few years there has been a delta connection carrier go on strike and one that has voted down a union...which one do you think left a sweet taste with DAL management?

But seriously now, you should try posting this on the MAJORS interview board so that the General can submit a 5 page response

 

[jarhead]

Sunday, April 18, 2004
Delta's Hot Seat

New CEO Gerald Grinstein replaced Leo Mullin and faces unfriendly skies as losses mount, stock sags and no end is in sight
By James Pilcher
The Cincinnati Enquirer

Delta Air Lines is in a jam, a fix unprecedented in its 75-year history.
It lost $383 million last quarter - on top of the more than $2 billion in losses over the previous two years. It is wrangling with its pilots over pay cuts that management says would lead the Atlanta-based carrier back to profitability. Salaries for that group, the lone unionized force at Delta, make up its largest labor cost.
But the airline's problems don't stop with the pilots. Its credit is tapped out. Fares continue to be depressed, thanks to increased competition from low-cost carriers and price pressures from Internet shoppers.
To top things off, two of Delta's top corporate officers have jumped ship in the past month.
It's not exactly the kind of setting a new chief executive officer hopes for heading into his first annual shareholders meeting. But that's exactly what faces Gerald Grinstein when he meets with investors for the first time as CEO Friday in Atlanta.
"Delta is in the worst financial plight it's ever been in," said airline equity analyst Sam Buttrick of UBS Equity Research, one of the longest-tenured airline analysts on Wall Street. "The company has never had as much debt and lost as much money with so little remaining access to capital."
Buttrick isn't alone among industry experts and Wall Street investors in wondering about the future of Delta, which has more than 8,000 employees (including workers at Erlanger-based subsidiary Comair) at its Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport hub. Many have started wondering if Delta might be faced with declaring bankruptcy, although most say that could be at least a year or two away.
Delta stock has lost nearly 80 percent of its value since just before Sept. 11. The company is loaded with $20.6 billion in debt, or 104 percent of its capitalized value. (A company is considered highly leveraged when that rate is more than 30 percent.)
As a result, Delta effectively can't borrow any more, so it must start eating into its cash reserves - $2.2 billion as of the end of last quarter - to pay the bills.
Grinstein, who has refused all interviews recently, acknowledged the company's dire situation to analysts last week.
"Continued losses of this magnitude are unsustainable," Grinstein said on a conference call Wednesday.
Dick Tapke, who runs Tapke Asset Management in Crestview Hills, isn't entirely buying Grinstein's appeal.
"I think that the company is putting the worst face on things as it can to wring more out of the pilots," he said. "Still, the company is having trouble, there's no doubt about that."
Tapke's company has $378.5 million in assets under its management, including more than 300,000 shares of Delta stock. He says the stake makes up just 2 percent of any client's portfolio, and he places it there for its potential upside.
"But even though it's a small percentage of what we do, I take more grief over the fact that the stock is in there than any other," he said
Delta, the nation's No. 3 carrier, isn't alone among airlines facing financial problems.
United and US Airways have either undergone or are still in bankruptcy, which helped both cut labor costs. American Airlines came to the brink of a threatened bankruptcy last year before it got pilots to make concessions.
Continued weak demand for airplane seats has forced down the stock prices of low-cost rivals such as Southwest.
Grinstein, 71, took over for the retiring Leo Mullin on Jan. 1. Mullin made a series of job cuts that reduced Delta's work force by 16,000 in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. Yet Delta has lost more than $2 billion over the last two years.
Mullin will complete his departure this week when he turns over his seat as chairman to Delta board member and former General Motors CEO John F. Smith at Thursday's annual meeting.
