Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[Superpilot92]

You aren't looking at what is happing around you. Times aren't great, and oil isn't getting cheaper. And, one facilitator of this deal could always back out--Air France---who is willing to give us (a combined us) $750 million EUROS (worth over $1 billion). That means an investor who isn't a hedge fund and someone who wants our airline to stick around. This deal needs to be done soon, and without it could spell doom or another trip to the BK court for all of us. Your DC9s and 742s would continue to bring down your profits at this oil price level, and Steenland decided to sell you out. Look around you and see what is happening. Don't worry, WHEN you do agree to our FAIR SLI, you will get a nice fat raise, better rules, and access to the best NASCAR events all around the South.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well GL another flawed outtake, NWA made more money than DAL did last year, right? Gasp, even with the dc9's? Cant be!! Oh and the 747-200s are doing just fine, actually we just resigned with DHL and just signed a deal to do more ground handleing for other cargo companies over in china = more $. By the way whats so exciting about Circle track racing? I am all for fast cars and drinking beer so if thats what its about i can see it, but if its just to watch cars drive around in circles, i dont know?

 

[General Lee]

Well GL another flawed outtake, NWA made more money than DAL did last year, right? Gasp, even with the dc9's? Cant be!! Oh and the 747-200s are doing just fine, actually we just resigned with DHL and just signed a deal to do more ground handleing for other cargo companies over in china = more $. By the way whats so exciting about Circle track racing? I am all for fast cars and drinking beer so if thats what its about i can see it, but if its just to watch cars drive around in circles, i dont know?

UPS is now parking their 742s and 741s. If they are doing it, do you think you are making such a great profit? JAL Cargo, All Nippon Cargo, Korean Air Cargo, are all parking their older 742s. Even Atlas Air is slowing disposing of them. Kalitta is keeping theirs, but they are now getting 744s. Why would those airlines be doing that? Are they just wrong? Maybe UPS doesn't make enough money?? Right? What if RA parks your 742s and replaces them with some of your 744s? That could happen, and replace the 744 routes with our 777s. Many Asian airlines are using 777s across the Pacific now. ANA has only 773s to the US from NRT. EVA Air flies them to JFK and LAX from TPE. Cathay flies 2 daily 773ERs from HKG to JFK now. Korean flies them from ICN to LAX, SFO, and a few others. Two engines with the same cargo space.

And as for NASCAR, it is mainly about the noise and the babes. Also, sometimes there are spectacular crashes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

You blinked.

No suicide bombers, just a pilot group that has dealt with far worse than you pups for a long time.

Heyas F4H,

Absolutely. I spoke DIRECTLY with those involved with the last SLI "offer".

The "within 1/2 percent" is bovine excrement. While it's true that most were within less than 1/2 percent, what it didn't mention that this statistic EXCLUDED 600 NWA guys stapled to the bottom, because the ratio wasn't even. With the ratio they wanted to use, they ran out of DAL guys, so all the remaining NWA guys get stapled.

To their credit, our guys said "no way" (NOT the thing you'd expect a GB guy who was "in it only for himself" to do). The DAL guys like to claim that they are all for a percentage ratio, but when a PURE percentage ratio was offered, one that has NWA and DAL guys mixed at BOTH ends of the list, the DAL guys refused.

It was a crappy deal ALL around. 3 BB guys, 1 GB guy and 1 RB guy on the MC thought it was crap. ALL the guys on the MEC, who normally can't agree what color the sky is, thought it was crap.

Nuff said.

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

We have 6 day INTL trips (up to 40 hours), and even 9 day trips for crazy people who don't like their wife or kids. We also have 1 day turns(ATL-Guatemala City-ATL), 2 day trips (Bogota, Caracas), 3 day trips worth over 20 hours (ATL--Athens, Prague, Vienna, Zurich etc), 4 day trips worth about 20 hours but with 36 hour layovers down south in warm weather---Rio, Buenos Aires, Santiago, etc) just on the INTL 767-300ER in ATL. NYC has the same, and our 767-400 (765) in ATL has plenty of great trips. The 777 in ATL has a 3 day to NRT worth 28 hours, and other trips to Shanghai, Dubai, Tel Aviv, Seoul, etc. Lot's of variety for people in ATL.


Bye Bye--General Lee

See to each their own. As far as the pensions go you guys only have higher pay because you sold out the pensions. NWA would have higher pay if they had done the same thing you guys did. So that argument doesnt add up. Plus you did get something out of it, those 2000 guys are GONE and in the end that helps. If we had the top 2000 guys bail here at nwa i could hold dc9 capt as a newhire.

