Delta eyes Virgin Atlantic swoop

[145drvr]

So if we did I would assume that it is an ownership and not any sort of merger....ie no combining pilot groups? Own 49% of Virgin.
As owners we could take Virgin America routes and shut them down. no merger?

No, Virgin Atlantic and Virgin America are 2 completely separate companies and only share being part of the Virgin brand.

 

[General Lee]

GL....you really are a monkey! Fingers crossed? Really?

More money out the window for something OTHER than Delta Air lines or pilot salaries!!!

Welcome to the virtual airline.......and I am getting sick of it!! Is SWA hiring?

Bill,

You are the monkey. This is a game of global chess. Maybe you are a Corndog at heart, only thinking about the domestic arena? Other airlines out there, like Qatar or Emirates, are out there looking for cheap buys to stregthen their positions at slot controlled airports all around the World. You really need to think Globally. What would happen if Emirates bought 49% of Virgin Atlantic and then decided to use those LHR slots against all US Airlines to the East Coast? Use their big A380s against our 757s and 767s?

Believe it or not, our JV protection actually expanded in this last contract, meaning we will fly more of the expanded pie. The payments for GOL and Aeromexico ensured feed from those countries into ours. You cant always fly to smaller cities in Brazil or Mexico, even though I guess you would want to? Feeding our widebodies out of the capital cities is the name of the game. Intra Country service isnt always allowed, so JVs and codeshares are needed. Come on Bill! I thought you were smarter than this? If not, throw an app into SWA and maybe you will get a SWA interview in a few years.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I would most certainly be concerned, int'l flying could be shifted to Virgin, most certainly their labor costs are lower....

No, not really. Any possible new owners could look at current Virgin routes from LHR and decide to chop them in favor of routing those pax through a new possible hub, like ATL. Then, that valuable slot could possibly be used for a new city pair, like SLC or SEA. Thanks to the new contract scope protections, DL pilots would have to fly an equal amount of the JV pie, and if VA is added to the other half with AF/KL/AZ, then DL would gain extra flying. Its all in the new contract for that TransAtlantic Joint Venture.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I'd be concerned if I was a Delta pilot...(but I'm a glass empty kinda guy)

Again, there are protections. If they want to be included in the Transatlantic Joint Venture, then they will be added to the pie, which favors DL.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Bill,

You are the monkey. This is a game of global chess. Maybe you are a Corndog at heart, only thinking about the domestic arena? Other airlines out there, like Qatar or Emirates, are out there looking for cheap buys to stregthen their positions at slot controlled airports all around the World. You really need to think Globally. What would happen if Emirates bought 49% of Virgin Atlantic and then decided to use those LHR slots against all US Airlines to the East Coast? Use their big A380s against our 757s and 767s?

Believe it or not, our JV protection actually expanded in this last contract, meaning we will fly more of the expanded pie. The payments for GOL and Aeromexico ensured feed from those countries into ours. You cant always fly to smaller cities in Brazil or Mexico, even though I guess you would want to? Feeding our widebodies out of the capital cities is the name of the game. Intra Country service isnt always allowed, so JVs and codeshares are needed. Come on Bill! I thought you were smarter than this? If not, throw an app into SWA and maybe you will get a SWA interview in a few years.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Ok General....tough love time.

You got Stockholm syndrome. You mark this up as if its in the win column. Great for the corporation....horrible for us pilots. You ARE a Pilot right? Then maybe you will understand that decisions made on the "What if Emirates..." or fear of the future leads to TODAY limiting OUR job growth. I love my International flying too, and even that is dissappearing (I know why though....combo of euro economy and our JVs and code shares). If you think for one minute this PROTECTS our flying, you are probably right, But I guarantee it leaves us with MAYBE a status quo or reduced (widebody) flying schedule going forward.

Rather than compete and try to fly our own people, this Corporation is hellbent on signing today's version of a non-merger and limit our growth. We WILL be like the Corndogs you always seem to want to fight with, and then bragging about your Intl trips and jazzing them for Lubbock layovers won't happen anymore, you'll be right there with them on the crew van......Checkmate!!

We will just be domestic feed for the SkyTeam Travel Agency in the future and no amount of spinning or bragging on FI will soften this gut punch. Ask yourself how many widebodies we got coming GL? A 737 is your future....better make friends with Scoreboard and Bubba for pointers.

