Delta Cuts

[DTW320]

Delta doesn't want arbitration as it will seal the deal, NWA will get creamed in arbitration to the likes of the very list Delta is proposing

Thanks Puff. Couldn't have said it better. There you have it folks....from the lips of a DAL pilot: NWA pilots would be "creamed" by the SLI proposed by DALPA.

And we should have fallen all over ourselves to sign.....riiiiiiightttt...

DTW320
Frozen A plan + 19% Targeted DC

 

[PuffDriver]

Thanks Puff. Couldn't have said it better. There you have it folks....from the lips of a DAL pilot: NWA pilots would be "creamed" by the SLI proposed by DALPA.

And we should have fallen all over ourselves to sign.....riiiiiiightttt...

DTW320
Frozen A plan + 19% Targeted DC

No doubt, you are a junior NWA pilot. Otherwise, you may have actually read what I wrote.

The NWA pilots get the benefits of this merger in the form of retained DB, a greater increase in DC, more wide body flying, greater increases in pay, greater strides in work rules. In exchange, the NWA pilots do not get DOH.

In arbitration, the deal is sealed. Recent arbitration results favor the position of the Delta pilots.

Once agreed in binding arbitration, the companies agree to merge.

If we are left with a USAir type of integration, what is to stop the NWA pilots from pulling a USAPA type play when the arbitration does not go their way, thus tubing the new company before it hardly gets off of the ground.

In short, you would lose in arbitration. The DAL MEC as well as Delta fears that you will pull a USAPA and doom the company after it is already committed to the merger.

You don't get it both ways. You get more pay, more retirement, better work rules, better bases, more wide bodies, and a better financial career under the Delta pilots SLI. You MEC has chosen the unknown. Yet they keep calling "ugly girl" to see if she wants to dance. Maybe even though she is ugly, she is good in bed, which is what it is really all about anyway.

I had the same A plan, which is nothing more than a promise to pay. I chose the known quantity, and got my A plan in my hot little hands.

 

[DTW320]

No doubt, you are a junior NWA pilot. Think Again PuffDaddy!Otherwise, you may have actually read what I wrote. Oh, I certainly did read it. I loved the part where you said NWA pilots would get the Delta SLI in arbitration and that it = getting creamed.

The NWA pilots get the benefits of this merger in the form of retained DB,Doesn't favor us....you got a better deal in the BK claim & $650m note.....according to you anyway. a greater increase in DC,I'm getting 19% now and many others are getting more...do I get to keep that at DAL? more wide body flying,wow...767300ER's that have fewer seats than our 330's and even our 757-300's and pay....You guessed it! 10% more than our 757....just like every other a/c comparison...BFD greater increases in pay, greater strides in work rules. In exchange, the NWA pilots do not get DOH.Never asked for/suggested DOH. You should really try checking some facts first.

In arbitration, the deal is sealed. Recent arbitration results favor the position of the Delta pilots.Then why is Moak so scared of it? Should be a slam dunk for you.

Once agreed in binding arbitration, the companies agree to merge.

If we are left with a USAir type of integration, what is to stop the NWA pilots from pulling a USAPA type play when the arbitration does not go their way, thus tubing the new company before it hardly gets off of the ground. You're really reaching now, but what else can you do?

In short, you would lose in arbitration. The DAL MEC as well as Delta fears that you will pull a USAPA and doom the company after it is already committed to the merger. You should wish that pilots have that kind of control over a Fortune 100 company.

You don't get it both ways.Oooh, sounds familar.. You get more pay, more retirement, better work rules, better bases, more wide bodies, and a better financial career under the Delta pilots SLI. You MEC has chosen the unknown. No, the unknown is how long the $ enhancements would last.Probably as long as the furlough protection agreed to by both sides lasted. The KNOWN is that the lousy seniority # that the DAL SLI yields would be forever. Yet they keep calling "ugly girl" to see if she wants to dance. Maybe even though she is ugly, she is good in bed, which is what it is really all about anyway. OK PuffDaddy, I admit it, you lost me there. Are we talking about your personal life or what?

I had the same A plan, which is nothing more than a promise to pay. I chose the known quantity, and got my A plan in my hot little hands.Precisely!!So please tell me why you Deltoids keep saying that you need/deserve some SLI credit for the fact that we still have our pensions and you don't. Talk about how you can't have it both ways! I've said it before and never got an answer: Which is it? Were you made whole and then some by the claim sale and $650m note or were you screwed and need SLI compensation for it? The deltoids here are saying both things. Seems disingenuous to say the least.