In addition to Mullin, former president and chief operating officer Fred Reid left last month to help start a new airline.
And on Thursday, Delta's remaining highest-ranked officer under Grinstein departed. Executive vice president and chief operating officer M. Michele Burns said she was resigning to take a similar job at another Atlanta company.
Fuel costs soar
Beyond the aftershocks of Sept. 11, the entire airline industry is now being buffeted by a surge in jet fuel prices (due to an overall increase in oil prices).
A gallon of jet fuel cost nearly $1 a gallon on the spot market Thursday, which is much higher than normal for this time of year. That surge forced Delta to spend $63 million - or 12.3 percent - more on fuel than it did during the same quarter last year.
"The airline industry is not made to be profitable when oil is $35 a barrel," Buttrick said. "It has trouble enough when oil is at $25 a barrel."
Delta is trying to manage the situation by selling its "hedging" contracts, or agreements for buying fuel at a prearranged price, for $83 million. That leaves the airline only the potentially volatile open market for its fuel.
Burns said Wednesday that in a separate interview that the strategy is based on predictions that jet fuel prices will go down gradually over the coming year but acknowledged that the move is a risk.
"But hedging is a calculated risk as well," she said.
Pressing the case
Company officials and analysts see the pilot situation as the biggest problem.
"Pilot reductions alone won't make Delta profitable, but Delta will not become meaningfully profitable without such pilot reductions," Buttrick said.
Grinstein said in Wednesday's conference call that he has met with more than 1,000 pilots in town hall-style meetings to push his case, although he has yet to make his case to pilots here. The union includes nearly 7,400 pilots, including nearly 800 based in Cincinnati. The company is seeking a 30-plus percent pay cut along with productivity increases.
"Our main competitive disadvantage continues to be our pilot costs," said Grinstein, pointing out that the pilots are due to receive a 4.5 percent raise on May 1. "That continues to be the boulder weighing us down."
The pilots' union has countered with a proposal that calls for a 9 percent wage cut in addition to holding back the impending raises; an offer the union says could help Delta restructure its debt.
Union officials have said that they continue to be open for further negotiations. But they characterize the company's offer as being presented as "take it or leave it," which they say is unacceptable.
"In our analysis, the magnitude of the demand is not justified by the data we have been given," said union spokesman Chris Renkel. "We do acknowledge that our plan addresses the debt, which seems to be the $20 billion elephant no one seems to want to talk about."
Still, "we're just a phone call away." Renkel said.
How long this goes on is up to the pilots, Buttrick said, saying the company could be spending $50 million a month more on pilots than its nearest competitors.
"The sooner the pilots accept the marketplace reality, the smaller the concessions will have to be," he said. "The longer the wait, the deeper they have to be.
"That's just math."
Poison pill possible?
All the swirling problems have led many analysts to begin speculating about Delta's potential for entering bankruptcy. With nearly $2.2 billion in ready cash on hand, Buttrick said the company could survive at least the rest of this year and into next year.
Beyond that, he would say only that "Delta will not be OK after two years," a sentiment echoed by many other analysts in several reports issued this week.
Buttrick and others have openly asked about the potential of spinning off regional subsidiaries Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines, which could raise more cash, but Grinstein said the two airlines are "valuable parts of the Delta network."
Grinstein also told analysts he was committed to turning the company around without resorting to bankruptcy.
"I believe we can make Delta a great airline once more, and I believe we can do it without resorting to court-ordered restructuring," he said.
Still, said Buttrick, "it's going to get worse before it gets better."
E-mail [email protected]

