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Delta and possible BK

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General,

You are a Delta pilot, enough said. Be fortunate you are at Delta and not at Southwest. The first page of this thread made it as clear as day. You can surely tell those who fly for SWA and those who do not by the posts on this board. It is always comical to see the differences between the pax who fly on luv and those who spend the extra money to step up to a Delta. General, DAL ain't going anywhere anytime soon and I praise your efforts and that of the entire DAL pilot group not to swoop to the lower rates of some carriers.. Give em he!! and I am sure all will work out for the best. I have many friends at Delta and I can only wish you all the best and as most do I stand behind the entire group.

Slamming furloughed pilots makes you look very weak and shows that you have about the same level of credibility of a used care salesman.


get real

3 5 0
 
T45driver,

I wish we had the same type of "unity" you guys have, but we do not. Our management doesn't seem to want to have the same type of 'loyalty" that your management has with you. What can we do about it? Give in? We want to NEGOTIATE--and we also want everyone to share in this problem, since we all have something to lose. We, of course, would take the biggest hit---but everyone should participate somehow. That's how this works, and I also hope we actually get a good plan from Grinstein. It will be easier to "give" when we know where we are going.



350driver,

Thanks for your kind words, and I just want this to be over and for us to all go forward. I think there should be some pay cuts, but they have to be fair and there has to be a plan. Hopefully that will happen. Take care.


Bye Bye---General Lee:rolleyes:
 
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T45Flyer said:
Furlough [SIC],

First of all, I hope that you did throw up and are feeling better. Anger in the stomach will give ya an ulcer. No charge for my medical services.

Second. Believe me, I am very happy to hear that so many of the folks here hate their company and have taken the "I will get mine" and management is just a bunch of liars. I realize those little things called Quarterly Reports are just a management ploy and are [SIC] a bunch of made up lies. Your resolve only ensures [SIC] my job security and my company's future success. Keep up the good work! Your name says it all.

Delta Po Boy,

I do agree with you in terms of having [SIC] to analyze the situation. Although, I do believe that you and your union do also control item #2 of my Delta recovery plan. Easing your work rules and becoming more productive.

I understand that you want to hear Mgmts proposal on how their [SIC] going to use your pay cuts, but it seems to me that just lowering your costs is a great start. Instead of dragging on talks till your contracts up, why not start immediately, how long does it take to analyze the books? When your union walks out of negotiations consistently [SIC] it seems that you will never find a way to meet in the middle.

I did despise Mullin and his crew and am glad to see him gone, I can’t [SIC] believe these guys can look themselves in the face everyday. But not working this thing out immediately [SIC] is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

So…how are those flight attendant contract negotiations coming along there chief? It is pretty sad to see a situation where the F/A’s have more balls than the pilots.

You paint a pretty rosy picture over there, and it is rosy right now. But things change, especially in this industry. You may learn that as you gain more experience. At some point the workgroups at the number one airline are going to demand industry leading compensation. How about a retirement fund? Costs at LUV will go up, and when they do, you had better hope that your beloved management is savvy enough to outwit you… otherwise you may find yourself in the same situation many of us at the majors are in.
 
Les:

Running an airline and flying for one are two completely different things. I have quite a bit of experience in the business world, you apparently do not, which explains why you choose to attack me personally.

You can post whatever you want, but as I said before, I think you are a very unhappy person who needs some professional help, and I meant that.

I won't be responding to any more of your posts. Have a nice life.
 
furloughfodder said:
It is pretty sad to see a situation where the F/A’s have more balls than the pilots.

85% of our Flight Attendants are FEMALE, so I think you may be incorrect.
 
General Lee said:
I am glad that you forcast huge losses for us this summer. I doubt it, but remember this is also a revenue problem. There are plenty of routes that Delta could add $5 to $10 a leg and there would be no competition---but they do not. Why would they try to make any money when asking for concessions?

Bye Bye--General Lee;)

Do you know for a fact that Delta hasn't raised fares on these routes? I've priced some tickets out of small towns and trust me fares are plenty high. Unfortunately, people in small towns are tired of being screwed by DL (and others). If you keep raising fares on them, they will simply get in there cars and drive to an airport where fares are lower. Yes, gas prices may be higher, but if you can save $300-400 on a ticket, you won't mind spending an extra $20 on gas. Sorry General, but your screw small towns and international cities plan won't fly. People have alternatives.

