Delta Connection Flying - 100 Aircraft Reduction

[ACL65PILOT]

Well then you have my apologies. I see or perceive a vib from ATL Delta pilots that they see a contract pilot as somehow lesser than than themselves. We are all in this together in some form or another. I don't believe there are many who begrudge a move by DALPA to pull some flying back in. Will all of it ever go, doubt it, but some of the options on the table would seem to benefit all of us over this cutting of one another's collective throats.

Additionally, I believe you are misguided on who believe is our voice. Most of us recognize the importance of a brand and its importance to the flying public as they perceive it. From my view point, it looks like a move is afoot to address this and the former issue while giving all of us caught up in the merry-go-round issue of scope a better chance at career regardless of the side of the house you work on. Hopefully for all of our future we can address these issues and move forward with companies that are economically viable and profitable.

We see it the same way.

As for you last:
It I am misguided, then I am glad to hear that. I know who is where in the pecking order. My only question is do they desire to move on? At that level that question needs to be raised by those that vote for their reps. Maybe it does not matter but it did to me.

Once again, not all ATL pilots from DAL are on the same mind. The only difference in you and me is I am here and you are there. I had 10 years there, and enjoyed it. There is a lot that needs fixing, but that is not a pilot issue. That is a corporate issue.

The reasons that I left besides the obvious were simple. I saw the ASA DCI FFD Air Service agreement and knew for a fact that a lot was going to change in the next 10 years. Most of it would not be good. The regional explosion had a good run, but I saw the pendulum swinging the other way.

Good or bad, one thing you guys need to realize is that D-ALPA continually brings in the DCI MEC's to discuss strategy. IMHO, that is one of LM's strongest suits. I may not like the means or some of the ideas, but he understand that to restore the profession it cannot be a mainline exclusive campaign. It take everyone, you, me, them and us.

What I want is a pipe dream, and realize that. I want what you state. A Delta pilot flying every Delta coded flight. I would further like to see all pilots flying Delta passengers brought in to the fold. I know reality would dictate that a pre-nup would have to be agreed to prior to a push for this. I also know that the DCI carriers involved would need to agree on a seniority agreement before it came to mainline to work on the DCI mainline agreement*. I know just how tall of an order that is. (Pref-ALPA carriers only, but that is me)

The only solution is with a unified front, and I know that includes you. It has not worked the other way, has it? Does that clear up my position?


**CRJ567, I get tired saying this stuff to you.

I am also a realist and realize that the reality is that the easiest solution is to keep the cost up at DCI in an effort to starve the motivation for said flying. In that process the flying would return to mainline. As many say over here. We have the rates for the jets.

It has also been rumored that Mesaba's 900 rates will be more than those that are in our Current PWA. What do you think that means?

* It has been argued that the SLI of DCI would have to be All WO carriers or all DCI ALPA carriers for it to gain traction, and that we could not do it one by one.

 

[makersmarc]

Isn't it written in some airline management book somewhere that it is a good thing for pilots from different groups to not get along?

Whatever those geniuses are doing, it's working.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Isn't it written in some airline management book somewhere that it is a good thing for pilots from different groups to not get along?

Whatever those geniuses are doing, it's working.

We, the mostly BA/BS degreed pilots are playing checkers while the MBA's in airline Mgmt. are playing chess.

Why do we think we can compete?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Generally speaking most of the leaders of our association have advanced degrees.

Also, it is not the degree, but the playing field. The score would be different with a few amendments of the RLA and a time limit on NBM mediated talks.

 

[crj567]

Wow, what a classic statement. You are a pulitzer prize winner for sure. The parking of 50 seaters could be seen from a mile away. They are a drain on mainline revenue, and are not efficient with higher gas. All of this along with new FAA guidlines for hiring and rest requirements due this Fall will make a lot of Regional airlines obselete and not able to compete. Hopefully that will inturn force legacies and LCCs to hire, and balance will return to this industry. BTW, you are an idiot, and you better get your degree or you will be stuck at a shrinking SKW forever. Enjoy that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Enjoy the next fart you suck put of the seat cushions-toolbox!

 

[profit]

1 PAID for DC9 = 124 seats and burns 3-4k lbs an hour.

2 CRJ-200's = 100 seats (if no weight restrictions-unlikely) and burns 3-3.5k lbs an hour

The shift will be back to mainline aircraft and like ACL said, less frequency but with the same number of seats.

btw the DC9s that will be around going forward arent 40 years old, they're around 30 and still going strong

The DC9 is reliable, parts are cheap and Delta can do what it wants with the plane without worry of lease payments. It can be flown as much or as little as they see fit.

I love the 9s, but 3-4k/hour? I doubt it. The CR900 burns that.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

All RJ pilots should have their heads smashed in

 

[profit]

All RJ pilots should have their heads smashed in

Let me guess, you voted for Bush.