 

[Superpilot92]

UPS is now parking their 742s and 741s. If they are doing it, do you think you are making such a great profit? JAL Cargo, All Nippon Cargo, Korean Air Cargo, are all parking their older 742s. Even Atlas Air is slowing disposing of them. Kalitta is keeping theirs, but they are now getting 744s. Why would those airlines be doing that? Are they just wrong? Maybe UPS doesn't make enough money?? Right? What if RA parks your 742s and replaces them with some of your 744s? That could happen, and replace the 744 routes with our 777s. Thats the rumor i have heard, and it was mentioned by some of the fleet gurus at NATCO that one of the ideas was once the 787 shows up they are considering the options of converting those 400s into freighters to increase efficiency, etc. Many Asian airlines are using 777s across the Pacific now.

And as for NASCAR, it is mainly about the noise and the babes. Also, sometimes there are spectacular crashes.Well i guess i have to go to one in person then because watching it on tv, sucks. Now i do enjoy a good drag race event every now and a gain. Talk about noise and babes!!:beer:


Bye Bye--General Lee

Discuss

 

[General Lee]

Heyas F4H,

Absolutely. I spoke DIRECTLY with those involved with the last SLI "offer".

The "within 1/2 percent" is bovine excrement. While it's true that most were within less than 1/2 percent, what it didn't mention that this statistic EXCLUDED 600 NWA guys stapled to the bottom, because the ratio wasn't even. With the ratio they wanted to use, they ran out of DAL guys, so all the remaining NWA guys get stapled.

To their credit, our guys said "no way" (NOT the thing you'd expect a GB guy who was "in it only for himself" to do). The DAL guys like to claim that they are all for a percentage ratio, but when a PURE percentage ratio was offered, one that has NWA and DAL guys mixed at BOTH ends of the list, the DAL guys refused.

It was a crappy deal ALL around. 3 BB guys, 1 GB guy and 1 RB guy on the MC thought it was crap. ALL the guys on the MEC, who normally can't agree what color the sky is, thought it was crap.

Nuff said.

Nu

We are a bigger airline, with more pilots. You can't go 1 for 1. There has to be some sort of mix, and there would be a lot of one group somewhere on the list, since we don't have an equal number of pilots. You still have your pensions, and you would benefit from our rules and a pay raise, along with new bases and more widebodies. Can you see the inequity yet? What are you bringing to the table? Lutefusk? You are bringing old planes and a dream about a mythical bird named "dreamliner". You don't have an equal offering. Really. Your DC9s and 742s will go away soon. If you got rid of all of those pilots, how would you look? How many of you will need to downgrade thanks to more senior DC9s Captains moving to larger planes? Who will take it in the shorts? We are getting more planes, and NOT parking many of our current ones (15 total that have lease expirations). We have a net GAIN after it is all said and done. You will have a huge loss if high gas causes more parkings. You need to get that into your heads. IF it is true that the bottom 600 would be NWA pilots, would they be DC9 pilots? What if NWA (or the new Delta) decided to park those planes? If they park them, do you think Delta guys who have never flown them should be furloughed? Is that really fair? If the advaned plans are to park them soon, should our guys go with them?



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[johnsonrod]

How about we all settle down and let the chips fall where they may... Nobody on these boards has ANY CONTROL over the situation. You are wasting energy. Sit back and enjoy the ride....

 

[MJ42]

We are a bigger airline, with more pilots. You can't go 1 for 1. There has to be some sort of mix, and there would be a lot of one group somewhere on the list, since we don't have an equal number of pilots. You still have your pensions, and you would benefit from our rules and a pay raise, along with new bases and more widebodies. Can you see the inequity yet? What are you bringing to the table? Lutefusk? You are bringing old planes and a dream about a mythical bird named "dreamliner". You don't have an equal offering. Really. Your DC9s and 742s will go away soon. If you got rid of all of those pilots, how would you look? How many of you will need to downgrade thanks to more senior DC9s Captains moving to larger planes? Who will take it in the shorts? We are getting more planes, and NOT parking many of our current ones (15 total that have lease expirations). We have a net GAIN after it is all said and done. You will have a huge loss if high gas causes more parkings. You need to get that into your heads. IF it is true that the bottom 600 would be NWA pilots, would they be DC9 pilots? What if NWA (or the new Delta) decided to park those planes? If they park them, do you think Delta guys who have never flown them should be furloughed? Is that really fair? If the advaned plans are to park them soon, should our guys go with them?



Bye Bye--General Lee

Those senior DC-9 guys are more likely to retire, a lot hate glass and won't fly anything automated.

