Delta/ASA?

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator and JIGoneOH,

Nice. But, our company wants some major cash right now and probably won't give us the jumpseat for the furloughs for less than 31% of our current salary. Your "resignation" policy easily could have been changed because I was there in the ATL crew lounge when Fred Reid and Fred Butrell, your Boss at DCI, said it would be OK if Comair allowed our pilots to fly at the bottom of your seniority list--as long as your own company management agreed (why they didn't call them, I have no idea). Your twin company, ASA, did it. There was no reason why your pilots could not have forced your MEC to talk to your management and change it. When you ask why we could not allow your guys on our jumpseat during your strike, I asked the same thing during it. I was told that during the strike you lost all of your benefits--including pay. Did the company take your airport badges? Were you allowed on the ramp? Were you allowed to non-rev? Was that our fault too? I bet if we were striking, your company (owned by Delta) wouldn't allow us to jump either. To blame us for something like that is wrong. And, as I always say, we couldn't believe it lasted that long and the end result. I remember back in '96 when one of my Captains allowed an ASA jumpseater in the cockpit, and that was before they had the jumpseat. But, things like that don't count. When someone is on strike, and the gate agent knows who you are, it is harder to do it. The company would not have allowed it for security reasons---because when you were striking, you technically weren't a Comair employee. Allowing our furloughs to go to the bottom of your list would have given them back a current badge and allowed them into our cockpits. And JIGoneOH---all I have to say is ----ASA allows it, and it is your TWIN!!!! You have no excuse. Sorry.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General Lee:

So you ignore the posts that challenge you on the facts? That is not like you.

So explain - why should the Comair pilots demand their MEC provide preferential hiring at their airline and changes in long standing policy when your MEC Chairman refuses to talk about the issues that concern Comair pilots?

You know, the saying about the two way street, give and take, you scratch my back, I scratch yours.

Bill Buergey commanded the Comair MEC to do something and the Comair MEC Chairman responded reasonably with a counter proposal. Why is the Comair Chairman's response, a real request to work together on items of mutual concern, grounds for blackmail?

The Comair pilots had no direct involvement in the conversations between the respective MEC Chairmen and nobody refused to do anything on behalf of the Delta pilots. Just like his previous actions, Bill Buergey walked out, refused to participate, refused to work with others to secure goals that would have helped Delta pilots.

I do not see how that makes the Comair pilots "bad guys" for not insisting that their MEC unilaterally acquiesce to another MEC Chairman's demands without any quid pro quo.

You can not honestly say that you wonder why our MECs do not "work together" when you buy into stuff like this that promotes divisions between the pilots performing Delta flying. I fear where this is going because I tended to believe Buergey was more rational and more of a moderate than your new MEC Chairman - I hope I am wrong.

 

[JI Gone OH]

General Lee:

"our company wants some major cash right now and probably won't give us the jumpseat for the furloughs for less than 31% of our current salary. "

FORCE Them General, FORCE DELTA TO CHANGE THAT POLICY FOR NOTHING IN RETURN, THAT'S WHAT YOU WANTED FROM US (and don't give me that Pseudo Preferential Hiring Crap, you and I both know that meant nothing). Or better yet, since you are so sympathetic, give up 31% as a "kind gesture" and get those furloughs back in the cockpit.

"Fred Reid and Fred Butrell, your Boss at DCI, said it would be OK if Comair allowed our pilots to fly at the bottom of your seniority list--as long as your own company management agreed."

My Company Management didn't agree; that was their decision, and that's that! Done! It wasn't MY decision or MY FELLOW COMAIR PILOTS decision! Quit blaming US for COMAIR MANAGEMENT'S DECISION TO UPHOLD COMAIR'S LONG EXISTING HIRING POLICY. I have been furloughed and on the street, I know what it's like, it is terrible, and I (along with more COMAIR pilot's than you will ever give credit to) wished our company had decided to allow your pilots to fly with us, but they didn't! Did I mention stop blaming the Pilot's? I thought so........

"There was no reason why your pilots could not have forced your MEC to talk to your management and change it."

Ahhhhhh the "F" word again; FORCE! That seems to be your solution for everyone but yourself, Almighty General, FORCE FORCE FORCE! Lots of us would like to FORCE you off the boards sometimes, but we know that is not possible, and therefore we live with it. FYI, many many many of US at COMAIR did express our concerns to our MEC in SUPPORT of hiring Delta furloughs, including MYSELF! But all y'all down there in DELTANATION opted to listen to that Bumbling Idiot Buergey at the helm (the Blind leading the Blind), and chose to ignore the facts of what really took place at those "meetings." Where is he nowadays anyway... Oh yeah, he has been replaced. Hmmmm... so was Lawson really the problem? He still seems to be our MEC Chair. You tell me?

