Delta CEO Welcome video

[JustaNumber]

That is reality. Every regional thinks there better than the others and deserve some kind of consideration, but in the end they are all pretty much interchangeable. You have professionals at all levels getting the job done (even at cheaper contractors) so why would mgmt go to the board and say "lets pay more for this contractor than we have to for (integrity?) and ethics sake?"
The public has spoken with their wallets and by and large they do not want service, they would rather fly from A to B for $59.

Okay, replace the word "regional" with "mainline pilot", and see how this reads. Do you think DAL would be showing integrity if they fired all the senior mainline pilots (starting with the most senior/experienced, working backwards) and replaced them with cheaper, less experienced labor? After all, the public has spoken, and some kid just out of flight school is pretty much interchangeable with the old guys, right? The only difference is one you make up in your mind, to protect your own sense of irreplaceability.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Well, I think Richard was only referring to "Delta Air Lines", mainline.

Otherwise, he would of said , Pinnacle, Mesaba, Shuttle America, Republic, Colgan, Sky West, Comair, Atlantic Southeast,.....

The Delta mainline guys with the pension still right? Or the Delta guys without?

Fairly certain Skywest and ASA blow Delta out of the water on every customer service index published, well anyone I've ever seen anyhow. Those numbers are given to us by Delta, afterall. Why wouldn't he talk up the part of the operation with higher customer service after paying the money to get the numbers? Oh crap, is that you all's pension money?

 

[doh]

Yes as a paying customer, that is the state of the US domestic airline system. The ship has sailed with deregulation where costs didn't matter as the CAB just set the fares and everyone operated.
Regionals are LOW COST subcontractors (labor only) and the majors have learned as soon as their labor costs start to approach what mainline crews make (and other personnel) it's time to cut ties and move to a newer cheaper LOW COST labor source. That is reality. Every regional thinks there better than the others and deserve some kind of consideration, but in the end they are all pretty much interchangeable. You have professionals at all levels getting the job done (even at cheaper contractors) so why would mgmt go to the board and say "lets pay more for this contractor than we have to for (integrity?) and ethics sake?"
The public has spoken with their wallets and by and large they do not want service, they would rather fly from A to B for $59.

But that is the problem, the job is not getting done. I see it not getting done every time I fly.

 

[Full of LUV]

The Delta mainline guys with the pension still right? Or the Delta guys without?

Fairly certain Skywest and ASA blow Delta out of the water on every customer service index published, well anyone I've ever seen anyhow. Those numbers are given to us by Delta, afterall. Why wouldn't he talk up the part of the operation with higher customer service after paying the money to get the numbers? Oh crap, is that you all's pension money?

What??? Skywest and ASA customer service? If you get past the cramped plane and actually have a problem with a connection, who does a pax call? Skywest? ASA? no...... Delta, because that is who sells the tickets. That's who collects the money. That's who issues FF miles. That's who sponsors the Credit Card. That's who HIRED the subcontractor to provide the service in the first place! That's who I call, the branded business that I did business with.
Oh, I forgot, how is the pension at ASA and Skywest that your so proud of? Will those companies be around to make good on it when your ready to retire? I think if anything that you should have learned in the past 30 years is that the pension model does not work as people live longer, and spend more. I'd much rather have the cash up front, to invest as I please, and not be beholden to some company that I have no control of for my retirement years. For those with frozen pensions, great best of luck, hope it all works out, but I'm not confident about Social security in 20 years much less a public corporation.

 

[Full of LUV]

Okay, replace the word "regional" with "mainline pilot", and see how this reads. Do you think DAL would be showing integrity if they fired all the senior mainline pilots (starting with the most senior/experienced, working backwards) and replaced them with cheaper, less experienced labor? After all, the public has spoken, and some kid just out of flight school is pretty much interchangeable with the old guys, right? The only difference is one you make up in your mind, to protect your own sense of irreplaceability.

That is current best reason for a union and contract. Otherwise, if I were a manager at an airline and I could hire a newhire at 1/2 the cost to do the EXACT same job, I would. The only thing the senior pilot has as an argument is experience, because by the definition of standardization, all pilots should be doing the same job. Major airline pilot unions have learned over the last two decades that you give up scope at your peril as there are PLENTY of contractors who will replace a mainline operation to mgmts satisfaction.

Better than your argument, without scope, why wouldn't DAL just contract with World airways over time to provide all pax services? They'd save a bundle on labor costs? Scope is the only thing that really saves the whole profession from becoming one giant race to the bottom.