Seeya Puffy

 

[scarlet]

Told you last Saturday the cuts were coming....before released...

BK court coming again, for alot of airlines .. just hold on.....dam* my source is good.....

 

[f9driver]

General, you will still be spouting "International" as you go "glub, glub, glub" down for the third time. Int'l has NOT saved your bacon yet and as a former Pan Amer, I can assure you, it will probably won't.
This is a very tenuous theory you often repeat. Where are the results? Running from domestic routes and SWA is not a viable business plan. Besides, SWA has some problems of their own. ggg.

 

[Tanker Clown]

I thought things worked out well for Pan Am.....

 

[General Lee]

General, you will still be spouting "International" as you go "glub, glub, glub" down for the third time. Int'l has NOT saved your bacon yet and as a former Pan Amer, I can assure you, it will probably won't.
This is a very tenuous theory you often repeat. Where are the results? Running from domestic routes and SWA is not a viable business plan. Besides, SWA has some problems of their own. ggg.

Pan Am had no feed at the end, which really did end their run. You know that. You can't only be an INTL carrier in the US, thanks to better funded INTL airlines that don't depend on the US Dollar. These days, it is better to have a mix of flying, to bring in those INTL currencies that can save your bacon. Most of our passengers on INTL flights are foreigners, capitalizing on the weaker dollar, and they do buy their tickets in foreign currancies that day by day hold their value over the dollar. That can help.

I like how you assert your point: "as a former Pan Amer, I can ASSURE YOU, it will PROBABLY won't." Now, I don't really know what that actually means, but if you are sure of something, you don't add a "probably" to the end of it.

As far as domestic goes, Southwest is lucky that it has it's hedges. If it did not, it would be making more drastic cuts, like other domestic only airlines, like Frontier. Today they completed the sale of 4 Airbus planes to a Russian airline. Domestic only airlines, without huge hedges, really do need a mix of INTL and DOM flying to bring home the bacon. I am not saying we aren't selling our planes (I think it said temporarily parking), but we have the ability to bring in a bit more revenue and move planes to places that can have a chance and bringing in better yeilds. Some airlines, like NWA, do not have the ability to do that thanks to having mostly older DC9s in the domestic fleet. We have a lot of 757s and 767s used in domestic flying that can go eleswhere if needed thanks to the range ability.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tanker Clown]

Pan Am had no feed at the end, which really did end their run. You know that. You can't only be an INTL carrier in the US, thanks to better funded INTL airlines that don't depend on the US Dollar. These days, it is better to have a mix of flying, to bring in those INTL currencies that can save your bacon. Most of our passengers on INTL flights are foreigners, capitalizing on the weaker dollar, and they do buy their tickets in foreign currancies that day by day hold their value over the dollar. That can help.

I like how you assert your point: "as a former Pan Amer, I can ASSURE YOU, it will PROBABLY won't." Now, I don't really know what that actually means, but if you are sure of something, you don't add a "probably" to the end of it.

As far as domestic goes, Southwest is lucky that it has it's hedges. If it did not, it would be making more drastic cuts, like other domestic only airlines, like Frontier. Today they completed the sale of 4 Airbus planes to a Russian airline. Domestic only airlines, without huge hedges, really do need a mix of INTL and DOM flying to bring home the bacon.


Bye Bye--General Lee

That international plan sure didn't help Delta from losing money last quarter. After watching Delta for the last few years though, I kinda think that losing money is their business plan. And, when you can't figure out how to increase revenue, get concessions from the employee groups.

 

[General Lee]

Told you last Saturday the cuts were coming....before released...

BK court coming again, for alot of airlines .. just hold on.....dam* my source is good.....

BK court coming AGAIN? Really? If the ones who went through BK did not clean their cobbwebs correctly, then maybe. Most of the ones who went through BK have an advantage over the ones who did not. One airline in particular MIGHT fall into the category that you are talking about, but your prognostications are basic. Someone will win the Superbowl next year too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tanker Clown]

BK court coming AGAIN? Really? If the ones who went through BK did not clean their cobbwebs correctly, then maybe. Most of the ones who went through BK have an advantage over the ones who did not. One airline in particular MIGHT fall into the category that you are talking about, but your prognostications are basic. Someone will win the Superbowl next year too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Keep posting sh!tty numbers like you did last quarter and you guys will be right back in Ch 11. How many quarters like that can you have before you have to cry "uncle?"