 

[dtzl]

goldentrout,

I agree with you that a solution needs to be finalized. It is very frustrating. Let me just add my 2 cents which is actually worth about a cent:

goldentrout wrote:
>>Your...and yes our company, as we are all intimately tied up in the same future...is losing anywhere from 250,000,000-400,000,000 dollars a quarter.>>

This is the hardest part of the equation to comprehend. I am not calling DAL numbers false or made-up, but they are still voluntarily taking on debt in some very odd ways (terminal renovations, new uniforms, etc.) that call some aspects of these numbers in question. This is all way over my head, but we all know that there are a million sides to every issue and you can't believe everything you hear, especially from the side that is trying to convince you that you need to give them money.

>>So...what the heck are you guys waiting for?<<

DAL management and DALPA have been in negotiations for about a year. I think DALPA's strategy of a no "knee jerk reaction" is a good one....well thought out, factual and emotionless is the path anyone should take when in high stakes negotiations. Hell, I do it when I buy a used car.

>>To be competitive, DAL clearly needs more 70 seat RJs, as well as the RJ 90 seater and maybe even some type of 100 seat aircraft.<<

I agree with you on the 100 seater.

>>ALPA's stategy of "preserving the profession" (as our friend UAL78 explained to me immediately after 9/11 as "the way to go" for the profession) has clearly been a failure.<<

Way too early for anyone to come to this conclusion.

>>DAL guys agree to a 20% pay cut <<

DALPA offered up a 13.5% pay cut along with a combination of other compensation related reductions plus increased work rules. DAL CEO has said 30% pay cut plus a myriad of other compensation reductions plus increased work rules is a "take it or leave it option." I commend you for taking the time and thought to come up with a solution instead of just mindlessly complaining, but this is where management/alpa have disagreed and walked away from discussions. Rumor is that they are talking, but in private.

>>Even though ASA/Comair are money makers...<<

Not so fast there buddy. Unless you have first-hand inside knowledge of how all this money changes hands, you cannot make this statement. Rumor is and it is only a rumor coming from a friend of a friend is that........ASA/Comair pay their own salaries and fuel costs, the rest is picked up by you know who.

I like your attitude of coming up with a solution. If we all did this in good faith and I think eventually the powers-at-be will, DAL and its DCI partners will be around for awhile.

Flame away everybody, I am going out to mow the lawn.

 

[tbkane]

Goldentrout:

2. In return DAL/DCI management promise to keep all the flying in house at DAL/ASA/Comair


Good ideas we said that for years at ASA


. ALL RJs (50/70/90...we fly them, we have the infrastructure and the expertise)) get split equally between ASA/Comair. DAL pilots can bid on these aircraft with their date of hire...but they give up their DAL seniority (hey that's only fair...you get on our list with good seniority, but then your loyalty has to be primarily to us). DAL gets rid of the gas hog 737-200s and MD-80s, and buys some 717s or something like that. Yes, that would mean "lower paying" jobs than the 737/MD-80...but the reality is that those are the size aircraft the market is currently demanding.


When donkeys fly out of my butt!!!

We did not go on furlough for coming up on three years and watch Comair and ASA hire record numbers in order to go back to a regional. I left ASA I don't intend to go back and "give up" my DAL number.

DAL can fly as many 70-100 seat aircraft as they want, it will just be with mainline rather than connection. I don't want to see DAL go bankrupt either, but if it means going to ASA or Comair to get a flying job on a mainline sized aircraft, and giving up my number I will take ahhhh..........

BANKRUPTCY

If your aviatar is correct and your ex military you should want all aircraft 70 seats and bigger at mainline, as I know you didn't spend 8 years in the military to work at Comair.

 

[ATL2CDG]

tbkane:

It's that arrogance and stubbornness that's going to put DAL out of business.

There are tens of thousands of jobs at stake. Countless families will be affected.

[sarcasm] I'm glad to see you have your priorities straight. [/sarcasm].

TysV

 

[tbkane]

ok you got me, I guess I should just give up my number and be happy with a job at Comair then. I guess that is what I read.

As said before at great length, usually by the General. We the Delta pilot group are willing to give some money we are just not ready to sell the farm. 20% pay cuts have been offered and turned down by management. If Delta was in that dire of straights they would have jumped at that and then come back for more.

As usual pilots only see one side of the equation and not the full effect. I don't have a crystal ball, but I am not going to give up Delta for Comair and I don't know of any one of the 1,059 others that would either.

 

[TonyC]

Better still, why not park all the jets at Delta Mainline, and have all the pilots line up at the employment offices of COMAIR and ASA offering to fly RJ's for free, so long as they can be stapled to the bottom of the respective seniority lists.

