Delta flowback program

[dgarro]

If Delta furloughs pilots is there a flow back program at Comair do they get hired before guys who are in the hiring pool at Comair? I am curious. Please shed some light on this matter . Tanx

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

If Delta furloughs pilots is there a flow back program at Comair do they get hired before guys who are in the hiring pool at Comair? I am curious. Please shed some light on this matter . Tanx

Not you again.

 

[Long Time Gone]

You have nothing to worry about....

Comair has never hired (let alone interviewed, to my knowledge) any furloughed DAL pilot. God forbid if they have a DAL pilot on the property.

They're way too stuck up to do so, so you'll fit in just fine.

LTG

 

[bailout]

At ASA, they came in at @ 2 per class of 20, so Im sure they "pushed" a few guys back.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

They didn't 'push' anyone back. They hired on just like anyone else. They SHOULD be at the head of the line. Hmmm let's see...someone with many thousands of hours, 121 time, EXPERIENCE, hmmm or someone with 500 hrs, 300 pic, 20 actual, little experience....I'll choose 'a' I think. Like they did 10, 15 yrs ago. Very simple, you can't beat EXPERIENCE. When the shiite hits the fan, I would rather have someone who 'might have been there' in the right seat.
JMO.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Exactly what I'm talking about.....

At ASA, they came in at @ 2 per class of 20, so Im sure they "pushed" a few guys back.

Arrogance was present at the academy, and it still is at the airline...

They didn't "push" anyone back at all. They may have retained their employee numbers for HR purposes, but no one retained their seniority number at all. All seniority numbers were based on DOH and age within the same DOH. I have numeorus furloughees under me, and every single one of them used to be a captain here. Now they're all FOs. That's life.

I'm sure all of this info is exactly the opposite of what the CMR MEC is telling their people. Get your sh!t right or shut the h*!! up.

LTG

 

[chperplt]

I'm sure all of this info is exactly the opposite of what the CMR MEC is telling their people. Get your sh!t right or shut the h*!! up.

Dude... An old wise man once said.. "Speak not for what you do not know, as you'll look like an ass!!

Do you have any idea what the CMR MEC is saying regarding preferential hiring?? By your ignorant reply, the answer is not just no.. but hell no.

 

[Jetpig]

At ASA, they came in at @ 2 per class of 20, so Im sure they "pushed" a few guys back.

I not sure, but I think he is responding to the first question on how this would effect the "guys" in the hiring pool. Not the Pilots on the ASA seniority list.

 

[bailout]

Thank you JetPig, thats exactly what I meant, (as that was the question he asked) but as usual the dumba$$es speak before understanding what they hear/read.

 

[JOPILOT]

Attention Atr Driver- Last I Checked Comairs Mins Were A Little Higher Than 500 Tt, 20 Actual. You Might Be Thinking Of Mesa? Nicely Put Statement Though, Arrogance Must Work Well In The Atr? Jp

 

[FL990]

Attention Atr Driver- Last I Checked Comairs Mins Were A Little Higher Than 500 Tt, 20 Actual. You Might Be Thinking Of Mesa? Nicely Put Statement Though, Arrogance Must Work Well In The Atr? Jp

In ATR-DVR's defense...i believe he may have been refering to ASA. Here, they have been hiring furloughed delta pilots along with former ASA interns and "Flight Safety buy a job" guys. The experience range has been anywhere from 6000+ total time to 500 total 30 multi (for guys that were interns or FLT SFTY).

I think that what he was saying is that the more experienced people should get hired first...I would agree with that...but this is not to say that i disagree with them hiring former interns...however i do believe that the "FLT SFTY buy-a-job" guys should be SOL.

As for the original question of flow back, I think that it is time for all Alpa guys to stand together and get this thing branded. I for one am not a big union person at all, but what i am seeing is to companies CHQ, and Skywest who are on no ones side but there own. They aren't Alpa or Delta management. They are in bed with multiple airlines. That would be like an NFL player playing for the Eagles, Cowboys, Redskins, and Giants all in the same week, or day even. As this deal progresses through the years, we (all alpa groups involved) need to work to shift this to brand...since pay won't be a negotiating factor for DALPA, maybe they can use this.

 

[sweptback]

In ATR-DVR's defense...i believe he may have been refering to ASA. Here, they have been hiring furloughed delta pilots along with former ASA interns and "Flight Safety buy a job" guys. The experience range has been anywhere from 6000+ total time to 500 total 30 multi (for guys that were interns or FLT SFTY).

I think that what he was saying is that the more experienced people should get hired first...I would agree with that...but this is not to say that i disagree with them hiring former interns...however i do believe that the "FLT SFTY buy-a-job" guys should be SOL.

As I understand it, JE in hiring has a pretty decent system for hiring people out of the pool. They try to get a good mix in each class of high time, 135, former 121, and low time. As I understand it, they only take about 2 interns and 2 FSI folks for each class (out of 20). Those numbers are about where they should be, IMO.