 

[PuffDriver]

The NWA pilots get the benefits of this merger in the form of retained DB,Doesn't favor us....you got a better deal in the BK claim & $650m note.....according to you anyway.


How exciting. First, let's agree that the deal is dead and the point is moot. The incentives are off of the table as far as I've been told. Fact. You have a DB. Fact, we don't. We are not going to be brought up to par with your DB. As a result, we are more senior for our age. The DB is a wash with our retirements.


I'm getting 19% now and many others are getting more...do I get to keep that at DAL?

To target you to 50% FAE? That means that you are getting more while somebody else junior to you is getting less. That B scale mentality has been fought and beaten at DAL. You would have been merging with a group that takes care of the whole list.

Here is a question, do you get to keep all of that in BK?

more wide body flying,wow...767300ER's that have fewer seats than our 330's and even our 757-300's and pay....You guessed it! 10% more than our 757....just like every other a/c comparison

You like to try and minimize this, but there are 28 more international aircraft in our fleet, and our pay and work rules are better. Cloud it how you like in order to attempt to avoid it.

BFD greater increases in pay, greater strides in work rules.


Yeah, BFD. Whatever. It's all about money and quality of life in this biz. Let's just gloss over that 19% raise, and the immeasurable betterment of work rules. BFD. Right

In exchange, the NWA pilots do not get DOH.Never asked for/suggested DOH. You should really try checking some facts first.


Correct. You tried for worse than DOH. I was being nice.

Then why is Moak so scared of it? Should be a slam dunk for you.

Not scared of it. Buying time. Negotiating position of the Delta pilots will only get better as time goes on.


No, the unknown is how long the $ enhancements would last.Probably as long as the furlough protection agreed to by both sides lasted. The KNOWN is that the lousy seniority # that the DAL SLI yields would be forever.

Let me put it to you this way. If the incentives would be removed from the combined carrier, it would have been an environment which will treat you much worse as a stand alone entity. What else is KNOWN is that every NWA pilot would have been better off financially with a Delta implemented seniority list. The numbers don't lie.

This is such a bad deal for you. Why does the NWA MEC chase us so? Can't seem to get a good answer for that one.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is like PID II.....who's got the popcorn.......

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Serious question. I keep hearing how superior your workrules and contract is, could you guys please give some examples/comparisons for us?? I also keep hearing about the 30% pay raises we would have gotton, but maybe my math is wrong. I make 139/hr as a 320 capt. and your 737ng pays 154/hr according to apc. Now that is an 11% raise. Now as far as the raises going forward, those were to be given to all, not just the nw pilots. I have not seen any details of what the combined contract would have looked like. The good things we have are bstg(bid scheduled trip guarantee) basically get paid for the line you bid regardless xcelations, our sick leave cap of 1200 hrs(lots of us have more than that) our call in honest(commuter policy) reserve guarantee of 75 hours. These are just some off the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, lots not to like but I bet the same is true at all airlines(even before our little trip thru ch11) So, if anyone has any comparisons btw our contracts that show how 3rd world our contract is to deltas please tell.

The NWA pilots get the benefits of this merger in the form of retained DB,Doesn't favor us....you got a better deal in the BK claim & $650m note.....according to you anyway.


How exciting. First, let's agree that the deal is dead and the point is moot. The incentives are off of the table as far as I've been told. Fact. You have a DB. Fact, we don't. We are not going to be brought up to par with your DB. As a result, we are more senior for our age. The DB is a wash with our retirements.


I'm getting 19% now and many others are getting more...do I get to keep that at DAL?

To target you to 50% FAE? That means that you are getting more while somebody else junior to you is getting less. That B scale mentality has been fought and beaten at DAL. You would have been merging with a group that takes care of the whole list.

Here is a question, do you get to keep all of that in BK?

more wide body flying,wow...767300ER's that have fewer seats than our 330's and even our 757-300's and pay....You guessed it! 10% more than our 757....just like every other a/c comparison

You like to try and minimize this, but there are 28 more international aircraft in our fleet, and our pay and work rules are better. Cloud it how you like in order to attempt to avoid it.

BFD greater increases in pay, greater strides in work rules.


Yeah, BFD. Whatever. It's all about money and quality of life in this biz. Let's just gloss over that 19% raise, and the immeasurable betterment of work rules. BFD. Right

In exchange, the NWA pilots do not get DOH.Never asked for/suggested DOH. You should really try checking some facts first.


Correct. You tried for worse than DOH. I was being nice.

Then why is Moak so scared of it? Should be a slam dunk for you.