What I want to know is why the pilots think DL management has to lay out some grand plan in order to get concessions? Does DALPA think they run the airline?

As far as I can see and have heard, Grinstein has already laid out the plan for DL. DL needs to improve customer service (which should help on the revenue side) and DL needs to lower costs in order to be an effective competitor. There's the plan. Real simple.

If DL offers a quality product with a reasonable fare structure and has costs to match, everything else will be pretty much taken care.
 
Talk about drivel. I don't think I have read a single post of yours where you aren't attacking someone personally. Maybe you should check with the doc again.
 
ATR-DRIVR said:
Talk about drivel. I don't think I have read a single post of yours where you aren't attacking someone personally. Maybe you should check with the doc again.

I agree. If one disagrees with Les Paul, he turns to a personal attack rather than polite debate and discussion.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know for a fact that Delta hasn't raised fares on these routes? I've priced some tickets out of small towns and trust me fares are plenty high. Unfortunately, people in small towns are tired of being screwed by DL (and others). If YOU keep raising fares on them, they will simply get in there cars and drive to an airport where fares are lower. Yes, gas prices may be higher, but if you can save $300-400 on a ticket, you won't mind spending an extra $20 on gas. Sorry General, but YOU'RE screw small towns and international cities plan won't fly. People have alternatives.

What I want to know is why the pilots think DL management has to lay out some grand plan in order to get concessions? Does DALPA think they run the airline?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MEDFLYER,

Did you read what you posted? You accuse General Lee (i.e. the pilot group) of screwing the small towns and raising fares are them. MANAGEMENT determines ticket prices and develops a marketing strategy. Granted, pilot pay is one of the fixed costs that goes into the pricing model but, contrary to the management propaganda, a VERY small portion of the fixed costs.

In the very next sentence, you ask why the pilots need a "grand plan" to offer concessions. Let's see, management allocated MILLIONS of company money for an executive compensation plan while the company was losing millions. We've financed millions of dollars for RJ's that do not fly for mainline. Grinstein just signed a contract for a designer to develop new flight attendant uniforms (again, costing millions of dollars). Gee MedFlyer, I have no idea why the pilots want to know what the plan is before they fork over 40% in concessions!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as I can see and have heard, Grinstein has already laid out the plan for DL. DL needs to improve customer service (which should help on the revenue side) and DL needs to lower costs in order to be an effective competitor. There's the plan. Real simple.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, so THAT's the plan. Now I see! OK, the pilot group can give 40% in concessions based on that info! I didn't know it was that simple. Who needs specifics when we have such an obvious plan!
 
I think everyone sees that cuts are necessary to compete with the LCCs better. That is pretty clear. However, a comprehensive plan should be spelled out (hopefully in July as Grinstein says) before a wage cut "investment" is made. That's pretty logical I would think... Siegel has been cutting costs nonstop but his airline is going NOWHERE FAST... The part about the expensive MD-11s parked in the desert (at something like $15K per day each) makes me want to puke... What a waste! Who makes these decisions?

Let's see the plan before we decide how to FINANCE it...
 
Low-fare carriers dominate top spots in AQR; Jet Blue is new No. 1


Three of the top four performing airlines are low-fare carriers, according to the national Airline Quality Rating (AQR) study. The 14th annual study, ranking the 14 largest U.S. airlines, was announced today (April 5) at a news conference in Washington, D.C. Jet Blue debuted in the Airline Quality Rating as the No. 1 ranked airline. Alaska was No. 2, and Southwest, America West and US Airways round out the top five.

The overall airline industry performed slightly better in 2003 than in 2002, thanks to a significant drop in customer complaints. Of the 10 carriers rated in both 2002 and 2003, only American Airlines and US Airways had a decline in their AQR scores. Airlines rated for the first time are Jet Blue, AirTran, ATA and Atlantic Southeast.

The AQR is a summary of month-by-month quality ratings for the largest domestic U.S. airlines operating during 2003. Co-researchers Brent Bowen, director and professor, University of Nebraska at Omaha (UNO) Aviation Institute/School of Public Administration and Dean Headley, associate professor of marketing at Wichita State University (WSU), used 15 elements important to consumers when judging the quality of airline service.