 

[Full of LUV]

But that is the problem, the job is not getting done. I see it not getting done every time I fly.

But wait..... jynxyjericho just argues that ASA and Skywest have the BEST customer service, at least when compared to Delta? So how can that be???? Airline MGMT has learned that you will compromise your brand by going to poorly ran contractors (maybe MESA?) but by and large MGMT is mostly looking at COST when deciding where to subcontract out lift from.

 

[doh]

But wait..... jynxyjericho just argues that ASA and Skywest have the BEST customer service, at least when compared to Delta? So how can that be???? Airline MGMT has learned that you will compromise your brand by going to poorly ran contractors (maybe MESA?) but by and large MGMT is mostly looking at COST when deciding where to subcontract out lift from.

Truedat.

 

[JustaNumber]

That is current best reason for a union and contract. Otherwise, if I were a manager at an airline and I could hire a newhire at 1/2 the cost to do the EXACT same job, I would. The only thing the senior pilot has as an argument is experience, because by the definition of standardization, all pilots should be doing the same job. Major airline pilot unions have learned over the last two decades that you give up scope at your peril as there are PLENTY of contractors who will replace a mainline operation to mgmts satisfaction.

Better than your argument, without scope, why wouldn't DAL just contract with World airways over time to provide all pax services? They'd save a bundle on labor costs? Scope is the only thing that really saves the whole profession from becoming one giant race to the bottom.

I understand your argument completely. You believe that pilots should work hard (using scope or whatever) to protect experience and a lifetime of dedication to making a company successful. You believe it is wrong for management to casually throw that away in exchange for the cheapest bidder. I am a regional pilot and I believe the exact same things.

So why is it okay for you to strenuously defend scope, but in my case I just need to get with the program (because "that's reality"), and it's okay for management to toss me away because "the public has spoken"? One day we'll all realize we're all airline pilots who are being pitted against one another.

 

[jynxyjericho]

What??? Skywest and ASA customer service? If you get past the cramped plane and actually have a problem with a connection, who does a pax call? Skywest? ASA? no...... Delta, because that is who sells the tickets. That's who collects the money. That's who issues FF miles. That's who sponsors the Credit Card. That's who HIRED the subcontractor to provide the service in the first place! That's who I call, the branded business that I did business with.

Wait, so what does this have to do with the customer service numbers? You don't actually pay attention to any of this do you? It's OK to admit it, these numbers are something that are tossed around at this level all the time and it's a way to measure ourselves against each other. 2 years of being a part of this delta system now and I'm still shocked how low their numbers are every time I look at them. Numbers alone, Skywest should be running their own airline, but [insert Indy air joke here].

Oh, I forgot, how is the pension at ASA and Skywest that your so proud of? Will those companies be around to make good on it when your ready to retire?

Oh I don't work for Skywest/ASA/XJET, my worthless regional is farther down to the right. The companies could very easily be around 30 years from now if mainline pilots cave on scope. Right now their pension plan is as good as yours for your reference . Will Delta even be around? Or will they be bought and move forward as "New Company name here"?

But wait..... jynxyjericho just argues that ASA and Skywest have the BEST customer service, at least when compared to Delta? So how can that be???? Airline MGMT has learned that you will compromise your brand by going to poorly ran contractors (maybe MESA?) but by and large MGMT is mostly looking at COST when deciding where to subcontract out lift from.

*yawn* Logically it would stand to reason that on a network as large as Delta it is possible to fly often and never see skywest or ASA or whoever. Even though the metrics that Delta uses to rate their airlines shows Skywest leading, that doesn't mean the product is satisfactory. It's satisfactory for Delta, but not for the customer in all cases.

If you want to vehemently defend Delta, that's fine. As far as the pension being too expensive you may want to look at bus drivers across the country, their pension plans, and rethink.

I want Delta and every mainline company to come restore their pre 9-11 bankruptcy. I have no plans to be at my regional for life (unless you sell out scope THAT fast, and that's tough even for a Delta pilot), I will move on as many others will too. It would be helpful for everyone, all pilots, if mainline spent more time looking at their own problems at their contract (including GIANT issues like scope and pay) rather than kicking the regional pilot around like their dog at home.

Me, my co workers, the people coming behind me, we're all heading to mainline at some point. Maybe not Delta but something. We're all in this together whether you like it or not (obviously you don't), so cheer up and shut up.