 

[Superpilot92]

We are a bigger airline, with more pilots. You can't go 1 for 1. There has to be some sort of mix, and there would be a lot of one group somewhere on the list, since we don't have an equal number of pilots. You still have your pensions, and you would benefit from our rules and a pay raise, along with new bases and more widebodies. Can you see the inequity yet? What are you bringing to the table? Lutefusk? You are bringing old planes and a dream about a mythical bird named "dreamliner". You don't have an equal offering. Really. Your DC9s and 742s will go away soon. If you got rid of all of those pilots, how would you look? How many of you will need to downgrade thanks to more senior DC9s Captains moving to larger planes? Who will take it in the shorts? We are getting more planes, and NOT parking many of our current ones (15 total that have lease expirations). We have a net GAIN after it is all said and done. You will have a huge loss if high gas causes more parkings. You need to get that into your heads. IF it is true that the bottom 600 would be NWA pilots, would they be DC9 pilots? What if NWA (or the new Delta) decided to park those planes? If they park them, do you think Delta guys who have never flown them should be furloughed? Is that really fair? If the advaned plans are to park them soon, should our guys go with them?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Why is it that the DAL guys always fail to mention or discuss the fact that you guys are in fact parking planes as well. Your MD80s are just as susceptible to being parked as the dc9s. Our -9s are paid for (= good) and the -50s aren't much smaller than your dc-9-80's not to mention the fuel bill isnt much of a difference.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why is it that the DAL guys always fail to mention or discuss the fact that you guys are in fact parking planes as well. Your MD80s are just as susceptible to being parked as the dc9s. Our -9s are paid for (= good) and the -50s aren't much smaller than your dc-9-80's not to mention the fuel bill isnt much of a difference.

Because it isn't true.

I was the first to post that the 88's was threatened and everyone gave me heck for it. You say you have the DAL EF&A merger analysis document. Just look at page 20.

As you can see the MD88 gets about 30% more ASM's per gallon. You will also see the DC9 is the least efficient aircraft on a seat mile basis in operation at either carrier, including their 50 seat RJ subsidiaries.

 

[Superpilot92]

Because it isn't true.

I was the first to post that the 88's was threatened and everyone gave me heck for it. You say you have the DAL EF&A merger analysis document. Just look at page 20.

As you can see the MD88 gets about 30% more ASM's per gallon. You will also see the DC9 is the least efficient aircraft on a seat mile basis in operation at either carrier, including their 50 seat RJ subsidiaries.

So you're saying DAL isnt parking planes?

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=12103

"Delta Air Lines and United Airlines yesterday announced a domestic downsizing to help negotiate rising fuel costs and a slowing US economy, with each carrier planning to ground 15-20 mainline aircraft this year and DL also aiming to slash its workforce by approximately 2,000"

Like i said before i cant wait to fly with you guys! Its to bad we wont fly together though because you always have such great stories!! Remember in the end we are all on the same team, right?

 

[Noserider76]

Our -9s are paid for (= good) and the -50s aren't much smaller than your dc-9-80's not to mention the fuel bill isnt much of a difference.

"Paid for" usually means much easier to park. If you park one with a lease you still have to pay it or find someone who will. The fuel burn is surprisingly quite a bit more for a smaller payload on the -9s as well. Realistically you have to look at their age and fuel efficiency because oil shows no signs of going anywhere but up. If DL is grounding -88s now, they'll have a field day killing off an aircraft they got rid of 16 years ago (DL flew the first DC-9 revenue flight by the way I think 1966?).

I'd like to see it made very hard for the company to ground them without a replacement paying the same same or more and impossible (read operationally much too painful) for them to furlough pilots from either side. They may not want to tie their hands that way but they want the merger pretty badly it seems and that's probably one of the thorniest issues in the pilot integration.

 

[~~~^~~~]

So you're saying DAL isnt parking planes?

Remember in the end we are all on the same team, right?

No, I did not say that and you know it. A few 88's are bring parked and I pointed out previously that they were threatened.

I said your own sources indicate the DC9 is 30% or more less efficient than a MD88, or CRJ70, and less efficient than a CRJ200.

Don't come over here and play Kum By Yah while trying to misrepresent what others write.

We are not on the same team until it is determined who gets furloughed when your airplanes get parked. No disrespect, but your guys wanted DAL 767 pilots furloughed to make room for DC9 displacements and DAL guys just as earnestly seek to avoid that possibility to the extent possible.

I'm hopeful you can keep your jets and Delta can keep theirs.

 

[Superpilot92]

No I did not say that and you know it. A few 88's are bring parked and I pointed out previously that they were threatened.

I said your own sources indicate the DC9 is 30% or more less efficient than a MD88, or CRJ70, and less efficient than a CRJ200.

Don't come over here and play Kum By Yah while trying to misrepresent what others write.