 

[General Lee]

Ok General....tough love time.

You got Stockholm syndrome. You mark this up as if its in the win column. Great for the corporation....horrible for us pilots. You ARE a Pilot right? Then maybe you will understand that decisions made on the "What if Emirates..." or fear of the future leads to TODAY limiting OUR job growth. I love my International flying too, and even that is dissappearing (I know why though....combo of euro economy and our JVs and code shares). If you think for one minute this PROTECTS our flying, you are probably right, But I guarantee it leaves us with MAYBE a status quo or reduced (widebody) flying schedule going forward.

Rather than compete and try to fly our own people, this Corporation is hellbent on signing today's version of a non-merger and limit our growth. We WILL be like the Corndogs you always seem to want to fight with, and then bragging about your Intl trips and jazzing them for Lubbock layovers won't happen anymore, you'll be right there with them on the crew van......Checkmate!!

We will just be domestic feed for the SkyTeam Travel Agency in the future and no amount of spinning or bragging on FI will soften this gut punch. Ask yourself how many widebodies we got coming GL? A 737 is your future....better make friends with Scoreboard and Bubba for pointers.

Way too dramatic Bill. First off, we are modifying our current widebodies with new lie flat seats plus AVOD for planes that don't have them. Have you been on one of our 767ERs with the new seats plus crew bunks? They are REAL nice. The product is being upgraded, and that is good for you and me. How many other US Majors are getting new widebodies? All I see is CAL (now UAL) getting some 787s they ordered a long time ago, and AA getting a few 777-300s (maybe 2 or 3 total). That's it. Our industry is still trying to recover from the BK days. We need to keep fares and fees high to order those widebodies. You know the drill, get debt below a certain number ($10B), save money on interest, and then order away. The current used planes we are getting are cheap, but new 777-300ERs won't be. Unless you pay cash for them on the spot, you have time to make even more money and then pay it off as they come from the factory.

I am actually glad the airline is taking time during this downturn to do mods on all of our current widebodies, not park them for good, and at the same time retake domestic routes we gave up long ago to DCI. Those 717s will take back current 76 seat flying, and that also is good for you and me. I don't think it is Stockholm Syndrome, I think it is me being glad we have management that will take chances to make OUR airline stronger and think outside the box. (Refinery, 717s, possible VA tie up). All of those things show our guys are creating the plays, not just watching from the sidelines. I still think those 773s will be ordered, but in the meantime they are cleaning up the used ones and creating a better product. There is no doubt that is happening.

So, if you want to jump ship and see LBB with the Corndogs, then do it in a few years. The only reason our current INTL flying is down is because the EU problems, and the widebody mods are happening. No permanent parking of widebodies, and eventual larger growth as planes come back and the economy gets better. Your claims of major outsourcing are a stretch too. Most new AK routes are ones we never did, and AF/KL have had to give us routes (SEA and ORD) to stay in compliance with the JV. Next Summer we add EWR-CDG permanently, and add back a lot of Summer flying (CDG-BOS, PIT, PHL, etc). If you want to keep some of those year round, you have to fill them up. This Winter it's been tough to Europe.

I doubt you and I will ever go to LBB, unless you get hired on the bottom over there. If you do, you can PM me from Midland. I'll be off on a Moon 3 day...and not all 757s are leaving. The ex TWA birds are fairly new, and all 757-300s, plus 757-200s with winglets are staying for a long while. Those new 739s will replace the older FNWA 757s (5500 block) plus older A320s, and some older 767-300 DOM planes. You knew that, right? Btw, I flew the 738 for a short stint before 9-11, and I still have the notes if I go back to it in the left seat this time. No need for the Corndog's help. Thanks anyway.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flyboyike]

Have you been on one of our 767ERs with the new seats plus crew bunks? They are REAL nice.

Still nearly three-decade-old airplanes, General. Have you seen EK's widebody product? Have you seen EK's cabin staff? No US carrier can begin to compete, no way, no how.

 

[johnsonrod]

Potential benefit of the stock purchase: swap out old, fattish, jaded, cat-loving Delta stews for those Virgin Atlantic models/stews. Richard Branson knows how to hire HOT stews....... Delta should try to learn that best practice.

