Delta and possible BK

[no_land_3]

On Your Six

Well said. A lot of "incessant crap" coming from everywhere.

Until those questions you posted are addressed to my satisfaction along with a sound business plan, I'm not willing to give up any part of my contract.

land_on_3
looking forward to the May pay raise

 

[Ty Webb]

What is with the feeding frenzy? Ease up on the General. I think the blame is squarely on the shoulders of DAL management, and rightfully so.

Mullin screwed the pooch by continuing to use dinosaur tactics when they clearly were not working (operating flights at a loss to "preserve marketshare" on routes that they could not make money on) and bled the company of its cash. Then, he paid McKinsey (what a joke) millions to dream up Song, probably in an effort to deflect shareholders wrath so that they could say they were "doing something".

I think they should have focused on fixing their pricing (a la AWA) and focused on service, efficiency, and got ALL groups to give, early on, with management leading BY EXAMPLE.

 

[350DRIVER]

____________________________________________________
My simple plan for Southwest success (so far…)
1. Earn industry lowest pay for the last 15 years…competitive now only because everyone else has had to lower their pay to match yours.
2. Fly 5 legs a day, chalk the airplane, load baggage(these two I actually witnessed last week in Midway), and clean the crap out of the seat backs while the FO runs to BK for Whoppers because you are tired of crew meals consisting of peanuts and Lorna Doones.
3. Loose the “American Flag” tie you so proudly sport. You weren’t affected by 9-11 and you don’t even fly to any place affected by it. Let’s lay off the patriotic plea for attention and sympathy.
4. Be Southwest, fly me to Moline and be nice about it.
____________________________________________________


furloughfodder,

Amen.. What is even more comical is that before they even get to this point they gotta go out and "buy" themselves a 737 type.. If that is not a slap in the face then I surely do not know what is. The SWA group has very little if any room to talk regarding this issue..

General,

I can only wish for the best for all of you guys over at Delta. Ignore the b!tching and whining coming from the few on this board.

Comparing DAL to SWA is like saying that Moline is just as "scenic" and just as nice as Cancun and the many other better places.. You have got to be kidding..

get real

3 5 0

 

[General Lee]

Les,

Easy on TY---he actually does seem to know his stuff. I know you guys love to battle it out, but he is right about Mullin and his terrible job. We would have given him needed money back when he was in charge too, but we always wanted to know that we could eventually get it back. He never took the deal. Then, he took $16 million and left.

T45flyer,

You really do seem a tad bit cocky. I am glad you are not in my situation. We here at Delta are faced with a management that likes to pit employee groups against each other, and work forces (ASA/Comair against the rest of DCI--and Delta mainline) against each other. Then, after they admit that earlier management "screwed up"--they want to zero in on the one thing that has been a constant--the pilot contract--a fixed cost. Yes, it is expensive and there needs to be change---but without going to the rest of the work force and only going after the only negotiated contract is ridiculous. They are trying to be union busters.

As far as losing my cool---I don't think I did that. I have a strong opinion sometimes, and I feel strongly about this issue. I can't believe you guys can't see the forest through the trees sometimes. This "demanding" from the company is obviously wrong--especially when we are coming to the table early to negotiate. Why? Because we do care---and they have other options in the mean time to gain money. Also, we need to see a good plan here---look at Siegel at USAir. He has plundered the labor contracts and still has no plan. Also, Song is doing better than you know. Salvaggio showed Grinstein the numbers last week and they are holding off on canning it. But you really don't have a copy of the books. Some of that big loss you were talking about also has the "voluntary" pre-funding of the pension plans---early. Why would anyone do that? Hmmmmm? As far as being productive---we have a clause in our contract that PROTECTS our pilots from unnecessary furloughs---and we also have 8 types of planes--so many of our "unproductive" pilots are in training---which lowers the productivity of our total pilots. But you guys at Southwest wouldn't know that. You say be "proactive" instead of "reactive"---are you talking to me? I just drive the bus. That isn't my fault---don't blame me. And, sure--you can go to Europe with us---but you will have to buy a ticket. I am pretty sure we will be very very full this summer----losing money of course....

