General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Please read this article, and tell me why Delta would be already looking at a new aircraft while still asking for major paycuts. Maybe because they want them to pay for the new planes.
7E7 Watch
Boeing getting airlines' feedback
By Melissa Allison
Chicago Tribune
It has been touted as a revolutionary product for a faltering industry. A sketch depicts it flying above majestic clouds. And it carries a dreamy name.
Aside from that, few details are available regarding the 7E7 Dreamliner, Boeing's latest plan for a new passenger jet.
Boeing has used a broad brush to describe its vision of a superefficient jet, using 15 to 20 percent less fuel than the current generation of wide-body jets, and seating 200 to 250 passengers.
Airlines love the concept, and Boeing is working with about 40 of them worldwide to determine aspects of the 7E7 such as its seat configuration, cockpit design and how far it will fly.
Some major airlines are barely participating in the discussions, preoccupied at the moment with survival.
"It's difficult to get airlines to really talk about specific demands when their very business models are under question," said Richard Aboulafia, aerospace analyst at the Teal Group.
Other airlines take Boeing's interest in feedback to heart. Perhaps the most vocal participant in the 7E7 arena is Gordon Bethune, chief executive of Continental Airlines and a former Boeing executive.
What Bethune wants most is a standardized airplane instead of models highly customized to suit airlines. A common airplane would cost less, would cut pilot training costs because of standardized cockpits and could make financing less risky because many airlines would be flying the same standardized plane, he figures.
Bethune said Boeing has done a good job of listening to its customers, but airlines "were kind of stupid in asking Boeing to do things that don't add value and drive up costs."
Boeing executives say they plan to minimize choices on the 7E7. For example, there will not be 50 offerings for cup holders in the cockpits of the 7E7, as there are on some Boeing jets. And the 7E7 is expected to have just one type of landing gear.
But Boeing is not making a one-size-fits-all airplane.
After talking to Asian carriers, which often make short hops within countries, Boeing is considering making a shorter-range version of the 7E7. Current plans call for a long-range jet, flying up to 8,000 nautical miles.
A shorter-range 7E7 would appeal to discount carrier ATA Airlines, said founder and chief executive George Mikelsons. But if a long-range version is all Boeing produces, "if we fall in love and find the costs are low, we will construct routes that fit the airplane," he said.
ATA's discussions with Boeing have been few and informal, Mikelsons said, probably because ATA is a small carrier.
Delta Air Lines, on the other hand, has had several meetings with Boeing executives regarding the 7E7. It is considered a potentially key customer for the new plane, which is expected to be roughly comparable in size to the many 767s Delta flies on short- and long-range flights. Boeing hopes to offer that flexibility in the 7E7.
Delta has talked to Boeing about everything from entertainment systems to range capabilities to the value of having sensors that would determine the structural health of the airplane. Some of the concepts are brought by Boeing. Others come from Delta.
"We've been pretty vocal on what the cockpit needs to look like. A huge cost for airlines is pilot training, and this airplane needs to be identical to the 777 cockpit," said John Burtz, who runs aircraft acquisition and sales for Delta.
That would make cross-training pilots for the two types of planes easier and less expensive, Burtz said. Delta prefers the 777 cockpit because it is one of the most advanced in the world, and 777 pilots would be paid roughly the same as 7E7 pilots.
The one item that is non-
negotiable for the 7E7 is its efficiency, Burtz said. He has been told that overall operating costs for the 7E7 should be 20 percent below the costs of Delta's existing planes.
"If they're able to hit a 20 percent reduction, that's going to be pretty dramatic," he said. "They've been told by all the airlines that if they get 6 or 7 percent better than existing airplanes, they probably need to go back and scrub it again."
Bye Bye--General Lee
7E7 Watch
Boeing getting airlines' feedback
By Melissa Allison
Chicago Tribune
It has been touted as a revolutionary product for a faltering industry. A sketch depicts it flying above majestic clouds. And it carries a dreamy name.
Aside from that, few details are available regarding the 7E7 Dreamliner, Boeing's latest plan for a new passenger jet.
Boeing has used a broad brush to describe its vision of a superefficient jet, using 15 to 20 percent less fuel than the current generation of wide-body jets, and seating 200 to 250 passengers.
Airlines love the concept, and Boeing is working with about 40 of them worldwide to determine aspects of the 7E7 such as its seat configuration, cockpit design and how far it will fly.
Some major airlines are barely participating in the discussions, preoccupied at the moment with survival.
"It's difficult to get airlines to really talk about specific demands when their very business models are under question," said Richard Aboulafia, aerospace analyst at the Teal Group.
Other airlines take Boeing's interest in feedback to heart. Perhaps the most vocal participant in the 7E7 arena is Gordon Bethune, chief executive of Continental Airlines and a former Boeing executive.
What Bethune wants most is a standardized airplane instead of models highly customized to suit airlines. A common airplane would cost less, would cut pilot training costs because of standardized cockpits and could make financing less risky because many airlines would be flying the same standardized plane, he figures.
Bethune said Boeing has done a good job of listening to its customers, but airlines "were kind of stupid in asking Boeing to do things that don't add value and drive up costs."
Boeing executives say they plan to minimize choices on the 7E7. For example, there will not be 50 offerings for cup holders in the cockpits of the 7E7, as there are on some Boeing jets. And the 7E7 is expected to have just one type of landing gear.
But Boeing is not making a one-size-fits-all airplane.
After talking to Asian carriers, which often make short hops within countries, Boeing is considering making a shorter-range version of the 7E7. Current plans call for a long-range jet, flying up to 8,000 nautical miles.
A shorter-range 7E7 would appeal to discount carrier ATA Airlines, said founder and chief executive George Mikelsons. But if a long-range version is all Boeing produces, "if we fall in love and find the costs are low, we will construct routes that fit the airplane," he said.
ATA's discussions with Boeing have been few and informal, Mikelsons said, probably because ATA is a small carrier.
Delta Air Lines, on the other hand, has had several meetings with Boeing executives regarding the 7E7. It is considered a potentially key customer for the new plane, which is expected to be roughly comparable in size to the many 767s Delta flies on short- and long-range flights. Boeing hopes to offer that flexibility in the 7E7.
Delta has talked to Boeing about everything from entertainment systems to range capabilities to the value of having sensors that would determine the structural health of the airplane. Some of the concepts are brought by Boeing. Others come from Delta.
"We've been pretty vocal on what the cockpit needs to look like. A huge cost for airlines is pilot training, and this airplane needs to be identical to the 777 cockpit," said John Burtz, who runs aircraft acquisition and sales for Delta.
That would make cross-training pilots for the two types of planes easier and less expensive, Burtz said. Delta prefers the 777 cockpit because it is one of the most advanced in the world, and 777 pilots would be paid roughly the same as 7E7 pilots.
The one item that is non-
negotiable for the 7E7 is its efficiency, Burtz said. He has been told that overall operating costs for the 7E7 should be 20 percent below the costs of Delta's existing planes.
"If they're able to hit a 20 percent reduction, that's going to be pretty dramatic," he said. "They've been told by all the airlines that if they get 6 or 7 percent better than existing airplanes, they probably need to go back and scrub it again."
Bye Bye--General Lee