 

[Full of LUV]

I understand your argument completely. You believe that pilots should work hard (using scope or whatever) to protect experience and a lifetime of dedication to making a company successful. You believe it is wrong for management to casually throw that away in exchange for the cheapest bidder. I am a regional pilot and I believe the exact same things.

So why is it okay for you to strenuously defend scope, but in my case I just need to get with the program (because "that's reality"), and it's okay for management to toss me away because "the public has spoken"? One day we'll all realize we're all airline pilots who are being pitted against one another.

I feel for ya! I am just calling it as I see it. The whole "regional as a stepping stone" model has been fraudulently sold to the pilots. New pilots are told that is the only way to make it to the golden payout is to endure years of substandard pay and schedules with virtually no job certainty / security. Older major pilots were told the subcontractors will allow for great amounts of growth for all the widebodies the regional jets would allow the company to fill. In reality, it's been a slow moveup process for the regional pilots as the majors have parked major portions of their older narrowbody fleets and replaced them with sanctioned contractors. Hopefully pilots have learned their lesson, although it's a developing story. The new DAL / UAL / and post AA BK contracts will be the best indicator of the profession for the next decade.

 

[Full of LUV]

Wait, so what does this have to do with the customer service numbers? You don't actually pay attention to any of this do you? It's OK to admit it, these numbers are something that are tossed around at this level all the time and it's a way to measure ourselves against each other. 2 years of being a part of this delta system now and I'm still shocked how low their numbers are every time I look at them. Numbers alone, Skywest should be running their own airline, but [insert Indy air joke here].

No I don't look at customer service numbers for regionals, they are meaningless. Subcontractors don't provide customer service, they provide contracted lift to Delta customers. They have operational metrics that may be useful in deciding which contractors performance is standard and substandard(ie tardiness, mishandled bags, reliability, etc), but a customer only knows they bought a ticket through Delta and they expect Delta to ensure their satisfaction.

Also, every regional thinks they can run their own airline, Indy air, Expressjet, RAH/Frontier-yet none have been successful in bridging the gulf from subcontractor to Brand name airline. Skywest is obviously been run by some smart guys, I'm sure if it was as easy to go independent as you think, they'd have done it. There is more to running an airline than just good customer service.

Oh I don't work for Skywest/ASA/XJET, my worthless regional is farther down to the right. The companies could very easily be around 30 years from now if mainline pilots cave on scope. Right now their pension plan is as good as yours for your reference . Will Delta even be around? Or will they be bought and move forward as "New Company name here"?

I don't know who will be around in 30 years, that is why I'm actually more comfortable with a 401K with 15% salary contribution by company for me to own outright despite the demise of any one company. I hope the regional pilots get the same or more, the better pay regionals get, the less pressure there is on mgmt to find a way around mainline scope to get to the contractors.

*yawn* Logically it would stand to reason that on a network as large as Delta it is possible to fly often and never see skywest or ASA or whoever. Even though the metrics that Delta uses to rate their airlines shows Skywest leading, that doesn't mean the product is satisfactory. It's satisfactory for Delta, but not for the customer in all cases.

If you want to vehemently defend Delta, that's fine. As far as the pension being too expensive you may want to look at bus drivers across the country, their pension plans, and rethink.

Bus drivers and all government workers eventually will have the pension reality imposed as the private sector has done now. As workers age and it takes more and more money to set up their pensions, companies have balked. Govt pensions are taking longer because govt doesn't pay as they go, they just promise future tax payers will pick up the unfunded tab. Corporations have taken the pension hits now, public pensions are by no means an absolute going forward. Someday the taxpayers will say, wait none of us have a pension, why does the bus driver make $75K in retirement?

I want Delta and every mainline company to come restore their pre 9-11 bankruptcy. I have no plans to be at my regional for life (unless you sell out scope THAT fast, and that's tough even for a Delta pilot), I will move on as many others will too. It would be helpful for everyone, all pilots, if mainline spent more time looking at their own problems at their contract (including GIANT issues like scope and pay) rather than kicking the regional pilot around like their dog at home.

I want too, and I never kick my dog. Like I said in the other post, I feel for the regional pilot, the whole profession has been stagnant for a decade due to BK's, age 65, and scope erosion. It hasn't been a pick nick for anyone except the guys who turned 59 back in 2007.