The rating is conducted annually by the UNO Aviation Institute and W. Frank Barton School of Business at WSU. The AQR, as an industry standard, provides consumers and industry watchers a means to compare quality among airlines using objective performance-based data. It is a cooperative research project funded as part of faculty research activities at UNO and WSU.

The AQR ranked the 14 largest airlines for 2003 as follows: 1) Jet Blue, 2) Alaska,

3) Southwest, 4) America West, 5) US Airways, 6) Northwest, 7) Continental, 8) AirTran,

9) United, 10) ATA, 11) American, 12) Delta, 13) American Eagle, and 14) Atlantic Southeast.

"The low-fare carriers are definitely solid in their ability to attract passengers, and it shows in the market share gains that they're making," said Headley. In 1991, low-fare carriers only had about 4 percent of the market share. Today, low-fare carriers have about 25 percent of market share. That number could climb to nearly 40 percent in the next few years.

"This year's AQR adds further evidence to the emerging performance gap between the legacy carriers and the no-frills network carriers," said Bowen.




Airline Quality Rating/page 2 April 5, 2004


Criteria included in the AQR are screened to meet two basic elements: They must be readily obtainable from published data sources for each airline, and they must be important to consumers regarding airline quality. The resulting criteria include areas such as baggage handling, customer complaints, denied boardings and on-time arrivals.


Other major industry findings in this year's research study include:

• Overall airline quality improved for the third consecutive year.

• Airline performance declined slightly in the areas of on-time arrivals, involuntary denied boardings and mishandled baggage.

• Customer complaints in 2003 dropped by nearly 50 percent compared to 2002.

• Northwest was the most improved airline in 2003.

• The mishandled baggage rate for American Eagle was more than double the industry rate.

• Jet Blue was easily the top-rated airline in fewest denied boardings, and second in on-time performance and fewest customer complaints.
It is always comical to see the differences between the pax who fly on luv and those who spend the extra money to step up to a Delta.
I believe that you believe that.
Keep telling yourself it's a "step up" if it makes you feel better, but apparently the flying public doesn't see it that way.

AMF
 
Xremeflyer,

That study originates from college students in Wichita, KS. Most of them have never left the state of Kansas. Even Micheal Boyd slams them every year. But, I would have to agree that Delta probably shouldn't be ranked very high. Most of our mainline flight attendants are older and wider, and aren't as "fun" as the younger and more energetic ones at some of the LCCs---that is the truth. Our "talent" at Song is an improvement---believe it or not---but their numbers aren't as large as mainline. I wish we could get a retirement package (costing more $$$---hey---we could fund it--the pilots) and get rid of a large chunk (good analogy) so some of the younger furloughed ones could come back---costing the company less (hourly wage) in the process. Sad but true.

Bye Bye---General Lee;)
 
350DRIVER said:
I praise your efforts and that of the entire DAL pilot group not to swoop to the lower rates of some carriers..

Such as.......................America West?
 
JetBlue leading the list? What a joke. What do they have now? Something like 60 airplanes?
 
Such as.......................America West?

Canyon,

HP does not even swoop to the low levels of those at SWA, the tactics that you guys pull on a daily basis is enough to make most sick. This is not an America West versus Southwest issue nor will I partake in hijacking this thread into making it one, I was simply pointing out that Delta is a much more respected carrier and I could not imagine anyone wanting to go to SWA over DAL if given the choice. The response came after one of your very own went and slammed General and the furloughed group which was uncalled for. You guys don't have too much to brag about, unless you enjoy that "type" of lifestyle.

Thanks for your kind words, and I just want this to be over and for us to all go forward. I think there should be some pay cuts, but they have to be fair and there has to be a plan. Hopefully that will happen. Take care.

General,
It is always a pleasure to read your educated and well thought out posts, I just hope you guys can get the 1060 back soon.. My thoughts are with you guys as well as many others who frequent this board. Obviously the group is going to have to give in to some sort of pay cuts but as you have stated there needs to be a "plan" in place before you guys do this. I don't think you guys are forced into a "do it now" situtation, many are behind your pilot group on this one. You get what you negotiate and bargain for and you guys have too much of your lives invested in this just to cave in to management and what they are trying to sell.


good luck,

3 5 0
 
I haven't been following this thread so not sure what prompted your reply, but from what I can tell your a dipsh!t Les Paul.
 