 

[Tarzan]

All RJ pilots should have their heads smashed in

Says the troll from Colgan.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

It amazes me that the Delta pilots think that if they get rid of the Regional carriers and RJ's that Delta will magically then grow and be wildly profitable! I think exactly the opposite will occur.

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised at all that as Age 65 really kicks in, the mainline carriers cope with the massive attrition by migrating to an all widebody/heavy fleet doing transcontinental and transoceanic work, fed by regional carriers. The mainline guys have lost their pensions, and are working for 50 cents on the dollar. The pilots might consider getting rid of scope along with all the MD80s, 737s, and the like. The mainline guys get a pay raise, the pilot group shrinks through natural attrition, regionals grow and get 100 plus seat "regional jets" flown by guys who work for 60% of what it used to cost to run a MD or 737 on the same route.

I'm not saying it is right, and I am not saying it is smart. I am just suggesting it is possible.

[Sorry for offering up nothing really original. I got to the thread late, and didn't read all the way through before posting.]

 

[General Lee]

Enjoy the next fart you suck put of the seat cushions-toolbox!

This is a classic example of typing while on a Crack high. Pull the pipe out of your mouth (I am sure you hear that all the time) and please try to rewrite that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ohplease!]

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised at all that as Age 65 really kicks in, the mainline carriers cope with the massive attrition by migrating to an all widebody/heavy fleet doing transcontinental and transoceanic work, fed by regional carriers. The mainline guys have lost their pensions, and are working for 50 cents on the dollar. The pilots might consider getting rid of scope along with all the MD80s, 737s, and the like. The mainline guys get a pay raise, the pilot group shrinks through natural attrition, regionals grow and get 100 plus seat "regional jets" flown by guys who work for 60% of what it used to cost to run a MD or 737 on the same route.

I'm not saying it is right, and I am not saying it is smart. I am just suggesting it is possible.

[Sorry for offering up nothing really original. I got to the thread late, and didn't read all the way through before posting.]

I've said the same thing for years now (pretty easy to see the trends for a while now..50 seats, 70 seats, 76 seats, 90seats at some places....). Not saying its right either, just possible/likely.

Like someone else said earlier somewhere else, those guys in management are armed with "MBA's" while we're armed with BA's and BS's (think mentalities, not necessarily degrees...).... its not even a fair fight...not to mention the FACT they THEY are fighting TOGETHER AND we are fighting against each other......duh!

 

[crj567]

This is a classic example of typing while on a Crack high. Pull the pipe out of your mouth (I am sure you hear that all the time) and please try to rewrite that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Crack tastes a lot better than seat cushion farts, Gen!

 

[General Lee]

Crack tastes a lot better than seat cushion farts, Gen!

So, do you lick a lot of crack? Is that how you were hired at ASA? What was his name? And you better watch it, since licking crack can also lead to farts probably. I bet you like that. Say hi to your mother for me.


Bye Bye---General Lee


PS---thanks for falling right into that one CRJ567----it was just too easy since you are so stupid.

 

[ASABound]

now thats funny right there....

 

[Speedtape]

IF General was KING, instead of General: Suppose DALPA recaptured all RJ flying through the General's, I mean King's royal decree! Would costs go down? NO, in the short and the long run, costs would go UP^^^^^^! Any 5th grader knows that!

Under the same scenario, would DALPA's leverage to improve Heavy Jet pay and rates increase with all those RJ and RJ replacement pilots on the list? Does it present a diluted dilema in negotiation efforts and leverage?

Does it work better the way it is today, versus the pipe dream?

From a non-complexed observation and somewhat objective perspective: It is far better for the Mainline Pilots to allow, but control, outsourcing through proper scope relief so their Company can maximize revenue and profits in that arena. This creates better financial opportunities in negotiating higher pay rates and benefits for the Mainline Heavy and Big airplane pilot working agreement. This strategy makes the DALPA pilots more money in the long run. It also makes them defacto business partners with Management. Proper and controlled Scope Relief is the equivalent of selling off small franchise rights or small licensing agreements. It creates far more opportunity to move Mainline large aircraft pay and benefits ^^^^^Up!

Think about it!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The DC-9-3xs I flew usually burned about 3.5 per hour, perside, at FL 350 (with -9 engines).
The DC-9-34F I have been flying lately (-17 engines) burns 4.0 per hour, per side at FL 270/280 (non-RVSM).

 

[asayankee]

Hi!

The DC-9-3xs I flew usually burned about 3.5 per hour, perside, at FL 350 (with -9 engines).
The DC-9-34F I have been flying lately (-17 engines) burns 4.0 per hour, per side at FL 270/280 (non-RVSM).

A CRJ900 burns about 1700-1800 pph per side in the mid/high 30's doing Mach .80

 

[JumpersAway]

We see it the same way.

As for you last:
It I am misguided, then I am glad to hear that. I know who is where in the pecking order. My only question is do they desire to move on? At that level that question needs to be raised by those that vote for their reps. Maybe it does not matter but it did to me.