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[T45Flyer]

A Clue....

Furlow,

First of all, I hope that you did throw up and are feeling better. Anger in the stomach will give ya an ulcer. No charge for my medical services.

Second. Believe me, I am very happy to hear that so many of the folks here hate their company and have taken the "I will get mine" and management is just a bunch of liars. I realize those little things called Quarterly Reports are just a management ploy are are a bunch of made up lies. Your resolve only ensure my job security and my company's future success. Keep up the good work! Your name says it all.

Delta Po Boy,

I do agree with you in terms of havinng to analyze the situation. Although, I do believe that you and your union do also control item #2 of my Delta recovery plan. Easing your work rules and becoming more productive.

I understand that you want to hear Mgmts proposal on how thier going to use your pay cuts, but it seems to me that just lowering your costs is a great start. Instead of dragging on talks till your contracts up, why not start immediately, how long does it take to analyze the books? When your union walks out of negotiations consistantly it seems that you will never find a way to meet in the middle.

I did despise Mullin and his crew and am glad to see him gone, I cant believe these guys can look themselves in the face everyday. But not working this thing out immmediately is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[General Lee]

T45flyer,

Come on man, you are the one losing it now. Yes, all of those quarterly reports say a lot--don't they? What about that pre-funding of the pension($400 million)---even though they didn't have to because pension reform will be here before any of that was really due. Does that seem fishy to you? No? Yeah, companies would never move money around. And, there are other things that make me wonder--like the 11 MD-11s that are parked. We are still paying over $15,000 a day for each of them--as they sit in the desert. We parked them before the Iraq fight because someone at headquarters thought nobody would fly last summer. Boy oh boy were they wrong---and we will fly more this Summer. Could we take them out and get them flying again? We still have the sims---and we have plenty of pilots that would fly them so they could make money flying INTL routes with no LCC competition..... You keep saying we aren't very productive. Well, we will never be a Southwest---because we have a huge hub system---and our Song operation is closer to yours because we stay out of hubs mostly on that airline and have tighter turn times. We can never have your productivity because we don't fly in a straight line seven stops across the country like you do.

So, what is the plan here? Good question---and it should be here July 1st according to Grinstein. Until then---we will still be waiting to negotiate. And another thing---quit slamming furloughed pilots---it makes you look even worse.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[T45Flyer]

general,

I whole heartedly agree with you that you will have very full planes this summer and that you will be losing lots of money. That said..

Answer me this:
How will you ever fix Deltas problems if you distrust your management so much. Will your problems just go away?

I agree with you that I am very fortunate to not have your companys work problems. I believe that is in due part to the fact that the guys that worked here before me, whom a lot of them made millions, left thier ego at home and decided to work as a team with the company for some stake in the outcome.

 

[T45Flyer]

General,
For the record, I did not slam Furlow because he was out of a job, he is just an id!ot.

Being furloughed does not grant you some divine status to make stupid statements without reprecussions. By the way we don't serve Moline yet, thats either ATA or Airtran, I forgot. But I do here Moline is beautiful in the summer, maybe someday!

 

[General Lee]

T45flyer,

Yeah, like your team playing attitude with the Southwest Flight attendants.....yeah right. Your senior guys also screwed over your junior guys when they got stock options and the junior ones did not get raises.....Team players....

I am glad that you forcast huge losses for us this summer. I doubt it, but remember this is also a revenue problem. There are plenty of routes that Delta could add $5 to $10 a leg and there would be no competition---but they do not. Why would they try to make any money when asking for concessions? I don't know if that is exactly the case, but you have to ask that question. I bet we have losses every quarter until we give up what they want--and then we out of nowhere make money again.....

Maybe you have been in the Military too long, and maybe you are new to the airlines. (Airtran goes to Moline)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[T45Flyer]

General,

Yes, I was in the military to long!