WOW!

Everyone seems to be off the deep end. First of all, contract negotiations are exceedingly more complex than anyone on this board (including and especially myself) understands. It is kinda like Dot Com millionaire in first class telling you how you should've flown that last leg. "I fly a lot, I know how this should be."

That being said, and after reviewing my own company's position: I will currently make an a$$ of myself and thow in my worthless .02.

DALPA cannot rollover. If management got it's way, it would carve them up and not worry about the other unions. If you start to make $ off of the pilot concessions, what leg do you have to stand on going to the others and saying "well, we aren't losing $ anymore and we're making an ok profit, but we think you should give up this much of your pay anyway." Ha, I'm laughing at myself as I write this.

DL Mgt not even negotiating is SCARY! I don't know what they are thinking, I have an idea, and it isn't good.

One way out of this would be ok, you want more than 20%. You can take 30% but give back 10% by direct donations into 401K (company gets the tax break on the 10%). Whatever working conditions/benies DALPA and mgt comes up with....and finally, CONTRACT IS EFFECTIVE 1ST OF THE MONTH THE MONTH AFTER CONTRACTS ARE RENEGOTIATED WITH MX, FA, CSM, NON-UNION LABOR MAKING MORE THAN LOWEST PAID PILOT, CUTTING SALARY A MINIMUM OF 20% FOR EACH.

But if you'd been listening to what the general has been saying and understand what is going on, DL mgt doesn't want to hear something rational at this point.

There has to be some kind of motivation for mgt to get the others to come to the table.

There is no bargaining in good faith. You need to get it in the contract.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A LUV pilot hired today will never make as much as a JBLU pillot hired today. I posted this eons ago about how the airline industry is turning into walmart types.

Hire someone at low wages give'm stock. Stock goes nuts because their costs are so low. Workers are happy. Big growth. Sam Walton was a genious (as was herb). Problem is that once the growth slows down, the new guys aren't as happy. They want more in wages...the cycle continues...until JBLU opens. And in 10-20 years, there will be another LCC that will be able to undercut JBLU.

The airline industry has changed. And unfortunately the pilots will be the ultimate losers if this scenario plays out. SWA and JBLU need the Legecy carriers to survive, otherwise there is no one to undercut. Put all 6 legecy carriers out of business and there will be 50,000 pilots applying to work for half the pay of SWA/JBLU for an airline that will under cut SWA and JBLU.

What would happen if Delta mgt got everything it wished for from all the unions...where would that put its CASM? Then you add all the $ from int'l flights with a CASM lower than JBLUs? Wouldn't that make you LCC pilots nervous? Well, if you're smart it would. Look at the AA #s. When the corner turns, they are going to jump down some throats, LCC and legacy if they don't match.

Well, let me ask this. What type of growth/financial stability/market share would SWA have if it had the highest CASM once this is all said and done?
 
Reality check...

350Driver,

I was simply pointing out that Delta is a much more respected carrier and I could not imagine anyone wanting to go to SWA over DAL if given the choice

Give me a break. Delta is a more respected carrier by whom?

1. Passengers? No. See Airline survey (not even in top 10)
2. Wall Street? No. See WSJ or any newspaper and stock price.
3. Pilots? No. See amount of applications for SWA.
4. Delta Employees? Wow, thats actually funny.
5. Losers like you. Yes. See all your General azz kissing looking for a LOR someday.
 
350DRIVER said:
Be fortunate you are at Delta and not at Southwest. The first page of this thread made it as clear as day. You can surely tell those who fly for SWA and those who do not by the posts on this board. It is always comical to see the differences between the pax who fly on luv and those who spend the extra money to step up to a Delta. General, DAL ain't going anywhere anytime soon and I praise your efforts and that of the entire DAL pilot group not to swoop to the lower rates of some carriers.. Give em he!! and I am sure all will work out for the best. I have many friends at Delta and I can only wish you all the best and as most do I stand behind the entire group.

I was simply pointing out that Delta is a much more respected carrier and I could not imagine anyone wanting to go to SWA over DAL if given the choice.