"ASA allows it, and it is your TWIN!!!! You have no excuse. Sorry."

1. ASA allows it, COMAIR Doesn't
2. ASA flies props, COMAIR Doesn't

Fraternal Twins, absolutely, but certainly not Identical. No apology necessary, General, for you are the one that keeps getting your D*CK stepped on. Pardon Me, .............Sir

 

[General Lee]

JIgoneOH,

Man alive, you are a hot tamale! Comair is lucky to have you. So, you and the others want to FORCE me off this board---an opinion and rumor board. The best way to not see me on here is to avoid it yourself. I don't mind your opinion, I actually welcome it. But, I do take offense when you say crap like that. But, what can I do? Nothing.

Some other things your MEC Chair said to our group was that there would be a "CRM" problem with our furloughs going to Comair. Can you explain that one? I can see that maybe it would be hard for you to change your management's mind, and that goes the same for our jumpseat during your strike. Can you tell me right now that if we were striking today, that you guys would let us on your jumpseat? Probably not. You obviously cannot control your company policies either, and you probably wouldn't be allowed. Tell me that you could allow that. You couldn't do it, and neither could we. I am really sick and tired of defending our behavior during your strike. You just said that you wanted our furloughs to go to the bottom of your list---and I will believe you on that one. But, when I say that a lot of us wanted you guys to win your strike, then we are immediately shot down. We were obviously more concerned about our kids private schooling in Switzerland and my wife's porsche getting fixed at the Peachtree City shop.....Come on! That is stupid. But, that is what I am up against on this board sometimes. Then you come on and slam me for things that I actually questioned myself(jumpseat), but was told that it was for security reasons---am I supposed to question that? A security issue usually cannot be changed, but the anger against your "management" for not allowing our furloughed to go to the bottom of your list while ASA allowed it, is a real one. Your MEC Chair's attitude also didn't help (see CRM problem above), and just fueled the anger while our guys needed some help. What "little" help we gave you during your time in need was not reciprocated, at all. How about you guys pitching in a little money to help our furloughs, like we did for you guys? Nope, not gonna happen.

Our MEC Chair--Buergey---did not run again for his position, and actually wanted to fly the last couple years of his career. Can you blame him? Do you like to fly? He probably moved up a lot and I believe he was awarded 777 Capt from the 767 position he had when he served as Chair. Do you like flying to Rome on Tues nights and spending Wed night at the Trevee Fountain eating gelato? I bet he does. Wouldn't you like to do that? I guess not.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

Sorry, I read JI's post first and responded to his accordingly. Now I will try to respond to your post. I really don't know what went on in the MEC meeting. All I know is what I was told. For all I know, the Comair MEC Chair is also saying things that did not occur. I can't really believe that Buergey would "demand" stuff that he did not have. Why would he "demand" that our furloughs get help? That doesn't sound right, does it? Come on. Buergey couldn't demand anything from someone else. I can see Lawson trying to help his people out, and trying to maybe take advantage of a bad situation. He sure as heck didn't just "offer" to help our guys right off the bat. He wanted something in return. In the mean time, DCI got a HUGE percentage increase while we were downsizing. Sure, we had some overcapacity problems at the time and that probably was a smart thing to do, but DCI grew a lot more that was previously allowed by our contract, signed by LEO. You got to expand, and we got to shrink.
It looks like the winner was DCI. Now things are slowly returning, and we hope to get back to normal eventually. Had Buergey given up the scope 1 year ago, all of our planes in the desert would have stayed there forever. So, as I see it, you got to increase your flying as a result of our misfortune, and it still stays the same with respect to percentages. I say you guys won and a lot of people got free upgrades in the process. That is good for you, but some of you still want to expand at our expense, and we will still have 1060 pilots out as of Dec 1st. I want to see all of us expand eventually. I want you to get back into the left seat of your 70 seater, and I want our other furloughs to return. That is what I want.

Bye Bye--General Lee


PS---If you think I still haven't answered your questions, please re-ask them and I will try again. Also, our new MEC chair was our lead negotiator for our C2K contract. He negotiated our scope clause. I can see why you might think the way you do.

 

[Klamath]

Forgive me, I'm just clueless and curious.

I'm sure it is not as simple as this but..... What would have stopped Delta Management from telling it's pilots getting hired by Comair to "just cross your fingers behind your back when resigning your number at Comair" and promised to have their Delta senority numbers waiting for them when they wanted them back?

Could the Delta pilots have all voted to agree to do this for their furloughed pilots (put their senoirty in "limbo status"? If so, Delta management could have ended this.

Again, just lookin for "sum edjumication".