About Southwest, you are correct that there was a unfair distrubution of the pilot stock options between the old dudes and the guys that followed. There was a Stock Option Repair Grant in the contract extension we are operating under currently but it was just a band-aid.
As far as the flight attendents, I do not know how this is going to turn out. We will see. They deserve much higher trip pay than they are currently getting I do agree. I do wish thier contract would be settled quickly and that they get the pay and retro that they deserve. I believe some of the sticking points might be on holiday pay, retro pay, and ground time pay.

Overall, I do believe that the unions and management do "normally" work together well and work as a team. Southwest is the most unionized company out there and has been amazingly profitable.

Thread creep over.

 

[350DRIVER]

General,

You are a Delta pilot, enough said. Be fortunate you are at Delta and not at Southwest. The first page of this thread made it as clear as day. You can surely tell those who fly for SWA and those who do not by the posts on this board. It is always comical to see the differences between the pax who fly on luv and those who spend the extra money to step up to a Delta. General, DAL ain't going anywhere anytime soon and I praise your efforts and that of the entire DAL pilot group not to swoop to the lower rates of some carriers.. Give em he!! and I am sure all will work out for the best. I have many friends at Delta and I can only wish you all the best and as most do I stand behind the entire group.

Slamming furloughed pilots makes you look very weak and shows that you have about the same level of credibility of a used care salesman.


get real

3 5 0

 

[General Lee]

T45driver,

I wish we had the same type of "unity" you guys have, but we do not. Our management doesn't seem to want to have the same type of 'loyalty" that your management has with you. What can we do about it? Give in? We want to NEGOTIATE--and we also want everyone to share in this problem, since we all have something to lose. We, of course, would take the biggest hit---but everyone should participate somehow. That's how this works, and I also hope we actually get a good plan from Grinstein. It will be easier to "give" when we know where we are going.



350driver,

Thanks for your kind words, and I just want this to be over and for us to all go forward. I think there should be some pay cuts, but they have to be fair and there has to be a plan. Hopefully that will happen. Take care.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[furloughfodder]

Furlough [SIC],

First of all, I hope that you did throw up and are feeling better. Anger in the stomach will give ya an ulcer. No charge for my medical services.

Second. Believe me, I am very happy to hear that so many of the folks here hate their company and have taken the "I will get mine" and management is just a bunch of liars. I realize those little things called Quarterly Reports are just a management ploy and are [SIC] a bunch of made up lies. Your resolve only ensures [SIC] my job security and my company's future success. Keep up the good work! Your name says it all.

Delta Po Boy,

I do agree with you in terms of having [SIC] to analyze the situation. Although, I do believe that you and your union do also control item #2 of my Delta recovery plan. Easing your work rules and becoming more productive.

I understand that you want to hear Mgmts proposal on how their [SIC] going to use your pay cuts, but it seems to me that just lowering your costs is a great start. Instead of dragging on talks till your contracts up, why not start immediately, how long does it take to analyze the books? When your union walks out of negotiations consistently [SIC] it seems that you will never find a way to meet in the middle.

I did despise Mullin and his crew and am glad to see him gone, I can’t [SIC] believe these guys can look themselves in the face everyday. But not working this thing out immediately [SIC] is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

So…how are those flight attendant contract negotiations coming along there chief? It is pretty sad to see a situation where the F/A’s have more balls than the pilots.

You paint a pretty rosy picture over there, and it is rosy right now. But things change, especially in this industry. You may learn that as you gain more experience. At some point the workgroups at the number one airline are going to demand industry leading compensation. How about a retirement fund? Costs at LUV will go up, and when they do, you had better hope that your beloved management is savvy enough to outwit you… otherwise you may find yourself in the same situation many of us at the majors are in.

 

[Ty Webb]

Les:

Running an airline and flying for one are two completely different things. I have quite a bit of experience in the business world, you apparently do not, which explains why you choose to attack me personally.

You can post whatever you want, but as I said before, I think you are a very unhappy person who needs some professional help, and I meant that.

I won't be responding to any more of your posts. Have a nice life.