Not scared of it. Buying time. Negotiating position of the Delta pilots will only get better as time goes on.


No, the unknown is how long the $ enhancements would last.Probably as long as the furlough protection agreed to by both sides lasted. The KNOWN is that the lousy seniority # that the DAL SLI yields would be forever.

Let me put it to you this way. If the incentives would be removed from the combined carrier, it would have been an environment which will treat you much worse as a stand alone entity. What else is KNOWN is that every NWA pilot would have been better off financially with a Delta implemented seniority list. The numbers don't lie.

This is such a bad deal for you. Why does the NWA MEC chase us so? Can't seem to get a good answer for that one.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

If you work for Jet Blue, I seriously doubt you heard that at your indoc.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

They told us we would be "hundredaires".

Still waiting on that to work out for me.

 

[DTW320]

The NWA pilots get the benefits of this merger in the form of retained DB,Doesn't favor us....you got a better deal in the BK claim & $650m note.....according to you anyway.


How exciting. First, let's agree that the deal is dead and the point is moot. No, first we would have to agree that you have never explained the blatant duplicity of your position on your DB plan vs your claim sale/$650m note.The incentives are off of the table as far as I've been told. Fact. You have a DB. Fact, we don't. Fact: You and every other deltoid here says your replacement retirement bennies have /will exceed the value of the lost DB, yet you want some kind of credit anyway!We are not going to be brought up to par with your DB.Right...you're going to exceed it if the posts here are to be believed. As a result, we are more senior for our age. The DB is a wash with our retirements.


I'm getting 19% now and many others are getting more...do I get to keep that at DAL?

To target you to 50% FAE? That means that you are getting more while somebody else junior to you is getting less. That B scale mentality has been fought and beaten at DAL. You would have been merging with a group that takes care of the whole list.Wow. Pretty stunning lack of understanding there dude...junior/senior to me does not solely determine if they get more or less% than me. Its a combo of seniority/age and age at DOH. Someone junior to me but the same age actually gets more % than me because he has a smaller A fund. Get it? The folks getting 0% are the really senior folks who's frozen A-plan already exceed 50% FAE.Finally, please explain how everyone being equally brought to 50% FAE represents a Bscale to you?!?!

Here is a question, do you get to keep all of that in BK? The DC Plan? You bet your Ass we do. It's in the 401k. Fully vested in our own accounts from day 1.

more wide body flying,wow...767300ER's that have fewer seats than our 330's and even our 757-300's and pay....You guessed it! 10% more than our 757....just like every other a/c comparison

You like to try and minimize this, but there are 28 more international aircraft in our fleet, and our pay and work rules are better. Cloud it how you like in order to attempt to avoid it.

BFD greater increases in pay, greater strides in work rules.


Yeah, BFD. Whatever. It's all about money and quality of life in this biz. Let's just gloss over that 19% raise, and the immeasurable betterment of work rules. BFD. Right. It's all about money....right up until the announcement of furloughs and opening of contracts. Meanwhile the seniority is forever. Simple concept that you guys can't seem to understand. And, as others have said, please provide the "secret details of these vastly greater work rules. I have a copy of both contracts. Do you?

In exchange, the NWA pilots do not get DOH.Never asked for/suggested DOH. You should really try checking some facts first.


Correct. You tried for worse than DOH. I was being nice. Total BS and if you believe THAT, then it seriously calls into question any credibility you had.

Then why is Moak so scared of it? Should be a slam dunk for you.

Not scared of it. Buying time. Negotiating position of the Delta pilots will only get better as time goes on. Riiiiight....have you seen your financial/debt numbers? How about your cash on hand as a multiple of monthly expenses?


No, the unknown is how long the $ enhancements would last.Probably as long as the furlough protection agreed to by both sides lasted. The KNOWN is that the lousy seniority # that the DAL SLI yields would be forever.

Let me put it to you this way. If the incentives would be removed from the combined carrier, it would have been an environment which will treat you much worse as a stand alone entity. What else is KNOWN is that every NWA pilot would have been better off financially with a Delta implemented seniority list. The numbers don't lie. No, but apparently DALPA does. Why, oh why, do you guys always go back to money and never want to talk about seniority? Hmmmm?

This is such a bad deal for you. Why does the NWA MEC chase us so? Can't seem to get a good answer for that one.Because it hasn't happened. Maybe you should actually read our MEC's take on this. If a deal is inevitable, the 2 sides should keep talking. That's all we have said. Nothing being chased by anyone. Call your Rep and find out.

Take Care Puffy.