 

[General Lee]

Still nearly three-decade-old airplanes, General. Have you seen EK's widebody product? Have you seen EK's cabin staff? No US carrier can begin to compete, no way, no how.

It's about improving the product. Those 767-300s (not all 30 years old btw) have been improved tremendously. Same with the rest of the widebodies, all getting makeovers for the better. SWA has even older 737-300s and 737-500s, and they will be keeping them for a lot longer to make up for the loss of 88 717s. As far as competing with Emirates and the like, the airports are not big enough or don't have enough open slots for them to purchase. Emirates is not a major threat yet to US carriers unless they have passengers who are connecting to India or Pakistan. US passengers are NOT going to go to Dubai first, and then backtrack to London. Nope. European Airlines do fear them, and that is why many countries are starting to limit Emirates and other Gulf airlines in the amount of slots or flights daily into their countries. Germany allows a certain number of cities, along with France. Canada allows only 3 weekly flights for Emirates (to Toronto), and Qatar will get the same to Montreal. That is the way it goes. National airlines from those countries know the threat, and so do their governments. So, you may be right about the service, but improving a product and not completely competing directly with them on most routes solves that problem.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[say again]

While I rarely complain about the interior of an aircraft, I do see myself complaining of the in-flight hospitality, or lack-there-of (mainly the legacy carriers, but happens on all airlines). This is where the makeover needs to take place.

 

[jonjuan]

Way too dramatic Bill. First off, we are modifying our current widebodies with new lie flat seats plus AVOD for planes that don't have them. Have you been on one of our 767ERs with the new seats plus crew bunks? They are REAL nice. The product is being upgraded, and that is good for you and me. How many other US Majors are getting new widebodies? All I see is CAL (now UAL) getting some 787s they ordered a long time ago, and AA getting a few 777-300s (maybe 2 or 3 total). That's it. Our industry is still trying to recover from the BK days. We need to keep fares and fees high to order those widebodies. You know the drill, get debt below a certain number ($10B), save money on interest, and then order away. The current used planes we are getting are cheap, but new 777-300ERs won't be. Unless you pay cash for them on the spot, you have time to make even more money and then pay it off as they come from the factory.

I am actually glad the airline is taking time during this downturn to do mods on all of our current widebodies, not park them for good, and at the same time retake domestic routes we gave up long ago to DCI. Those 717s will take back current 76 seat flying, and that also is good for you and me. I don't think it is Stockholm Syndrome, I think it is me being glad we have management that will take chances to make OUR airline stronger and think outside the box. (Refinery, 717s, possible VA tie up). All of those things show our guys are creating the plays, not just watching from the sidelines. I still think those 773s will be ordered, but in the meantime they are cleaning up the used ones and creating a better product. There is no doubt that is happening.

So, if you want to jump ship and see LBB with the Corndogs, then do it in a few years. The only reason our current INTL flying is down is because the EU problems, and the widebody mods are happening. No permanent parking of widebodies, and eventual larger growth as planes come back and the economy gets better. Your claims of major outsourcing are a stretch too. Most new AK routes are ones we never did, and AF/KL have had to give us routes (SEA and ORD) to stay in compliance with the JV. Next Summer we add EWR-CDG permanently, and add back a lot of Summer flying (CDG-BOS, PIT, PHL, etc). If you want to keep some of those year round, you have to fill them up. This Winter it's been tough to Europe.

I doubt you and I will ever go to LBB, unless you get hired on the bottom over there. If you do, you can PM me from Midland. I'll be off on a Moon 3 day...and not all 757s are leaving. The ex TWA birds are fairly new, and all 757-300s, plus 757-200s with winglets are staying for a long while. Those new 739s will replace the older FNWA 757s (5500 block) plus older A320s, and some older 767-300 DOM planes. You knew that, right? Btw, I flew the 738 for a short stint before 9-11, and I still have the notes if I go back to it in the left seat this time. No need for the Corndog's help. Thanks anyway.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Jesus H man, with 17,000 posts and missives like this, do you really have any time for your wife and kids? I mean, holy h ell.

 

[jonjuan]

I mean,sh1t, general, you must be on here 22 hours a day. 17,000. Really?