Makes sense to me.




Seriously, folks... if all the Delta pilots decided tomorrow to work for free, the dent in operating costs would be negligible. Delta management doesn't want you to think that, but... guess who they're concerned with.

 

[goldentrout]

Rebuttal

Comair and ASA are both money makers...no doubt about it. At Comair I talked personally to the VP of flight ops, who said Comair made 120,000,000 last year. DCI has basically put us on a fee for departure status, so we can see how we are doing financially.

Also, DOT now reports separate financial data numbers for the major regional carriers, clearly showing us and ASA are money makers.

DAL is not "footing the bill" for us...if anything, we have probably kept you from going bankrupt already by diminishing DAL losses by 20-30 million a quarter.

As for working at ASA/Comair vs DAL...I have 450 guys junior to me at Comair, and EVERY pilot on furlough at DAL is senior to me. Most DAL guys could easily hold good 50 seat Capt lines, even 70 seat lines, with 15 or so days off a month, still keeping your DAL pass privileges, and getting 500-700 guys below you on the pilot list. Also, you'd be making 65,000-75,000 a year on a 50-70 seater...more when 90 seaters were on the property. Our senior Capt (over 10 years) are easily making close to six figures on the 70 seater, and even some rally senior 50 seat Capt are in that range.

The reality is that the DAL MEC will never agree to a pay rate for 70-90 seat aircraft that DAL management can live with, as that would be perceived as a "b scale" that might "lower the salaries" of the other aircraft...thereby not "preserving the profession."

And speaking of that...someone wrote above that the jury is still out on that issue???????

US Air is about to go under. UAL has a contract with less days off and worse work rules concerning deadhead pay, trip rigging, etc., than I have at Comair.

DAL and NWA guys are getting ready to take it in the shorts big time...just as bad if not worse than AA and UAL.

I think that is pretty credible evidence that the "preserve the profession (pensions of the senior guys)" strategy has not had many positive results.

In a perfect world everyone would get what they deserve, and all the senior airline pilots would get paid $100,000 of company money for the rest of their lives, whiel they produce nothing for the company...on top of the multi-million B fund check they get handed when they retire.

Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world, and the reality of the airline market is that airlines cannot sustain themselves by paying employee salaries and multi-million dollar retirements that far exceed available revenue, even if the employees feel they "deserve" more than what the market will allow.

I don't have an MBA, but it doesn't take a genius to understand this basic concept...

"In the business world, a person is worth whatever the market will pay him/her to do his/her job, regardless of whatever he/she believes as regards their own worth."

As a third year RJ50 FO, I make about 40K/yr. Everyday, I flow the same routes at the same speed into the same airports with the same weather as a DAL 737 third year FO, who probaly makes 120K/yr.

I'd like to think I'm worth just as much as him, but thre is now way an airline can make money maying a RJ50 FO 120K/yr.

I am at the top of the RJ50 payscale market. What I am worth is about 40K/yr.

A third year 737/Airbus FO at SWA/Jet Blue/Frontier probably makes 75-80K/year. Those campnies are consistently making money.

The DAL third year 737 FO is making 120k/yr (about 50% more than his counterparts), and his company is losing $1,000,000,000 or more per year.

Not to mention 1000 or so of his fellow pilots are out on the street...and the DAL MEC is too greedy to let DAL get more 70-90 seat, very profitable, aircraft to get his guys off furlough because they have to "preserve the profession."

We can whine all day about management decisions contributing to the huge losses. But even quarterly losses 50% less than $380,000,000/qtr are clearly unsustainable.

To the guy who said the DAL MEC is being "patient" and "unemotional"...your company has about 2.1 billion on hand...is unable to borrow any more. At $300,000,000/qtr, that gives you about another 18 months and then you...we...are done.

Yes, patience can be a virtue. But just like any virtue, it can be taken to an extreme.