We are not on the same team until it is determined who gets furloughed when your airplanes get parked.

Look i can sense your frustration and concern, its nerve racking watching alot of this stuff going on but there isnt any point in getting bent out of shape. Can you control any of this? I cant! Why do you fight so much against being a unified pilot group, the all about ME attitude is precisely whats wrong with this industry. I personally know that if i get furloughed, in the end it will all work out. Flying isnt everything and you of all people should know that. You have a great back up plan why get bent up and worry about this crap? And to clarify, WE are on the SAME team, its called ALPA, did you forget? Relax my man, hopefully your boy RA decides to keep more Diesel 9's around and cuts more regional flying instead. The DC9 is a great airplane and does a he1l of a job in the 100+ seat markets. In the NW you need a plane like the 9 that can carry alot and still get out of some of the airports we go to.

Relax have a beer it will all be over soon!!:nuts:

 

[JAM-BRO]

Gen

You are a fokin moron... What do we bring? Ask RA what do we bring.... I wonder why he wants this so bad... Wasn't your stand-alone plan so bullet proof. Stop with the broken record!

We are a bigger airline, with more pilots. You can't go 1 for 1. There has to be some sort of mix, and there would be a lot of one group somewhere on the list, since we don't have an equal number of pilots. You still have your pensions, and you would benefit from our rules and a pay raise, along with new bases and more widebodies. Can you see the inequity yet? What are you bringing to the table? Lutefusk? You are bringing old planes and a dream about a mythical bird named "dreamliner". You don't have an equal offering. Really. Your DC9s and 742s will go away soon. If you got rid of all of those pilots, how would you look? How many of you will need to downgrade thanks to more senior DC9s Captains moving to larger planes? Who will take it in the shorts? We are getting more planes, and NOT parking many of our current ones (15 total that have lease expirations). We have a net GAIN after it is all said and done. You will have a huge loss if high gas causes more parkings. You need to get that into your heads. IF it is true that the bottom 600 would be NWA pilots, would they be DC9 pilots? What if NWA (or the new Delta) decided to park those planes? If they park them, do you think Delta guys who have never flown them should be furloughed? Is that really fair? If the advaned plans are to park them soon, should our guys go with them?



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

This industry needs more pilots like Superpilot92. These threads are starting to get worse than the uSAPa threads.

 

[Superpilot92]

This industry needs more pilots like Superpilot92. These threads are starting to get worse than the uSAPa threads.

Thanks, but in reality everyone should act like this We are our own worst enemies when it comes to most of our issues. Until we actually start working together again then we we wont be able to fix much at all. This career has been beat down by mgmt and its our jobs to pick it back up. We are the only ones that can change it. one place to start some change is right here on these forums and spread it around. Will it happen? Don't know but i for one am going to try and change some mentalities. Change is definitely needed, thats one thing i think we can all agree on.

 

[Tref]

You mean your minute language that forces the parking of rjs if you park DC-9s? You're serious? You can't see the way around that, and you don't think that the Delta MEC, who BTW has been on the inside of this deal from day 1, has gotten a peak at the plan in order to set up their moves?

Keep calling us greedy and big headed, while your MEC got the majority of the money offered, a more than fair list integration, and better career earnings from it. You have put yourself in this position, and you will now see the result of it. You have left the Delta leadership no choice but to defend itself, and we will. My prediction is that your MEC will eventually succumb to a Delta-style list. If they do not, the -9s will be parked, the 787 orders cancelled, the 74-200s parked, furloughs announced, rjs parked and "sold" to some feeder who will fly them under Delta colors, and then a PID established and arbitration set. After all, it's what you wanted.

This in NO way makes Delta pilots arrogant--its what you wanted, scabby--it's what you wanted, or slimy--it's what you wanted. We are merely playing the cards you "misdealt" from your stacked deck.

Deal with it.

Or were you talking about merger policy? That will be the next lecture.

I was talking about the merger policy. Will you be giving the lecture?

I'd like to get you all POed because your tough guy rants amuse me, but alas I have better things to do.

 

[Cessna340]

Gen

You are a fokin moron... What do we bring? Ask RA what do we bring.... I wonder why he wants this so bad... Wasn't your stand-alone plan so bullet proof. Stop with the broken record!

JAM-BRO,
I'm not so sure RA "wants this so bad". He gets his orders from his boss, the BOD. They rep. those that want to make some off their $$$ back. He will do as he is told, that is his job... if he wants it.

 

[General Lee]

Those senior DC-9 guys are more likely to retire, a lot hate glass and won't fly anything automated.

If that is true, it will help out your junior pilots a lot.


Bye Bye--General Lee