 

[General Lee]

Jesus H man, with 17,000 posts and missives like this, do you really have any time for your wife and kids? I mean, holy h ell.

Here he goes again. Jonny, from his cell, tries to slam me with the number of posts, nothing on the actual content. Why? Because he can't debate facts. If he thinks something is incorrect, he should point it out, so I could easily point out how much of an idiot he is. He can't do it, his cell mate wants to snuggle.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flyboyike]

Emirates is not a major threat yet to US carriers unless they have passengers who are connecting to India or Pakistan.

There was a time when Hyundai wasn't a major threat either. Have you driven a Genesis?

 

[GogglesPisano]

Since, unlike the GOL, Aeromexico and Virgin Australia deals, DL will not be gaining local feed to it's international flights from it's new partner (Virgin Atlantic does not have a domestic feed into LHR,) I fail to see how this can result in an increase in LHR flying for Delta pilots.

More likely we will be feeding Virgin flights. We'll know more when the MEC issues a statement.

 

[tzskipper]

Here you go....

Since, unlike the GOL, Aeromexico and Virgin Australia deals, DL will not be gaining local feed to it's international flights from it's new partner (Virgin Atlantic does not have a domestic feed into LHR,) I fail to see how this can result in an increase in LHR flying for Delta pilots.

More likely we will be feeding Virgin flights. We'll know more when the MEC issues a statement.

http://www.thirtythousand.us/2012/08/21/virgin-atlantic-to-begin-domestic-uk-flights/#.UL9s1hh8amt

 

[GogglesPisano]

http://www.thirtythousand.us/2012/08/21/virgin-atlantic-to-begin-domestic-uk-flights/#.UL9s1hh8amt

Well, then. I sit corrected. This may not be a bad deal afterall. We'll know when the number of ASM's on flights to LHR on Delta metal increases.

 

[General Lee]

Since, unlike the GOL, Aeromexico and Virgin Australia deals, DL will not be gaining local feed to it's international flights from it's new partner (Virgin Atlantic does not have a domestic feed into LHR,) I fail to see how this can result in an increase in LHR flying for Delta pilots.

More likely we will be feeding Virgin flights. We'll know more when the MEC issues a statement.

DL has created a whole new product with lie flat seats primarily for that LHR market, flying mostly 764's with those seats. They aren't going to abandon it and allow VA to do it, they want more slots. The VA routes from LHR are not really connectable either. If that airport demands high premium for seats, why connect people there onward, when DL flies to a lot of the same cities nonstop from JFK or ATL? There may be some weaker VA city pairs from LHR that someone like DL may want to dump in favor of new nonstops to other hubs, like SLC or SEA maybe, that would benefit certain pilot groups like DL pilots. Mainly though, if that 49% share is for sale, you don't want any richer Gulf carriers coming in and trying to use A380s in those valuable slots to our East Coast.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Why would VA give up ANY slots with whoever buys the 49%. Most likely would just lead to more DL codeshare.

 

[General Lee]

Why would VA give up ANY slots with whoever buys the 49%. Most likely would just lead to more DL codeshare.

Because AF/KL wants to buy the other 51%. Maybe Branson wants out of the airline business? You never know, all speculation. They haven't been as profitable, and the EU says only EU businesses can own the majority. Well, AF/KL could do that. If AF/KL did that and DL bought the other 49%, then maybe, just maybe, DL could get a few more slots to fly there.

Also Red, that wouldn't just be a codeshare, probably a Joint Venture, which is different. In the current JV with AF/KL/AZ, DL has to fly a certain percentage, and it did increase in the last contract. That helps DL, because DL would have to fly 50% of all flying I believe, and if you add more on the other half (to AF/KL/AZ), then that would mean more flying for DL. It could be good for DL. Also, Virgin Atlantic is NOT that big of an airline. It has some big metal, but I would guess they have 20 flights a day out of LHR, and maybe 10 out of Gatwick, and a couple more out of Manchester and Glasgow to Orlando. They did just gain some narrowbody slots out of Heathrow to Glasgow, Edinburgh, etc from a court ruling over the British Airways and BMI merger, but nothing significant, maybe an extra 12 slots for A320 service going North to Scottland. I think the slots are the main goal there.


Bye Bye---General Lee