 

[General Lee]

Klamath,

We asked our VP of flt ops that same question and his response was, "That would be dishonest..." A lot of our guys dislike him.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wil]

I have learned a lot from the various furloughees that I have flown with to date. It is invaluable to have someone in the right seat who has "been there done that". Given the turbulent (sorry) nature of our business I think it is BS to make someone sign away their seniority rights. I don't know if it is too late for Comair to rethink their policy but given the current climate they would be wise to do so. Fly safe- Wil

 

[~~~^~~~]

Will: I agree. The Delta guys who have flown with me have been top notch, good pilots with good attitudes.

I can see Lawson trying to help his people out.... He sure as heck didn't just "offer" to help our guys right off the bat. He wanted something in return.

That Sir, is called negotiation. Bill Buergey came in and refused to negotiate - by definition - that is a "demand." Your MEC is spinning this to again whip up hate and resentment for pilots on the Delta property - I'm posting to anyone who will read it that this sort of politics is counter productive to our long term needs.

In the mean time, DCI got a HUGE percentage increase while we were downsizing. Sure, we had some overcapacity problems at the time and that probably was a smart thing to do, but DCI grew a lot more that was previously allowed by our contract, signed by LEO. You got to expand, and we got to shrink.

Not really true, although your perspective is understandable. All along, ALPA & Delta management has worked to keep the percentage of DCI flying at the number which would allow the delivery of the aircraft on firm order. If you notice, we hit the scope limits just sa our last airplanes are rolling in, perhaps a little before, but the percentage has always been driven by the firm orders. Otherwise, DCI would have had to furlough for no reason at all, other than our own union's bargaining.

Delta has admitted in serveral articles that we are now scope constrained and have to address scope before DCI could excercise any options, or operate additional aircraft.

And we have not been growing - we have been re-equipping. In growth, people upgrade. The last three, or four, bids at my airline have included displacements because we are reducing pilot slots (believe me, I know and I picked up the books to start studying for my downgrade) I know it looks like growth to you because our ASM's keep increasing, but consider that an RJ cranks out 3 times the ASMs of an EMB120 and the CR7 produces nearly 5 times the ASMs per flight. 500% is a huge number!

I say you guys won and a lot of people got free upgrades in the process. That is good for you, but some of you still want to expand at our expense, and we will still have 1060 pilots out as of Dec 1st.

I want your furloughees back too, maybe as much as you do - simply because then my union will not be so intently focused on destroying my airline.

As you agree - we are in this together. You need DCI feed and we need an international airline network to feed. Delta furloughed less and for a shorter period of time - due to the strength of the network with RJ feed. If DCI expands - you expand. There is only so much that can be done with an RJ, it is not a 737-800 and not cost competitive on anything but its niche.

Thanks for your reply! Have a great one.

~~~^~~~

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

In negotitations, not everybody gets what they want. You and I both know this. Buergey probably wanted something that the other MEC chairs were not willing to give up. Same goes for what Lawson wanted. But, in the end, only DCI really got something, and that was a percentage increase. As far as ASA gaining upgrades etc, it looks like management is playing hardball with you, again. The percentages are there, but Chataqua is really getting the extra planes and flights. During your negotiations you will be subjected to "you cost too much," and "That is too expensive..." We have all seen this before.

Also, I have an interesting article about the new 7E7 and Delta that I will put on a new thread. It is interesting that they can talk about paycuts etc, and yet talk to Boeing about new aquisitions.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FurloughedAgain]

According to another thread regarding the CHQ T/A, they will be taking an additional 30 airplanes for DCI.

Thats roughly 300 pilot positions that will not be available for Delta OR Delta Connection.

 

[General Lee]

Furloughedagain,

Apparently DCI hasn't even reached the percentage quota that they are now allowed to have, and apparently Chataqua is the big winner, not ASA or Comair. I wonder what the Chataqua pay rates will be, and I wonder what ASA will ask for or get?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Yea, right....bite that carrot, guys, bite that carrot! You'll be remembered after all the Capt's sons, daughters, cousins, nephews, etc....Also, don't forget all the military buddies that are waiting to get on.

Oh you Comair guys never cease to amaze me. As an ASA pilot, I don't give a rat's ass whether or not our hiring of furloughed Delta pilots helps me or any of my co-workers get a job at Delta. Quite honestly, I seriously doubt that it will carry a whole lot of weight. Having said that, I still FIRMLY believe that hiring a furloughed Delta pilot or United pilot or whoever without requiring them to give up their seniority number is just the right thing to do. I don't get excited about who is or isn't on my seniority list as long as they're hired into the bottom. I'm happy to have all of you.

You know, for a group of professional pilots, you Comair guys are about the biggest d@mn babies I have ever seen.