3 5 0

As long as opinions are being shared...I am on the other side of the fence of SWA vs. Delta. I'd much rather be in the bottom 10-20% of seniority at SWA than Delta.

I hope the pilots at Delta that want pilot jobs until age 60 have enough PIC time to apply elsewhere if bad stuff happens. It can happen to anyone. Don't think so, look at history. Every dominate major in the U.S. has declared B.K.

Southwest model nearing the end of its dominance? I find that unlikely. You have an employee group that is used to WORKING and not sitting on their butts. SWA is being emulated. Eventually the F/A thing will be worked out. Business model-- SWA vs. Delta, SWA definitely holds the advantage for long term employment. If you want to measure success by how many days off the senior guys at your chosen carrier have, you are short sighted.

If you judge only by what you see at the airport and not by business trends, you will be surprised by the changes every time. Delta more respected? Do you really think a pilot's perception of that will save the day in the end. When a pilot passes the minimum professionalism test so much more comes into play. Why then are Ted and Song going forward? I too was wanting to be at Delta when they were the "Delta Family", flying great routes, in great financial shape and making great money. Two of those four still exist and it will be down to one soon. You can complain all you want about the LCCs being like Walmart. But Walmart took over and put many other stores out of business, good luck fighting them.

BTW, I have friends at Delta as well. I too wish them the best, but most have blinders on. The smart ones are banking the extra money they are making now for the unpleasant changes around the corner.

Mark my words, "Financial health and business plan will have the greatest impact on your aviation career"

I counsel all furloughed buds at UAL, AA and, starting this year, at Delta to apply for SWA or JB.
 
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T45 and Flyboeingjets,

Are you guys really blind? We keep saying we are ready to negotiate----you can't just force pay cuts upon people with contracts. You guys need to get off your high horses and understand that we are willing to give pay cuts, and we are not blind to the situation. I am so glad that you guys would rather fly at Southwest-----yippie. I want to keep flying at Delta and eventually fly INTL flights----and to ever think that Delta will just close up ship is wrong, even if we do go Chap 11. Why don't the two of you go shower together and give each other back massages and extol Southwest-----we are waiting here to negotiate...

Bye Bye--General Lee;)
 
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General,

I'm not saying you or the Delta pilots are wrong. You are being made the bad guy by your CEO, no matter how nice he is in meetings with you. After all its just business to him and he wants to mold the company to his vision. It will continue to be a slow painful process as you guys duke it out. But I do think that EVERY carrier needs to be looking behind their back. Even SWA, JB.

I was responding to the comments made by another. I really do wish Delta well. But thru all the hype that gets posted on the board I thought I saw someone who could use a reality check.

Showering with that other guy?....Oh that's really funny...Oh, Uh, no thanks. You go first and tell me if you liked it.
 
Flyboeingjets,

Maybe that should not have been directed at you---but you did seem like you were in the "Southwest is wonderful and the answer to all of our problems SHOWER" with T45.

We are targeted by Grinstein, and he doesn't seem to want to negotiate---even though he does have extra flexibility that he chooses not to use with only one union. We are not the stubborn ones here---he is. We actually want to sit down and figure out what is best---but not only on our shoulders. Yes, we are paid more than the rest, and we should take the lion's share of the cuts---but not the only cuts (except the 3% stew cuts). That is ridiculous and I have read that even Wall St. analysts believe that Grinstein should take cuts NOW from us and go forward. (Sam Buttrick said that) I bet our cuts would be more than the first offer----and that's exactly what it was---a "first" offer. It is called negotiations. Sorry about the shower comment. (It was funny though.......I thought so anyway)

Bye Bye--General Lee;)
 
Part of the real problem here is corporate (non) governance.

The current American habit of taking only short-term gain into account is what is causing this.

Many stockholders want results NOW! They want to turn the stock in a shorter period of time for a profit.

They, in their typical American impatience, are not interested in becoming OWNERS of a company, and receiving dividends on their investment.

Taxes can play a part in this. In my view, the removal of the dividend double-tax was a very good thing, in that it removes an obstacle to companies paying out dividends. Therefore the dividends will be larger.

Removing the under-one-year capital gains tax may encourage short-term trading, which is seldom good for a company.


Now, to the airlines.