Once again, not all ATL pilots from DAL are on the same mind. The only difference in you and me is I am here and you are there. I had 10 years there, and enjoyed it. There is a lot that needs fixing, but that is not a pilot issue. That is a corporate issue.

The reasons that I left besides the obvious were simple. I saw the ASA DCI FFD Air Service agreement and knew for a fact that a lot was going to change in the next 10 years. Most of it would not be good. The regional explosion had a good run, but I saw the pendulum swinging the other way.

Good or bad, one thing you guys need to realize is that D-ALPA continually brings in the DCI MEC's to discuss strategy. IMHO, that is one of LM's strongest suits. I may not like the means or some of the ideas, but he understand that to restore the profession it cannot be a mainline exclusive campaign. It take everyone, you, me, them and us.

What I want is a pipe dream, and realize that. I want what you state. A Delta pilot flying every Delta coded flight. I would further like to see all pilots flying Delta passengers brought in to the fold. I know reality would dictate that a pre-nup would have to be agreed to prior to a push for this. I also know that the DCI carriers involved would need to agree on a seniority agreement before it came to mainline to work on the DCI mainline agreement*. I know just how tall of an order that is. (Pref-ALPA carriers only, but that is me)

The only solution is with a unified front, and I know that includes you. It has not worked the other way, has it? Does that clear up my position?


**CRJ567, I get tired saying this stuff to you.

I am also a realist and realize that the reality is that the easiest solution is to keep the cost up at DCI in an effort to starve the motivation for said flying. In that process the flying would return to mainline. As many say over here. We have the rates for the jets.

It has also been rumored that Mesaba's 900 rates will be more than those that are in our Current PWA. What do you think that means?

* It has been argued that the SLI of DCI would have to be All WO carriers or all DCI ALPA carriers for it to gain traction, and that we could not do it one by one.

ACL- wisely said. I agree with you that for our best strategy to work, the mainline pilots and DCI pilots would need to work together in towards an unprecedented measure. However, I'm afraid that our own self established social classes prohibit this- i.e. one unified brand of flying. Simple truth is that anything less than a staple or merge is a complete waste of time, effort, resources, and most of all, money. Unfortunately, all I can do is stand here and shake my head at the current state of mainline/regional cooperation towards bettering this career.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Jumpers. I am all for looking at a staple/merge again. I think it will serve us wisely. Convince the correct people to dump the bad blood.

 

[CFIT]

ACL65, while it's all a good idea, it's somewhat unrealistic. The possibility of the legacy Delta ALPA head and the DCI combined ALPA head, and SkyWest Pres coming to an agreement would be very unlikely, management would likely stir pot just enough to have all of us turn against each other.

ALPA doesn't care unless dues income were to drop.

The FFD snenario will just change the rules, management, it seems, is always a step ahead, ALPA is just reactionary. Sad but true.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I bet that SKW would become ALPA real quick if it meant a DAL number. (Heck even a flow through agreement)

 

[i fly boxes]

I bet that SKW would become ALPA real quick if it meant a DAL number. (Heck even a flow through agreement)

ACL - how would you propose a flow through with regionals that fly for more than just Delta?

 

[wms]

Flow through will not happen. There has never been a good one.

 

[OneBadLT123]

I just want to give a shout out to all my Saab friends. As I look at the fleet slowly being axed 15 at a time, I see the seniority list getting shorter and shorter. Lots of good friends flying/flew the Saabs and I wish them all the best.

Good luck guys!

 

[Blade Runner]

Flow through will not happen. There has never been a good one.

The XJ flow through is much better than most.

 

[Superpilot92]

Flow through will not happen. There has never been a good one.

Mesaba started to flow guys up to NWA when we were hiring, then the merger happened. We're about to see the flow start working in the upward movement in the next 6-12 months.

 

[JumpersAway]

Flow through will not happen. There has never been a good one.

Agreed- no flow through intrest here.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I do not like flows. The rest longevity, kind of work on the way up and never work on the way down. AMR is proving that they have issues working on the way up to. They are a poor substitute for unity.

The correct answer is the most difficult to achieve. It would take two or three very lengthy steps to combine all of the groups. That said, all would have to be willing. A prenup of DCI being stapled would have to be agreed to for the mainline to look at it, the DCI's would have to agree on some sort of integration prior to the stapling to the bottom of the list, and the company who controls the list would have to agree to it.
I beleive that it is possible, but not probably for one list.

To more specifically answer your question, airlines that are not ALPA would have to decide to remain independent or join ALPA to be included, and airlines flying for multiple carriers would have a tough go at it. The ugly truth is that the WO probably would be the ones integrated first, followed by the regionals that only few for DAL. In the end it is a pipe dream.

IMHO, the way the trend is going these day is to a smaller DCI footprint and with that more mainline. If that trend continues I doubt that the power people would think the effort was worth the return. Unity is important, but some see pulling the flying up as all the unity that is needed.

Like I said, lots of work would need to happen for this to make it off the ground.