However, taking only 2 DAL furloughs per class is just wrong, if there are others waiting. I can understand why they would not want to have a class of all, or even half, but more than two per class would be great.

 

[maxcackel]

My class had nine former DL people plus a good mix of others. And all were awsome and glad to be there as opposed to the alternitive.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

ATR Drivr,

Do you honestly believe that the Comair pilot group is made up entirely of 500 hour wonders?

Is that truly the perception out there in the industry? Are we viewed by our peers as a "training camp" for the ultra-low time?

If so, I hope that you and our peers within the industry will give us another look. Competitive hiring requirements at Comair today are well in excess of 3000 hours TT with prior part 121 experience.

While a small percentage of newhires come through the Delta Connection Academy, it appears that most of the newhires at Comair since around 2002 have been very highly experienced furloughees from American, TWA, United, US Airways, Midway, Mesaba, American Eagle, and Colgan. In addition to these pilots -- who, by the way range from 6000-10,000TT -- there are quite a few military pilots here.

I realize this is off-topic and I apologize for the diversion, but the first thing we need to do is break down these stereotypes and false perceptions. A pilot is a pilot is a pilot. It does not matter if his aircraft was manufactured by Boeing, or Douglas, or Canadair or Embraer. We all do the same job. The minute we can start looking at each other as professionals, then we can start moving forward.

Personally, I would welcome the Delta furloughees at Comair. Why? Because Comair welcomed me during MY time of need.

 

[sweptback]

My class had nine former DL people plus a good mix of others. And all were awsome and glad to be there as opposed to the alternitive.

That's awesome. I stand corrected now. Hopefully future classes have a similar ratio.

 

[FL990]

While a small percentage of newhires come through the Delta Connection Academy, it appears that most of the newhires at Comair since around 2002 have been very highly experienced furloughees from American, TWA, United, US Airways, Midway, Mesaba, American Eagle, and Colgan. .

How is that possible since UNTIL only RECENTLY (september 2004) Comair has required the forgoe of seniority for furloughed pilots wishing to come work there. I am not saying that All Comair pilots are 500 hour pilots when they get hired on and I don't think that is what ATR-DVR is saying either. But, it does give the perception that you have lots of them when every airplane magazine on the rack has Comair acadamy adds promising "get your comercial liscence in one week and get a job 2 days later."

But again, you I don't believe that you have been hiring furloughed since '02...or at least not without making them give up there seniority...that is just recent.

 

[michael707767]

A pilot is a pilot is a pilot. It does not matter if his aircraft was manufactured by Boeing, or Douglas, or Canadair or Embraer. We all do the same job.

Really? Ok, then why are you willing to work for less than a 747 captain?

 

[~~~^~~~]

I've flown with a couple of former Delta guys ( who have had several thousand hours more time on my airplane than I do ) they did a great job. They did not have an attitude and neither did I. We had fun.

If given my choice of FO's, I'd gladly pick a former DAL, or part 121 pilots simply because they have the experience to keep me out of trouble in the event that I forget something & I don't have to coach them through operation of the radar and other things that become common sense once you get a couple seasons of weather under your belt.

I would like to see some sort of program that allows Delta pilots to not have to deal with first year bull effluvia and get some sort of quid pro quo that keeps them from using their MEC to kill my career.

