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Delta Flow-Up

FBN0223

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Anyone have any accurate information on who Delta would place in the next new-hire class if/when that would happen?

Considering:

1) Delta does have pilots on voluntary furlough and I assume they would have the first shot.

2) Compass flow-up: The requirement for Compass pilots is 30 months and they must be Captain. How many per month would flow-up from Compass? What if all Captains at Compass had the 30 months and were eligible? Would they all flow-up as quickly as training permits?

3) Mesaba flow-up?

4) Other DCI carriers? I don't think there are anymore beyond Compass and Mesaba?

5) Pilots hired by DL and NW but classes cancelled?

6) Off the street but very qualified?

I realize the trend is showing no hiring for the near future but what pilot groups will make-up the next 1000 pilots hired at Delta mainline.
 
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ACL65PILOT

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Anyone have any accurate information on who Delta would place in the next new-hire class if/when that would happen?

Considering:

1) Delta does have pilots on voluntary furlough and I assume they would have the first shot.

Yep anyone on furlough bypass has the first shot. With N and S there are a few 100 out there

2) Compass flow-up: The requirement for Compass pilots is 30 months and they must be Captain. How many per month would flow-up from Compass? What if all Captains at Compass had the 30 months and were eligible? Would they all flow-up as quickly as training permits?

3) Mesaba flow-up?
CPA and XJ would occur at the same time

4) Other DCI carriers? I don't think there are anymore beyond Compass and Mesaba?
Pref hiring as described by each DCI contract

5) Pilots hired by DL and NW but classes canceled?
Pref interview. I know DAL offered all of the guys cut in 01 a first option to interview last time around. They will be told to call and set one up, but they will be actively recruiting off the street at the same time

6) Off the street but very qualified?
yep

I realize the trend is showing no hiring for the near future but what pilot groups will make-up the next 1000 pilots hired at Delta mainline.

Depends, it may be sooner or later than anyone thinks. We are in a state of flux, this industry could go either way.
 

andyd

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The economy has recovered, the flu is gone and we'll soon announce plans to hire 438 by the end of the year!
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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The more I think about the idea (of our union proposing) to flow all ALPA DCI carriers, the more I'm against it. You're really not getting the best applicants by just flowing people up. Look at how far down you have to get on that list to find "off the street but very qualified."
 

WMUSIGPI

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Then perhaps you should look at who you are hiring at the regionals. They are flying YOUR passengers with YOUR name on the plane after all... It wouldn't hurt to tighten the standards at regionals. Well other than maybe having to pay a livable wage....
 

NuGuy

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Then perhaps you should look at who you are hiring at the regionals. They are flying YOUR passengers with YOUR name on the plane after all... It wouldn't hurt to tighten the standards at regionals. Well other than maybe having to pay a livable wage....

And here, in one paragraph, is the key to understanding why the commuters are the way they are.

Wages are the way they are because commuter pilots have no barganing power.

They have no barganing power because they have no scope.

They have no scope because there IS NO scope to have at the commuters...they are simply an outsourced entity...a supplier of lift that can be changed easier than the switch from Pepsi to Coke.

Sure, they could get paid more...but why? If you are going to pay real money to a supplier, you might as well do the flying in house.

The mainline pilots could take a stand, but why? The company will just switch to a cheaper provider. Try to block outsourcing, and get sued by the people you are trying to help. Try to lock in who is already doing the flying, and the only people you benefit are the super senior lifers at the scooters while they try to scam and sue their way onto your list, while the junior scooter pilots are pissed that you cut off their upgrade by shutting off the growth.

It's a no win to even get involved. Best to dump the whole thing a la APA.

Nu
 

~~~^~~~

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Nu,

I generally agree with what you wrote and am beginning to accept your conclusion.

I would only point out the regionals recently have achieved some basic scope and if ALPA could build consensus and agree on a common strategy, the profession could be rebuilt under ALPA. In fact, that would be the best way to go forward in an ideal world.

When ALPA took a stand against B Scale, those who advocated B scales created a much worse monster by moving the cheap end of the operation off the property.

The APA's answer is all American Flying will be performed by American's pilots. ALPA's smartest strategists think that is way too expensive to be bargained back. It will be very interesting to see how that plays out.
 