DAL pilots...go talk to your buds at UAL/Us Air/AA and see what kind of contract they have after their MECs' "patience" after 9/11.

I don't think you'll like what you see...

 

[goldentrout]

"Better still, why not park all the jets at Delta Mainline, and have all the pilots line up at the employment offices of COMAIR and ASA offering to fly RJ's for free, so long as they can be stapled to the bottom of the respective seniority lists.

Makes sense to me.

Seriously, folks... if all the Delta pilots decided tomorrow to work for free, the dent in operating costs would be negligible. Delta management doesn't want you to think that, but... guess who they're concerned with."


This is just the dumbest response I've heard yet...yet is sounds very familiar...oh yes, that's what the UAL guys were saying in 2001-2002.

As for "neglible"...

If the average pilot at DAL makes 150k/yr and there are 8,000 active pilots, that means the pilot salary payroll is about 1.2 billion/yr.

A 20% pay cut means $240,000,000/yr in savings...about 1/4-1/5th of last years annual loss...that's not neglible.

Additionally, if the pilots gave up 20% and got rid of the dumb scope restrictions that require DAL to fly unprofitable 737s/MD-80s on routes that could make a ton of money with an RJ70/90, DAL would lower their cost by hundreds of millions more a year.

(Jet Blue just has to be licking their lips as they watch DAL try to compete with them in NY with clearly unprofitable aircraft, while Jet Blue brings 100 100 seat aircraft into a market where they are already making tons of money with bigger Airbuses. Same goes for AirTran in ATL too, as they bring their 737s on line to compete with DAL, who has 737s in ATL with operating costs 50% higher than AirTran.)

It's not just about pilot salaries...but that is a big part of the equation.

It's about a comprehensive, big picture plan where all the players take some pain for the long term benefit of the company, the employees...and their families.

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Recent history has clearly proven that "preserving the profession" is a great piece of "propaganda" that has lead to the crippling...if not outright destruction...of the US mainline airline industry.

Anyone who can't see that needs to change their call sign to "ostrich."

 

[satpak77]

uh say again?

Seriously, folks... if all the Delta pilots decided tomorrow to work for free, the dent in operating costs would be negligible.

you are joking right?

 

[sf3boy]

Tony C is just about right. Look at United. Management talked those guys to take nearly a 40 percent cut and look at the good it has done for the bottom line over there.

Anyone know what the profit margin was for United last quarter with those huge pilot concessions? Wait, that's right, they are still losing money and begging the government not to call the loan. If I was at United, I think I would be wishing I wouldn't of voted yes to concessions.

 

[jarhead]

So, you're saying that if you are bleeding to death from slashes to the wrists, it's ok to cut the jugular vein in your neck also; that death won't come any faster? I think the EMT people would have a better chance of saving the patient with only the lesser wound to deal with. But....I'm no doctor.

 

[Vortilon]

You know what Trout,

Negotiations are ongoing and it will all get worked out. Delta is not going Bankrupt anytime soon. Sounds more and more like our CEO wants to restore DAL to its former greatness and actually run an airline...which is refreshing news. I'm sure an agreement that is mutually beneficial to DAL & DAL Pilots will be solidified before too long. While I'm not privy to exactly what goes on behind closed doors, rest assured the DAL pilots are more informed on the status of negotiations and bargaining positions that you are. By the way, you work for a separate airline, subsidiary or not...not DAL, so quit saying "our" airline. It only serves to cloud your vision and make you think certain relationships exists when they really do not.

But thanks for volunteering our paycuts and the relaxing of OUR scope in exchange for shoring up YOUR scope. I do appreciate it. I'm sure your buddies are happy you volunteered a small 5% cut for them too. Sure glad I supported you financially during your strike and supported you morally when your MEC told CMR to pound sand on paycuts in exchange for RJs.