Not that I have anything against the poolies. We have quite a few pilots coming through the pipe that are sharp, experienced guys. But, I'm always hopeful that we can end the civil war in our union and amongst our pilots. We have many common interests that are served by working together.

~~~^~~~

 

[Cirrus]

They didn't 'push' anyone back. They hired on just like anyone else. They SHOULD be at the head of the line. Hmmm let's see...someone with many thousands of hours, 121 time, EXPERIENCE, hmmm or someone with 500 hrs, 300 pic, 20 actual, little experience....I'll choose 'a' I think. Like they did 10, 15 yrs ago. Very simple, you can't beat EXPERIENCE. When the shiite hits the fan, I would rather have someone who 'might have been there' in the right seat.
JMO.

You have heard of the term - over hired - haven’t you?



You bet, I would vote for the experience but from a business decision viewpoint I would expect the company to develop talent that will be around more than a few months. Your low time applicant may not be a good choice either.

JMO

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

For JoPilot and FurloughedAgain,
No, I do not think CMR the mins are that low. I am saying that with all of the very experienced pilots out looking for work, furloughed or other, it would make sense to utilize that experience.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Michael707767,

Are you suggesting that your measure of an aviator's experience and/or professionalism is based on the size of his or her paycheck? Really?

Listen. 4 years ago had you told me that I would be furloughed along with the 1149 people junior to me, and would be flying a regional jet, I would've thought you were crazy.

Today I fly a very capable, high-tech, 70 passenger airliner with one of the most professional pilot groups that I have ever had the pleasure of working with. While some of our group are new to the airline industry and just starting out in their careers, many, many, more of us are here because Comair was kind enough to give us a home when the chips were down.

I can assure you that climbing into the right seat of a CRJ has not in any way diminished my experience, my judgement, or my decision-making abilities.

If you folks are looking down upon the CRJ pilots in line in front of you, then its time for a reality check -- these are not the regionals as they existed in 1998. I dont care how many ads you read in "Flying" magazine.

Its time that we grow up as an aviation community and regard one another with respect and courtesy despite the size or manufacturer of their aircraft. Who knows? In another four years you might find YOURSELF dressed in blue suit and red tie vying for a position in one of these aircraft.

When that day comes, I hope you will be able to look yourself in the mirror with the same pride that you do today.

 

[N813CA]

FurloughedAgain vbmenu_register("postmenu_447253", true);

Well said. I can't add anymore. Well said.

 

[Wacopilot]

Bad Info

FL990,

Check your info. The academy is now called the Delta Connection Academy. More folks go to CHQ than CMR. Comair just makes money on them! In my class there were 6 prior 121 folks including myself, 2 F-18 drivers and a retired airforce Col that flew for the president. Our problem is the most vocal pilots at CMR are the lowtime guys. That is where the reputation comes from.
Waco

 

[Slim]

FL990,

You have the correct pieces of information but are not piecing them together properly.

In Sep 04, the CMR MEC passed a resolution encouraging CMR management to give preferential treatment to hiring furloughed Delta pilots while they retained their mainline seniority number. Prior to that time, no such resolution had come from the CMR MEC.

Prior to that time, several pilots from other mainline carriers came to CMR. I have flown with pilots from AA, Eagle, Midway, Mesaba, Colgan and several former military pilots.

At present, I don't know how any DL pilots will be hired at CMR given the following:

1. Where will they go if CMR has no growth aircraft on the way? Portfolio Phred Butrell and CMR president Randy Rademacher have told the employee groups at CMR that we are too expensive and the Chataqua is the current, favored "step-child" due to their lower costs.

2. The DL pilot group has not yet approved the tentative, concessionary agreement. While I think they will, I'll believe it when it happens. That said, the relaxed limits upon 70-seat airframes is not something I want to count upon until I see additional 70-seaters arriving on the property.

So far as welcoming furloughed DL pilots at CMR, some will be returning to their roots. However, DL/CMR/ASA made their positions clear when they started consolidating their stations in several cities following the acquisition of CMR several years ago. In outstations served by all three carriers, the operation was awarded to one of three carriers. They, in turn, required the displaced ground personnel to re-apply for their old jobs at the same time applicants were being solicited off the street. No preference was offered to the displaced employees! This happened in ICT. South Bend was a dual DL/CMR station. Now it's a CMR station and I believe one former DL employee returned to SBN as a CMR employee. I'm not sure if that individual is still there.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see this happening as easily as many would like.

Fly safe!

 

[FL990]

FL990,

You have the correct pieces of information but are not piecing them together properly.

In Sep 04, the CMR MEC passed a resolution encouraging CMR management to give preferential treatment to hiring furloughed Delta pilots while they retained their mainline seniority number. Prior to that time, no such resolution had come from the CMR MEC.

Prior to that time, several pilots from other mainline carriers came to CMR. I have flown with pilots from AA, Eagle, Midway, Mesaba, Colgan and several former military pilots.


Fly safe!

If I was incorrect on my info, i am sorry. I met two delta furloughs who just got hired on with ASA earlier this year an they were the ones that told me that they had talked to the people at comair and were told that they would be required to give up there number at delta.

As for the future growth, I wouldn't feel to gloomy just yet...while I am conceeding that CHQ could see some growth out of this TA, I believe that a majority of it will come to ASA/COMAIR. It is my understanding that the 25% and 50% clauses in the TA are in BLOCK HOURS not number of flights. keep in mind that the average flight for ASA/CMR is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 to 1.75 hours while the average flight at delta is much greater, especially when factoring in international. In short it is my personal BELIEF (NOT FACT) that we as a group do not yet operate more than 25% of the total. Remember, if Delta goes above 50%, ASA/CMR cannot be reduced below 25% (assuming the TA passes) and therefore, CHQ/SKYWEST would have to decrease...and it is still my firm belief that ASA opened the 70 base in SLC with the intention of growth...they new all along more 70's were coming because Skip (ASA president) has been telling us since before september that this is what they were expecting

 

[737 Pylt]

I would like to see some sort of program that allows Delta pilots to not have to deal with first year bull effluvia and get some sort of quid pro quo that keeps them from using their MEC to kill my career.~~~^~~~

While those are nice things you said about my furloughed brothers, you still cry wolf about the DMEC killing your career! Quite contrary my friend! Looks like the latest TA, which if approved, will do just the opposite. I just wish you and your rjdc pals would stop trying to spread your propoganda and lies!
737

 

[RJFlyer]

A pilot is a pilot is a pilot. It does not matter if his aircraft was manufactured by Boeing, or Douglas, or Canadair or Embraer. We all do the same job.

Really? Ok, then why are you willing to work for less than a 747 captain?

michael707767:

What the he!! does that have to do with his point or the discussion?