 

[canyonblue]

It is pretty sad to see a situation where the F/A’s have more balls than the pilots.

85% of our Flight Attendants are FEMALE, so I think you may be incorrect.

 

[MedFlyer]

I am glad that you forcast huge losses for us this summer. I doubt it, but remember this is also a revenue problem. There are plenty of routes that Delta could add $5 to $10 a leg and there would be no competition---but they do not. Why would they try to make any money when asking for concessions?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Do you know for a fact that Delta hasn't raised fares on these routes? I've priced some tickets out of small towns and trust me fares are plenty high. Unfortunately, people in small towns are tired of being screwed by DL (and others). If you keep raising fares on them, they will simply get in there cars and drive to an airport where fares are lower. Yes, gas prices may be higher, but if you can save $300-400 on a ticket, you won't mind spending an extra $20 on gas. Sorry General, but your screw small towns and international cities plan won't fly. People have alternatives.

What I want to know is why the pilots think DL management has to lay out some grand plan in order to get concessions? Does DALPA think they run the airline?

As far as I can see and have heard, Grinstein has already laid out the plan for DL. DL needs to improve customer service (which should help on the revenue side) and DL needs to lower costs in order to be an effective competitor. There's the plan. Real simple.

If DL offers a quality product with a reasonable fare structure and has costs to match, everything else will be pretty much taken care.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Talk about drivel. I don't think I have read a single post of yours where you aren't attacking someone personally. Maybe you should check with the doc again.

 

[English]

Talk about drivel. I don't think I have read a single post of yours where you aren't attacking someone personally. Maybe you should check with the doc again.

I agree. If one disagrees with Les Paul, he turns to a personal attack rather than polite debate and discussion.

 

[Delta Po Boy]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know for a fact that Delta hasn't raised fares on these routes? I've priced some tickets out of small towns and trust me fares are plenty high. Unfortunately, people in small towns are tired of being screwed by DL (and others). If YOU keep raising fares on them, they will simply get in there cars and drive to an airport where fares are lower. Yes, gas prices may be higher, but if you can save $300-400 on a ticket, you won't mind spending an extra $20 on gas. Sorry General, but YOU'RE screw small towns and international cities plan won't fly. People have alternatives.

What I want to know is why the pilots think DL management has to lay out some grand plan in order to get concessions? Does DALPA think they run the airline?
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MEDFLYER,

Did you read what you posted? You accuse General Lee (i.e. the pilot group) of screwing the small towns and raising fares are them. MANAGEMENT determines ticket prices and develops a marketing strategy. Granted, pilot pay is one of the fixed costs that goes into the pricing model but, contrary to the management propaganda, a VERY small portion of the fixed costs.

In the very next sentence, you ask why the pilots need a "grand plan" to offer concessions. Let's see, management allocated MILLIONS of company money for an executive compensation plan while the company was losing millions. We've financed millions of dollars for RJ's that do not fly for mainline. Grinstein just signed a contract for a designer to develop new flight attendant uniforms (again, costing millions of dollars). Gee MedFlyer, I have no idea why the pilots want to know what the plan is before they fork over 40% in concessions!

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As far as I can see and have heard, Grinstein has already laid out the plan for DL. DL needs to improve customer service (which should help on the revenue side) and DL needs to lower costs in order to be an effective competitor. There's the plan. Real simple.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, so THAT's the plan. Now I see! OK, the pilot group can give 40% in concessions based on that info! I didn't know it was that simple. Who needs specifics when we have such an obvious plan!

 

[On Your Six]

I think everyone sees that cuts are necessary to compete with the LCCs better. That is pretty clear. However, a comprehensive plan should be spelled out (hopefully in July as Grinstein says) before a wage cut "investment" is made. That's pretty logical I would think... Siegel has been cutting costs nonstop but his airline is going NOWHERE FAST... The part about the expensive MD-11s parked in the desert (at something like $15K per day each) makes me want to puke... What a waste! Who makes these decisions?

Let's see the plan before we decide how to FINANCE it...