~~~^~~~

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Then perhaps you should look at who you are hiring at the regionals. They are flying YOUR passengers with YOUR name on the plane after all... It wouldn't hurt to tighten the standards at regionals. Well other than maybe having to pay a livable wage....
How do "we" do that?
 

~~~^~~~

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The more I think about the idea (of our union proposing) to flow all ALPA DCI carriers, the more I'm against it.
You are correct. The EVILS of flow throughs:
  • Historically, flow throughs have not worked
  • Mainline pilots who flow down are considered "off the property" in merger transactions. US Air's Mid Atlantic pilots were stapled below the last America West pilots
  • Bilateral flow throughs have been used as a justification to outsource mainline flying - however the mainline jobs are gone forever while the flow through might, or might not, last
  • ALPA runs into representational issues with mainline and "almost mainline" pilots. All ALPA members are the same, but flow throughs set up an institutionalized acceptance of preferred and non preferred members which destroys unity
  • Typically the benefit of a flow through results in lower wages at the non preferred airline(s)
  • The union often has to deal with arguments whether their own members are "qualified." This is a management issue that unions are poorly equipped to deal with
  • A promise today that airline management might not be in a position to keep in the future. It is a tough business. Any future promise, whether it be a pension or a promotion is iffy in this career field
  • The same benefit as a "flow through" can be realized instantly with none of the problems through unity. Forget the flow, give them a number now, OR, stop filling their heads with empty promises and tell them the reality of "apply & get hired" if you want to fly at mainline.
 

Sandhawk

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  • Mainline pilots who flow down are considered "off the property" in merger transactions. US Air's Mid Atlantic pilots were stapled below the last America West pilots


One minute there, Senor.........

The Mid-Atlantic pilots (who were previously mainline before they were furloughed) were considered "Furloughed" - which is what triggered your ability to fly at Mid-Atlantic. The reason they were stapled to the bottom of the arbitrated list was that they did NOT bring an active mainline job to the merger.

{{ running for cover }}

:smash:
 

peter185

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2) Compass flow-up: The requirement for Compass pilots is 30 months and they must be Captain. How many per month would flow-up from Compass? What if all Captains at Compass had the 30 months and were eligible? Would they all flow-up as quickly as training permits?

Along the same line of questioning....Will there be any spots in the first class at Delta for people outside of Compass and Mesaba? i.e. pilots from the military or other airlines.
 

FBN0223

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Along the same line of questioning....Will there be any spots in the first class at Delta for people outside of Compass and Mesaba? i.e. pilots from the military or other airlines.

Good question. ACL?
 

ACL65PILOT

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Depends on the size of the class and the numbers that are hired per month.
 

peter185

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What if Delta hired 50 people the first month and split that into two classes of 25? Would all the pilots be from Compass and Mesaba?
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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CPZ and XJ have a % of slots guarantee, if I remember correctly.... not an amount of slots.


I've been wrong before, and here is another place where I very well could be...but this is what I remember it to be.
 

koepp

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If 50 people were hired in one month the first 20 would be pulled from Compass, nine would come from Mesaba, and then off the street. There is no % per class just per month. Mesaba can flow up 9 per month; Compass can flow 20 per month.

Compass is capped at 25% of the pilot group per rolling 12 months; Mesaba is capped at 10%. When DAL is hiring about 85 per year will come from Compass and about 108 per year from Mesaba. The rest will be off the street.

If DAL hired 7 pilots per month for a whole year (unlikely) all of them would come from Compass.

If DAL hired 240 pilots in one year in classes of 20 per month all of the pilots would come from Compass until 25% of the pilot group flowed up. After that, nine per month would come from Mesaba and the rest off the street.

If DAL announced furloughs tomorrow the Compass pilots could all be completely flushed to the street; Mesaba would only take on the number that have flowed up to NWA (12-13 I think).
 
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PeanuckleCRJ

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See, I knew there were percentages involved. :) Thanks for the info, koepp.
 

peter185

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What was the average class size during the last wave of hiring at Delta?
 

skywiz

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really?

If 50 people were hired in one month the first 20 would be pulled from Compass, nine would come from Mesaba, and then off the street. There is no % per class just per month. Mesaba can flow up 9 per month; Compass can flow 20 per month.

Compass is capped at 25% of the pilot group per rolling 12 months; Mesaba is capped at 10%. When DAL is hiring about 85 per year will come from Compass and about 108 per year from Mesaba. The rest will be off the street.

If DAL hired 7 pilots per month for a whole year (unlikely) all of them would come from Compass.

If DAL hired 240 pilots in one year in classes of 20 per month all of the pilots would come from Compass until 25% of the pilot group flowed up. After that, nine per month would come from Mesaba and the rest off the street.

If DAL announced furloughs tomorrow the Compass pilots could all be completely flushed to the street; Mesaba would only take on the number that have flowed up to NWA (12-13 I think).


How much of a chance do you really think this will be carried out? I find it hard to believe that Delta/NW (now Delta) which have in the past as I remember hired a large percentage of military pilots...

When the next year of hiring occurs, and lets say only 240 are hired in that year, there will be NO military pilots hired? I find it very hard to believe knowing that a substantial part of their pilot group is military...
 
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