Me, my co workers, the people coming behind me, we're all heading to mainline at some point. Maybe not Delta but something. We're all in this together whether you like it or not (obviously you don't), so cheer up and shut up.

Don't know where you got the impression that I don't want regional pilots in major airlines. You've actually read me all wrong, I'm more cheery than a high school cheerleader, and when your my copilot some day, we'll get along just fine as long as you don't tell me to shut up.

All this discussion as I commented that I thought Richard's video was actually much more sincere than Tilton's.
LUV

 

[PCL_128]

Well, there's two kinds of pensions. I agree with you about A-Plan pensions, because that money isn't safe in bankruptcy. But B-Plan pensions, like we used to have at AirTran, are safe in bankruptcy just like 401k plans. The difference is that the employee doesn't have to contribute a dime to get the company contribution. That's far superior to a 401k.

 

[JustaNumber]

The new DAL / UAL / and post AA BK contracts will be the best indicator of the profession for the next decade.

I somewhat agree, but I think the Pinnacle BK situation, believe it or not, will be much more of an indicator of the future of the industry. The mainline contracts are probing the upper limits of what is possible for pilot pay, but the unilaterally imposed lower limits of pay that could be seen at Pinnacle will have more of an impact on where the pilot profession is heading. The big question is, will the industry absorb (and propagate) ever lower wages, or are we near the bottom of what the hiring pool will accept? With today's unemployment levels, unfortunately I think we're headed lower.

 

[HalinTexas]

Ironic that a Delta pilot is complaining about scope. You had your chance in 1996. You were the first.

 

[PCL_128]

I somewhat agree, but I think the Pinnacle BK situation, believe it or not, will be much more of an indicator of the future of the industry. The mainline contracts are probing the upper limits of what is possible for pilot pay, but the unilaterally imposed lower limits of pay that could be seen at Pinnacle will have more of an impact on where the pilot profession is heading. The big question is, will the industry absorb (and propagate) ever lower wages, or are we near the bottom of what the hiring pool will accept? With today's unemployment levels, unfortunately I think we're headed lower.

I doubt it can really go lower now that the new FO minimums will be in place next year. Finding someone with 1,500 hours and an ATP who is willing to work for $15k a year won't be easy.

 

[doh]

PCL, I hope you're right.

 

[Flyer1015]

I doubt it can really go lower now that the new FO minimums will be in place next year. Finding someone with 1,500 hours and an ATP who is willing to work for $15k a year won't be easy.

Exactly, and the regionals will not be able to pay an entry level wage high enough to attract ATP-rated pilots. They will have to get some kind of exemption that allows credit towards the 1500 hours. Lets face it, even the majors start you at first year pay of $28k-$40k, because they can get away with it. I can't see regionals starting their entry level pay at $35k to $40k.

The problem today is since 9/11, the regionals have stagnated and there are a lot more lifers. Add in new contracts from 2004-2011, and you have RJ Captains making well over $100k to $125k, putting them right at mainline pay (some US Air Bus captains make the same as a senior RJ checkairman who flies 90 hrs a month). The cost advantage has disappeared due to the new labor structure, with legacies and majors in post-9/11 recession contracts, and the regionals in a booming contract. With the cost advantage gone, and with oil over 110/barrel, the whole regional model is in serious trouble.

 

[Scoot 11]

I doubt it can really go lower now that the new FO minimums will be in place next year. Finding someone with 1,500 hours and an ATP who is willing to work for $15k a year won't be easy.

Exactly. There goes the government getting involved with something they have ZERO clue about. In about 3 years, this is going to be very interesting to watch.

 

[PCL_128]

Exactly. There goes the government getting involved with something they have ZERO clue about. In about 3 years, this is going to be very interesting to watch.

Actually, this is a perfect example of why the government should get involved. The regionals never would have self-corrected. They would have just kept lowering the minimums over and over again until they bottomed out at 190 hours total time and a fresh Commercial certificate from a part 141 school, just to keep wages at rock bottom. The new regulation forces their hand.

 

[Scoot 11]

Actually, this is a perfect example of why the government should get involved. The regionals never would have self-corrected. They would have just kept lowering the minimums over and over again until they bottomed out at 190 hours total time and a fresh Commercial certificate from a part 141 school, just to keep wages at rock bottom. The new regulation forces their hand.

My apologies. I was confusing apples and oranges here. I was talking with a friend regarding the new FAR/rest rules at the same time I was reading your post. I agree above.