Since this incredible short-sightedness is playing out daily, it is only natural that management will play the game to suit their stockholders.

The attention given to short term success practically GUARANTEES long-term trouble.

Drunk now, hung over tomorrow.
Feast this month, fat next month.

Don't misunderstand - their is no excuse for this sort of profit-taking at the top. But it is not incompetence (not all, anyway) as much as it is a lack of values.

I think the airlines are just affected more because face it - aviation is expensive, very volatile in economic downturns, and unique in so many ways that other businesses don't have to worry about.

Do you think a restaurant chain could get fined several hundred thousand for using an improperly maintained oven?

Does it take 20-30,000 X 10 every time a senior person retires?

Nope.

I don't think the Delta pilots should give back a flamin' nickel until there is a definable plan, with EXPLICIT goals.

Holding the company to the fire over this pay issue is definitely the right thing to do. The company's reticence to give any details out can be taken as an indication that they want cuts for the sake of cuts. Then they will come back later and ask for more.

If they can't tell you how they are arriving at THEIR numbers, then how do they know that the DAL pilt's are not offering enough of a cut? Can't have it both ways.

Airline management groups have completely squandered any credibility that they have. This cred will have to be re-earned.

They will be trusted when they have proven themselves to be trustworthy.
 
General Lee said:
T45 and Flyboeingjets,

Are you guys really blind? We keep saying we are ready to negotiate----you can't just force pay cuts upon people with contracts. You guys need to get off your high horses and understand that we are willing to give pay cuts, and we are not blind to the situation. I am so glad that you guys would rather fly at Southwest-----yippie. I want to keep flying at Delta and eventually fly INTL flights----and to ever think that Delta will just close up ship is wrong, even if we do go Chap 11.
Bye Bye--General Lee;)

I see, you were responding to my post on the other thread. Am I on a high horse, I hope not. I know I could easily be in another situation with a different point of view. I would LOVE to have been hired by Delta. Wasn't available when you could have hired me so I don't know if it was even possible. I would LOVE to have been hired by UAL or AA as well. So my previous thoughts on the future of this industry WAS the same as everyone elses. But they have now changed and I see the future differently.

I meant to say RIGHT NOW, with the current environment, I would rather be at SWA. I know its hindsight and all, but I am trying to look to the future and figure out what would be better. I would prefer not to be at the bottom of the list at Delta for years and years. But a job at Delta would still be nice to have. :)
 
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Since we are ready to give now---it should be treated as an investment. Otherwise, we wouldn't be willing to be involved in MID-CONTRACT talks. We showed up, EARLY, to see what we could do. Having a plan is important---in any investment. We will know what Grinstein's plan in July apparently. But, we are willing to entertain negotiations NOW. We aren't saying "Screw you...we won't give a dime...." Nope. But, some people on here like to think we are....(T45) We started with our first offer (early--again---mid-contract talks---early) over 6 months ago---and that was our first offer. We also have given the company a lot of extras FOR FREE---please see MEC note again.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
You guys need to get off your high horses and understand that we are willing to give pay cuts, and we are not blind to the situation. I am so glad that you guys would rather fly at Southwest-----yippie.
That study originates from college students in Wichita, KS. Most of them have never left the state of Kansas.
And you have the nerve to tell others to get off of their high horse? Take a look in the mirror punk!

AMF
 
Xremeflyer,

Punk? You call'n me a punk? Whatever. My Wichita comment was a JOKE--ever heard of it? That's right--you are one. How would these college kids in Kansas know about all of the airlines in the survey---not many go to Wichita. They are comparing airlines with 57 airplanes (jetblue) to large legacy carriers with a heck of a lot more planes and exposure to passengers. Even Micheal Boyd slams them---but you didn't know that---did ya punk? You need to read more. Enjoy!

BYe BYe---General Lee;)
 
Whatever.
Clever comeback Private!
How would these college kids in Kansas know about all of the airlines in the survey---not many go to Wichita. They are comparing airlines with 57 airplanes (jetblue) to large legacy carriers with a heck of a lot more planes and exposure to passengers.
Are you as stupid as you want to be?
You need to read more.
What would you recommend Oh erudite one? More of your witty unbiased missives?
Thanks, I do very much enjoy crushing worthless turds like you.

AMF
 

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