You don't see US trying to negotiate your payrates and workrules. Mind your own business. Then again, maybe you'd fare better if people that actually considered this a career DID negotiate your contract for you. Do you really think your are worth a piddly $40k per year to fly passenger jets? Managers at McDonalds make more than that. How many years to break 6 figures? And you want bigger planes....to do what with? Fly them for free like you are doing now? Howz that retirement over there at Comair? Lets say you stay there the rest of your career and its 30+ years....what are they going to give you for all of your devoted slave labor? Not much of anything. Its truly sad...and you deserve better. The majors HAVE that better life that we all hope for and we're trying dearly to preserve all that we can. Its our only hope for a decent livelihood and whether you believe it or not...its YOUR only hope for one too. If quality of life at the majors goes to $hit, what exactly do you think you'll achieve over the years at Comair?

Hopefully you'll realize the errors of your short-sighted, defeatist type thinking before its too late. Meanwhile, you take care of yourself over at CMR and let us worry about DAL.

 

[enigma]

Let me put on my fake DALPA MEC Chairman hat........

I'll take the immediate 30% cut, but no work rules changes; I would make this temporary, with a one year sunset clause. I would agree to add back 10 of that 30% the following year and then open contract renegotiations the third year. Nothing else. I would not agree to any work rules changes until a legit, even-steven, renegotiation.

That's my deal, because I believe (from outside looking in) that DAL will still struggle even if the pilots work for Spirit wages. (We make about what the top half of Comair makes) The bottom line is obvious to me, revenues are not sufficient to support a "be all things to all people" route structure. At the present, the market doesn't support a worldwide, first class route structure. The LCC's are cherry-picking the high density routes, meaning that the old system that used the connection carriers to feed the high density routes no longer works because the high density route fairs are not capable of supporting the feed.

Until DAL changes its structure, or fairs increase to pre-2001 levels, mainline is doomed. I'd take the 30% cut for a year just to prove to GG that pilots are not his problem.

enigma

 

[jarhead]

Why all these disparaging remarks about mangers at McDonalds?
I know one, and he does very well for his family. Very well! No, he is not an order taker or a cook. He has high school kids and college students to do that, plus a few older retired women who seem to enjoy doing what they do. Managing a fast food franchise is not as flunkie a job as the stereo-type portrays. Also, I know the family that own's the Burger King franchise in the town where I live. That husband and wife team do well also. They put up, and put at risk, $250,000 to Burger King to get the franchise, and they do actively manage it. I'm guessing they pull in around $90,000 a year, by looking at the nice home they just built. They are in their mid 30's, and did not have "daddy's money" to put at risk. It is their own capitol earned and saved, bank loans, and a good business plan that makes them successful.

 

[jetflyer]

I hope there's enough McDonald's manager postions for all of us at Delta/Comair/ASA. We may all need to apply there in the next 2-3 yrs

Jet

 

[jarhead]

No! Don't apply! Buy a franchise and OWN it. That's the little secret of capitolism.

 

[TonyC]

"Better still, why not park all the jets at Delta Mainline, and have all the pilots line up at the employment offices of COMAIR and ASA offering to fly RJ's for free, so long as they can be stapled to the bottom of the respective seniority lists.

Makes sense to me.

Seriously, folks... if all the Delta pilots decided tomorrow to work for free, the dent in operating costs would be negligible. Delta management doesn't want you to think that, but... guess who they're concerned with."


This is just the dumbest response I've heard yet...yet is sounds very familiar...

Ther reason it sounds familiar is because it makes as much sense as your proposal.

As for "neglible"...

If the average pilot at DAL makes 150k/yr and there are 8,000 active pilots, that means the pilot salary payroll is about 1.2 billion/yr.

Now that you made up some numbers, try addressing the statement you're pretending to discuss. What are the annual OPERATING EXPENSES at Delta? I'm sure you'll see the pilot salaries are NOT the majority of those expenses. I'll say it another way if it helps you to understand: If all the Delta pilots started working tomorrow for free, it would NOT fix the problems.